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On December 03 2015 02:23 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 01:53 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 01:51 Plansix wrote:
Total war only works if there is a nation or sovereign power that can surrender or sue for peace. Without that, the war never ends and just keep chasing the problem around a region that dislikes the west. Terrorism specifically avoids the burned of being tired to a specific population or nation for this exact reason. ISIS controls an area, but they are more akin to warlords than any modern nation. Even if you kill the vast majority of ISIS members and their families, those that remain will simply recruit from another poor, disenfranchised region. It’s like trying to destroy the drug trade through military means. Its just a game of wack a mole that doesn’t’ really ever end. And this is completely contradicted by the historical record. There is no shortage of examples where a superior military power applied total war and completely subjugated a hostile population. Sorry to be a downer, but I would ask Israel about that approach and how that worked out. I think they have a bit of experience with that kind of thing.
Israel didn't, and they still have a war on their hands. But it's not the fault of them failing to employ genocide.
Yes, massacring civilian populations works at a certain point. But at that point you've become as bad as your enemies and the "why" of fighting has disappeared. Yes, violence benefits the violent. If nothing else, I hope we have learned this.
Two decades ago there were only a handful of Islamic terrorists targeting the US. They succeeded spectacularly, not because they killed 3k people (as if they give a shit), but because we took the bait and spawned a thousand two bit AQ knock-offs... and now one really successful one.
Terrorists aren't just mindless killing machines. Sure, there's some of that. Not a lot of point to Fort Hood or whatever. But the general aims of planned attacks are clear. 9/11 provoked a global war and drew millions of sympathizers and hundreds of thousands of recruits. The Paris attacks have increased the power of the anti-refugee right in the West.
The terrorists get that confrontation feeds them, and saps the West. They are winning the war because we keep not learning, keep thinking that there is a violent solution to this problem.
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:24 oneofthem wrote:
daunt has this idea that the radical islamic presence in the middle east is representative and dominant of these societies. it would be like seeing black panthers and then recommending nuking all the projects. Dominant? No. Significant? Absolutely.
you are taking far too static a view of the situation. i would agree that some muslim society dysfunction and the distinct islamist movement are big problems, but the units of enemy are not muslim, muslim states or muslim societies.
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On December 03 2015 02:38 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:24 oneofthem wrote:
daunt has this idea that the radical islamic presence in the middle east is representative and dominant of these societies. it would be like seeing black panthers and then recommending nuking all the projects. Dominant? No. Significant? Absolutely. you are taking far too static a view of the situation. i would agree that some muslim society dysfunction and the distinct islamist movement are big problems, but the units of enemy are not muslim, muslim states or muslim societies.
If anything, my post was too static in that I failed to note that radicals aren't dominant in the Middle East "now."
BTW, Trump is on Alex Jones's show, which should be amusing: http://www.infowars.com/watch-alex-jones-show/
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On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine.
What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation?
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On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation?
What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation?
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United States42775 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation?
Eliminate? That's a very high standard for success. What evidence is there that education will eliminate illiteracy?
People that share our values don't typically try to kill us unless we're actively trying to kill them. Promoting and fostering our values abroad will, at the very least, give them some nice enemy sympathizers to kill in their own countries without needing to come all the way over here. And even if it does absolutely nothing it is still a success when compared to the current strategy of fueling the fire.
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On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation?
Any number of historical conquests?
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United States42775 Posts
On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests?
How many of those were comparable to the current situation where the enemy is an ideology that exists globally and can be spread remotely?
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On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests?
There are equal number of those that failed in spectacular fashion or created an environment for larger wars a generation later. How man subjugated populations have risen up to overthrow their foreign rulers and that as lead to generations of animosity and violence?
Please prove to me with overwhelming and convincing evidence that this will lead to a safer and more prosperous US compare to the current plan. And that the threat of Islamic terrorism rises to the level of requiring us declaring total war and turning our entire nation to a war machine to take over and subjugate the middle east.
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On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests?
Oh, so you want to purge Islam off the face of the earth. My apologies of comparing Trump and his sympathizers to fascists.
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On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests?
Though, as you point out, this requires a level of ruthlessness and willful cruelty that is now considered beyond the pale. Sure, we could wipe out ISIS and everyone who sympathizes with them. We could destroy entire villages that gave us shit. But hell, even ISIS tends to not put entire villages to death. At the point your brutality has eclipsed your enemy, you have given up any moral justification for war.
The whole convincing folks of Western values thing seems like a better bet. Let's add that it's remarkable how much appeal the West really has. Even our worse traits (hedonism etc) are pretty attractive to people.
Putting it another way, look at the history of US interactions with pretty much any Latin American country. Back when we were focused on killing our enemies, we kept making more. When we gave up on that (mostly through boredom and distraction, and partly due to confidence) we actually started to make friends.
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On December 03 2015 02:53 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests? Oh, so you want to purge Islam off the face of the earth. My apologies of comparing Trump and his sympathizers to fascists.
My understanding is that xDaunt advocates for sweeping, thorough, conclusive attacks on designated areas that are under ISIS control. Essentially, there should not be areas on a map that indicate ISIS control. With proper warning, we should be able to wash our hands of the guilt associated with civilian casualties.
Sure, you can't eliminate Islamic extremism. But the fact that there are large areas we can circle on a map that are under ISIS control is really embarrassing. It is a massive failure.
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On December 03 2015 02:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests? How many of those were comparable to the current situation where the enemy is an ideology that exists globally and can be spread remotely?
None is precisely the same given changes in technology. All that's really needed is the addition of robust intelligence and police services (which are probably already in place).
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On December 03 2015 02:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:53 Nyxisto wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests? Oh, so you want to purge Islam off the face of the earth. My apologies of comparing Trump and his sympathizers to fascists. My understanding is that xDaunt advocates for sweeping, thorough, conclusive attacks on designated areas that are under ISIS control. Essentially, there should not be areas on a map that indicate ISIS control. With proper warning, we should be able to wash our hands of the guilt associated with civilian casualties. Sure, you can't eliminate Islamic extremism. But the fact that there are large areas we can circle on a map that are under ISIS control is really embarrassing. It is a massive failure.
I haven't advocated for anything. I merely have suggested what is necessary "to win." Regardless, it is clear that as long as ISIS exists and holds territory, we're not winning.
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Rakka has hundreds of thousands of citizens and about what, 20-30k Isis soldiers? Good luck with the urban warfare. They don't have shields above their houses saying "Isis resides here". You're going to kill more innocent people in that city alone than Isis would be killing over the next twenty years.
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On December 03 2015 02:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:53 Nyxisto wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests? Oh, so you want to purge Islam off the face of the earth. My apologies of comparing Trump and his sympathizers to fascists. My understanding is that xDaunt advocates for sweeping, thorough, conclusive attacks on designated areas that are under ISIS control. Essentially, there should not be areas on a map that indicate ISIS control. With proper warning, we should be able to wash our hands of the guilt associated with civilian casualties. Sure, you can't eliminate Islamic extremism. But the fact that there are large areas we can circle on a map that are under ISIS control is really embarrassing. It is a massive failure.
The only way they are losing that terrorist is with an invasion or local forces pushing them out. A full scale invasion of US and EU troops will require them to stay in the area for years, if not decades. That is the problem, you can't just push them out and then go home. Most of the people fighting for ISIS have lived for decades under dictator rule, they will just wait you out until the political will to occupy the territory is gone. Then they take it back.
On December 03 2015 03:02 Nyxisto wrote:
Rakka has hundreds of thousand citizens and about what, 20-30k Isis soldiers? Good luck with the urban warfare. They don't have shields above their houses saying "Isis resides here". You're going to kill more innocent people in that city alone than Isis would be killing over the next twenty years.
This is also part of the problem, that ISIS is a very small number of people in a larger population of people that have no ability to fight them, having lived for decades under dictator rule.
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On December 03 2015 02:53 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests? Though, as you point out, this requires a level of ruthlessness and willful cruelty that is now considered beyond the pale. Sure, we could wipe out ISIS and everyone who sympathizes with them. We could destroy entire villages that gave us shit. But hell, even ISIS tends to not put entire villages to death. At the point your brutality has eclipsed your enemy, you have given up any moral justification for war. The whole convincing folks of Western values thing seems like a better bet. Let's add that it's remarkable how much appeal the West really has. Even our worse traits (hedonism etc) are pretty attractive to people. Putting it another way, look at the history of US interactions with pretty much any Latin American country. Back when we were focused on killing our enemies, we kept making more. When we gave up on that (mostly through boredom and distraction, and partly due to confidence) we actually started to make friends.
We live in the world of the internet and the mass dissemination of ideas. We have been in this world for nearly two decades now. If anything, radical Islam is more of a problem now than it was two decades ago. This suggests to me that the superiority of western liberal culture is not enough to win in the short term, and probably not in the long term.
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On December 03 2015 03:00 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:57 Mohdoo wrote:On December 03 2015 02:53 Nyxisto wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests? Oh, so you want to purge Islam off the face of the earth. My apologies of comparing Trump and his sympathizers to fascists. My understanding is that xDaunt advocates for sweeping, thorough, conclusive attacks on designated areas that are under ISIS control. Essentially, there should not be areas on a map that indicate ISIS control. With proper warning, we should be able to wash our hands of the guilt associated with civilian casualties. Sure, you can't eliminate Islamic extremism. But the fact that there are large areas we can circle on a map that are under ISIS control is really embarrassing. It is a massive failure. I haven't advocated for anything. I merely have suggested what is necessary "to win." Regardless, it is clear that as long as ISIS exists and holds territory, we're not winning.
Out of curiosity, what was your position about the war in Iraq in 2003?
It's funny that people just won't learn that you don't solve stuff with bombs and tanks only. It has been over six decades that America did its last major war that was remotely succesfull in its consequences, and yet you always have those hawkish people urging to bomb the shit out of the bad guys because that will solve everything.
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On December 03 2015 03:05 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 02:53 Yoav wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:45 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2015 02:42 xDaunt wrote:On December 03 2015 02:37 Yoav wrote:
Kasich is right (his pussyfooting on refugees aside). We need to fight terrorism not with military power but with propaganda and with shows of goodwill. The US wants to be the world's moral exemplar, respected by all. That means we have to start acting like the grown-up. Convince the world that the West is not at war with Islam. Deprive terrorism of its lifeblood and let it wither on the vine. What evidence is there that Western culture and propaganda will eliminate radical Islam at all, much less within a generation? What evidences is there that violence will remove it within a generation? Any number of historical conquests? Though, as you point out, this requires a level of ruthlessness and willful cruelty that is now considered beyond the pale. Sure, we could wipe out ISIS and everyone who sympathizes with them. We could destroy entire villages that gave us shit. But hell, even ISIS tends to not put entire villages to death. At the point your brutality has eclipsed your enemy, you have given up any moral justification for war. The whole convincing folks of Western values thing seems like a better bet. Let's add that it's remarkable how much appeal the West really has. Even our worse traits (hedonism etc) are pretty attractive to people. Putting it another way, look at the history of US interactions with pretty much any Latin American country. Back when we were focused on killing our enemies, we kept making more. When we gave up on that (mostly through boredom and distraction, and partly due to confidence) we actually started to make friends. We live in the world of the internet and the mass dissemination of ideas. We have been in this world for nearly two decades now. If anything, radical Islam is more of a problem now than it was two decades ago. This suggests to me that the superiority of western liberal culture is not enough to win in the short term, and probably not in the long term.
That is because we invaded Iraq and created this amazing power vacuum. And the threat of Islamic terrorism has not risen above that of domestic terrorism.
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Yesterday I saw a recording of a radio show from september 12 2001 in which a woman called in and told the host that she saw muslims celebrating/rioting after the attacks. Trump isn't that stupid guys.
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EPT
