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On November 13 2015 04:33 Plansix wrote: [quote] It comes from listening to the people who are protesting or talking to people who experience racism. And accepting that you(if you are white) don't' experience systematic racism and can't fully understand it. But that process is hard and requires a lot of introspection and a general acceptable that you benefited from an unfair system. And that the fact that racism exists doesn't diminish your personal struggles, but those struggles are not an argument against why racism isn't an issue.
But mostly you need to be open to listening.
And here lies the great hypocrisy of the antiracist/PC movement. I, as the outsider who is afflicted with white heterosexual male privilege, am automatically disqualified from questioning the foundation of the platform of the proponents of the current antiracist/PC movement. If I voice anydissent, I am automatically branded a racist (or whatever-ist), thus no one should listen to me. Nevertheless, I am obliged to be "open to listening" to some of the most intolerant and illiberal assholes in the country today.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Everyone is at least a little bit racist, even minorities against their own minority group. It's just how the human brain works, and it doesn't make you a bad person.
On the other hand it does make you a jerk if you refuse to admit it and take steps to correct your own subconscious racial prejudices.
Also if you are too sensitive about the word "racism" to engage in a robust intellectual debate on the subject we can just call it "implicit bias" instead. I wouldn't want you to take offense, because we all know how annoyed you are with people who take offense at small things like terminology : )
Maybe you haven't noticed, but I've been heavily engaged in the debate. I'm more than happy to point out how intellectually and morally bankrupt these people are.
From prior posts it looks like you have a big issue with the "over use" of the term racism. You're too focused on the semantics, rather than the extensive evidence that 1) people routinely operate under subconscious racial biases, 2) if they ignore this and assume that their decisions and actions are race neutral it causes them to treat others differently based on race, and 3) if people admit 1) and 2), they can counteract their subconscious racial biases.
It really shouldn't matter what word is used to describe it.
Of course large portions of my arguments focus on the semantics of the issue. The opposition has branded me a "racist" simply because I disagree with them. And they chose that word purposefully. Racist is such a charged word that merely being labeled a racist results in automatic disqualification of your opinions (and beyond that, potential alienation in society). Their gratuitous use of "racist" lets them completely dodge any and all debate on the merits of what they're trying to accomplish. Hence, their aforementioned intellectual and moral bankruptcy....
And I'm more than happy to talk about innate biases and prejudices. You're talking to the guy who infamously said that stereotyping is a crude form of statistics. The other side doesn't want to have that discussion, though.
"Being a racist" and "doing/saying racist things" are not one in the same, though you can't seem to understand the distinction.
Can you please explain the difference? Is it just the addition that racists not only say and do racist things, but also at least think them, even if there's no verbal/ physical verification?
I am not a racist, I think racist things at times. I'm must aware of them and avoid acting on them. Like if I write a short story, the majority my characters start out as white because I am white and biased to make characters like me. But I am aware of that and make an effort to fix that.
This isn't racism or even racial bias, though. It's writing being writer-centric.
It's natural, expected, and unavoidable that a writer's work will contain what they know. Of course, there are writers that will go above and beyond in researching unknown things heavily, but that will always come down to time, effort, and money. And, frankly, most writers (especially ones who are not notable) will have little-to-no RoI in expanding their reference pools.
Not to mention that most writers are average or mediocre.
Now, you could argue the fact that, say, North American and European writing is disproportionately dominated by white people, or that there is a severe lack of cultural exposure in many areas that limits knowledge. And you can certainly criticize writers that have time and money for not challenging themselves (in more ways than just this).
But I wouldn't expect a white middle-class person to be able to write about other cultures, any more than I'd expect a suburban kid to be able to write about a farmer's life, unless they've experienced them or taken time to research fully.
I have to agree, not having different race characters in fiction doesnt really mean anything. If its an issue then you really are overly sensitive to the issue. Infact patronizingly so even if it is well intentioned.
One thing that separates me from most liberals is that I am tired of the PC bullshit that doesn't actually help anything. That isn't to say some conservatives don't take things too far, but a lot of times it's just ridiculous how people can get with their political correctness.
I'd elaborate but I'd end up on a possible tangent and I have a headache right now so... maybe next time.
On November 13 2015 11:16 Souma wrote: I'm racist.
One thing that separates me from most liberals is that I am tired of the PC bullshit that doesn't actually help anything. That isn't to say some conservatives don't take things too far, but a lot of times it's just ridiculous how people can get with their political correctness.
I'd elaborate but I'd end up on a possible tangent and I have a headache right now so... maybe next time.
Goddamn. Why would you admit such a thing? All it does is cheapen the word. I can't think of a better time to be a real racist than today.
I think this video beautifully captures what is wrong with these black-led anti-racism crusades. There is a complete lack of accountability. Any time someone brings up issues with black culture or instances where black people are racist, they are quickly shushed. The prevalence of racism in black communities is always refuted with reasons why they aren't to blame for various white-induced social barriers to social/financial mobility.
But that wouldn't fit the narrative of being 100% a victim
Pardon the pun, but what people refuse to acknowledge is that it isn't black and white, it's shades of grey.
I think this video beautifully captures what is wrong with these black-led anti-racism crusades. There is a complete lack of accountability. Any time someone brings up issues with black culture or instances where black people are racist, they are quickly shushed. The prevalence of racism in black communities is always refuted with reasons why they aren't to blame for various white-induced social barriers to social/financial mobility.
But that wouldn't fit the narrative of being 100% a victim
Pardon the pun, but what people refuse to acknowledge is that it isn't black and white, it's shades of grey.
But I thought we just kept pointing youtube videos as proof of our point of view and disregard everything else. Confirmation bias at its finest.
On November 13 2015 11:16 Souma wrote: I'm racist.
One thing that separates me from most liberals is that I am tired of the PC bullshit that doesn't actually help anything. That isn't to say some conservatives don't take things too far, but a lot of times it's just ridiculous how people can get with their political correctness.
I'd elaborate but I'd end up on a possible tangent and I have a headache right now so... maybe next time.
Goddamn. Why would you admit such a thing? All it does is cheapen the word. I can't think of a better time to be a real racist than today.
I think this video beautifully captures what is wrong with these black-led anti-racism crusades. There is a complete lack of accountability. Any time someone brings up issues with black culture or instances where black people are racist, they are quickly shushed. The prevalence of racism in black communities is always refuted with reasons why they aren't to blame for various white-induced social barriers to social/financial mobility.
Maybe it would be helpful if we used the term prejudiced to describe the behavior of a black man shouting at an Asian woman to "go back where she came from," and racist to describe behaviors or actions that are part of systemic discrimination. Racism, nowadays, mostly refers to social violence perpetrated against disenfranchised groups by systems of power. That is (probably) why the black students in that video were like, "no no, you don't get it" to the poor girl talking about some of the awful experiences she has had as a foreigner here. It is also why black people "can't be racist." That is not to say, however, that black people cannot perpetuate the racist systems that they are embedded in, unknowingly or not.
Anyone can be guilty of bigotry, but only the the dominate race is immune to the systematic prejudice we call racism. And its all relative. White people are not cannot suffer under racism in the US, but could in China. When someone is racist, they are feeding into that system, even if they are not fully aware they are.
On November 13 2015 11:56 Plansix wrote: Anyone can be guilty of bigotry, but only the the dominate race is immune to the systematic prejudice we call racism. And its all relative. White people are not cannot suffer under racism in the US, but could in China. When someone is racist, they are feeding into that system, even if they are not fully aware they are.
I'm going to ahead and disagree here. In the example in the youtube video the victim was a recent immigrant from another country who was abused in a language that was foreign to her. She's also female and not especially big. I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that the black person who was shouting abuse at her in their own tongue in their own country from their vehicle was very much in a position of power over her.
It's not as simple as dominant and subordinate and if it were then the mixed race guy at the top would have shown that it was solved. Power is a very fluid concept.
On November 13 2015 12:25 Souma wrote: I honestly don't know what the definition of "racism" is these days, but I make a lot of tasteless racial jokes and get called racist for it~
There's a pretty involved and, to be frank, silly semantic battle being fought over the term "racism" whenever it gets invoked by parties who understand it differently. Some maintain that the term is only appropriate when a dominant hierarchical group discriminates based on race, whereas others defer to the canon, typical definition that refers merely to a discrimination based on race, power structure in support or not. I think the latter makes more sense but I can see why those without my privileges would argue otherwise.
On November 13 2015 11:56 Plansix wrote: Anyone can be guilty of bigotry, but only the the dominate race is immune to the systematic prejudice we call racism. And its all relative. White people are not cannot suffer under racism in the US, but could in China. When someone is racist, they are feeding into that system, even if they are not fully aware they are.
Curious - are you saying white people can't be the victims of racism? Or are you defining racism to be present if and only if it's systematic oppression?
On November 13 2015 12:22 heliusx wrote: Nah I'll just use the word racist as it has been defined since forever.
The definition has changed hugely over the years, largely as a result of the perpetrators of racism no longer being solely in charge of what counts. Hell, literally the same thing happened with rape. We've gone from it not counting if the person was in a relationship with her etc to "no means no", largely because a lot of rape victims were allowed to help shape the definition.
Many white people thought slavery wasn't racist, Many white people thought that segregation wasn't racist, both took violent struggles for those white people to see otherwise. Forgive us POC if we have little regard for what white people think is racist.
Here in Germany "rape in marriage" wasn't a thing legally until the mid 90's and it was only changed against the protest of the mainstream conservative party because women across all parties supported the bill. You could not legally rape your wife barely 20 years ago. I think it serves as a good example that we should all update our values from time to time.
I think this video beautifully captures what is wrong with these black-led anti-racism crusades. There is a complete lack of accountability. Any time someone brings up issues with black culture or instances where black people are racist, they are quickly shushed. The prevalence of racism in black communities is always refuted with reasons why they aren't to blame for various white-induced social barriers to social/financial mobility.
But that wouldn't fit the narrative of being 100% a victim
Pardon the pun, but what people refuse to acknowledge is that it isn't black and white, it's shades of grey.
But I thought we just kept pointing youtube videos as proof of our point of view and disregard everything else. Confirmation bias at its finest.
Wat. Have you even paid attention to my positions through most of this thread?
I've defended in the past the idea that racism is prejudice + power, but I'm not so sure anymore. Or rather, there is an attempt to make the academic separation, but I'm not sure it's how the word 'racism' is used in the vernacular, at least not yet. And until the vernacular has changed, it comes off weird, the idea that in North America, only whites can be racist. I get the distinction intellectually- that there is a distinction between having prejudices and having prejudices and having prejudices with power... but in that case, the difference is power. Prejudice + power = Racism + power.
Because on a visceral level, it feels like it is being said is that North American whites are a special kind of evil. That they are the only ones that can be prejudiced. That is not what is meant, but the prejudice + power = racism formula does tend to put the conversation on very weird footing as people naturally react against the idea that white North Americans are special kind of evil or that African-Americans cannot be prejudiced (which is the meaning most people get, when they hear 'cannot be racist" ...as in that video). Again, I get the academic distinction, but I don't think that's actually how the word is actually used day to day except in certain circles and the corresponding connotation feels intuitively wrong.
Blacks can obviously be racist. Whether their racism is effective is another story. Blacks bear the brunt of white racism but that doesn't mean black racism is impotent against other minority groups, such as asians.
EPT
