EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2517
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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farvacola
United States18819 Posts
On November 13 2015 01:28 oneofthem wrote: the results of latter is clearly notorious and publicizable, so that one doesn't work. The distinction does not rely on whether or not the acts can become notorious or communicated, rather that the act of public protest itself inherently turns on the notoriety of the act relative to the identity of the protester. Cyberterrorism implicitly includes a question of identity as to the perpetrator, and in keeping with what DPB mentioned, the game that follows a publicly exposed hack is very different from that which follows a public protest in which the protesters identity is not up for debate. Public, in-person protest is an altogether different sort of thing when compared to cyberterrorism, so much so that I think a good case can be made that the latter isn't really an effective form of civil disobedience at all. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 13 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote: I think we can all agree that college students have cornered the market on poorly planned protests that backfire, validity of their cause not withstanding. I think it's hilarious that anyone thinks that there's a valid justification for the scope of what they're doing, much less the specific tactics. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 13 2015 01:44 farvacola wrote: The distinction does not rely on whether or not the acts can become notorious or communicated, rather that the act of public protest itself inherently turns on the notoriety of the act relative to the identity of the protester. Cyberterrorism implicitly includes a question of identity as to the perpetrator, and in keeping with what DPB mentioned, the game that follows a publicly exposed hack is very different from that which follows a public protest in which the protesters identity is not up for debate. Public, in-person protest is an altogether different sort of thing when compared to cyberterrorism, so much so that I think a good case can be made that the latter isn't really an effective form of civil disobedience at all. this difference you describe is how directly the ideological cause and identity of the action is advertised by the act itself. i can accept this sort of distinction between terrorism/protest, but given the gravity of the consequences involved it is not enough to change the moral analysis all that much. all you are left with is a protest with the consequence and the cost/benefit logic of terrorism, namely the disregard for the innocent involved. so it's not really a big difference in the relevant aspect of the question. btw i am not willing to put down terrorism that much below protest, because the situation may not allow for protest, like in totalitarian states or hostile territory. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 13 2015 01:49 xDaunt wrote: I think it's hilarious that anyone thinks that there's a valid justification for the scope of what they're doing, much less the specific tactics. Poorly conceived demands and solutions to problems are also a staple of college students. Leadership is always needed to move protests into the more realistic, practical realm. There is nothing like a bunch of college kids saying “Hire more of these type of person instantly!” and me thinking “I would love to, hiring people is horrible.” But I also accept that change is a process of negotiation and innovation. Their demands are unreasonable, but it doesn’t’ mean that thinking about the problem won’t find a solution. | ||
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On November 12 2015 23:20 Plansix wrote: I am talking about hiring in general for all positions and professions, to be honest. The increasing diversity should be something aspirational. And tracking to assure their hiring process isn’t biased is one way to do that. There were several articles out of the tech sector talking about increasing the number of women in the field and one of the CEOs said that assuring that his company was hiring a similar % of women to the % that applied is the first step. To find out how many women applied and then figure out how to increase that number if the firm felt it was too low. And if it can’t be increased, why that is. But without that initial data, it is difficult for any industry to make a plan to do anything. Of course there are greater problems the higher the qualifications necessary for the position, like professorships. But collecting the information provides the schools with more tools and a better ability to address complaints. Then they can say that they received 5 out of 100 applications were from blacks or another minority if that is the case. And then that can lead to a greater discussion so to why that is. But the current problem is that few schools or firms are being transparent and provides lip service answers like “we are attempting to address diversity”. The whole point of the discussion is to find a process that isn’t quotas or some other dumb metric. The reason they don't track it publicly is because then people will use those exact numbers to come to the conclusions you come to and file lawsuits or engage in the kind of picketing we see at Emory. And these businesses are smart enough to know that pointing to achievement differences starting in Kindergarten, 6th Grade, etc won't stymie those protestors, despite being objectively correct. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On November 13 2015 01:31 Plansix wrote: If people are protesting racism and inequality, they are not super concerned if people like them. They are not looking for friends. They want change and if being get mad at the power structure because traffic is slowed down every day because of the protests, then they got what they wanted. Its sort of like Unions. Some strikes are not popular, but get the union what they want. Some fail. But the goal of the protest/strike isn’t always to make people agree with them. I get that they aren't trying to make friends, but if their goal is to be treated with respect and like any other human being, making enemies probably isn't the answer. My point is that if your target is systemic racism, pissing off random people is not the best way to go about it. Consider Racist X, who was on his way to work when his commute was interrupted by protesters. He has a blue collar job and doesn't work for the university, so probably has zero impact on the lives of these protesters, even if he is a bigot. But because of this, he goes home and complains to his racist wife, within earshot of his impressionable and not yet racist son, about the lazy blacks who whine and cause a ruckus even though they get free college for playing football. Congratulations, you've successfully fed ammunition into the racist echo chamber that pervades vast swaths of this country. Perhaps, even though his parents were blue collar workers, that impressionable child grows up to be a university administrator. I am all for (even if I don't agree with the specific cause) protesting police brutality by camping outside of police stations, or protesting an environmental issue by chaining yourself to a tree, etc. The point is to inconvenience the people actually responsible for your ills until you are arrested and people take notice. You will never convince Racist X that his white privilege is partly responsible for systemic racism if he hasn't drawn the poop swastika himself, so antagonizing him further makes no sense. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 13 2015 01:56 Plansix wrote: Poorly conceived demands and solutions to problems are also a staple of college students. Leadership is always needed to move protests into the more realistic, practical realm. There is nothing like a bunch of college kids saying “Hire more of these type of person instantly!” and me thinking “I would love to, hiring people is horrible.” But I also accept that change is a process of negotiation and innovation. Their demands are unreasonable, but it doesn’t’ mean that thinking about the problem won’t find a solution. Let's just say it like it is: these are the same assclowns who thought it was a good idea to protest the Michael Brown shooting in Ferguson. These are the same assclowns who are incapable of understanding that their ridiculous protests and other actions are actually hurting their own cause. Like I have said before, before you plant your banner and make a stand for a cause, make sure that you're not planting it in a pile of shit. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
allowing people to make sweeping generalizations that distract from genuine problems. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 13 2015 02:10 oneofthem wrote: ^the unstated negative consequence of bad protest. allowing people to make sweeping generalizations that distract from genuine problems. Would happen even if the protests were valid and well conducted. See news coverage of MLKs marches and sit ins. People throw shade not matter what. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 12 2015 22:33 Gorsameth wrote: politics is not there to be entertaining, its not suppose to be a freakshow where we point and laugh at monkies. I was not talking about entertainment at all, but about debating, about democracy. In France right now, the politicians from all side are so alike (from a political, a sociological, an ideological standpoint) that almost no important topic is actually discussed. They are only able to differenciate themselves with secondary and technical issues. In the US politics as I see it there is some kind of freedom, like the nation in all its diversity is trying to find common ground through a democratic process. Even if there are disagreement, and even if those disagreement seems somehow ridiculous from time to time, I still see this as a proof that the US as a country is alive, and not dead (my country has been political dead since 1983). On November 12 2015 23:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I far prefer quality over quantity, but maybe it's the whole "grass is always greener on the other side" perspective. Who cares if we have 5 or 30 candidates if the extra 25 are morons who end up just distracting us from real issues? Maybe. But what I can tell you is that in France when you've seen one debate, you've seen all of them. Debate during the primaries are not even aired on TV because they're boring as hell as nobody in a party would actually defend any idea that would go against the dominant line - except in the green party maybe. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
It took 461 days but Rosa Robles was able to rejoin the outside world on Wednesday, free from fear, and do something she had long yearned for: watch her sons play baseball. The Mexican maid emerged from her sanctuary in a Presbyterian church in Tucson, Arizona, secure in the knowledge that she would not be deported. “I’m so happy. I’m watching my boys. The air outside feels different,” she told the Guardian, speaking from the sidelines of a baseball field under a cold, starry sky. “How do I feel? Great.” Since August 2014 the undocumented immigrant had hunkered down in the Southside Presbyterian church’s adobe compound, a reluctant symbol of the paralysis in US immigration reform. She was not one of the “criminals” or “gang members” whom Barack Obama prioritised for expulsion in 2014, yet she faced a deportation order from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), a branch of the Department of Homeland Security. A snowballing campaign to let her stay has now paved the way for a deal with Homeland Security, said Robles’s lawyer, Margo Cowan. “It leaves Rosa in a position to be able to leave sanctuary safely. There is no risk whatsoever of being removed.” A confidentiality clause prevented Cowan giving details of the accord, but she hailed it as good news for others facing deportation. “I think Rosa is every mom, and her husband every dad. She took a stand in saying that she wouldn’t permit her family to be torn apart. It was a really powerful example.” Support from the Tucson city council, board of supervisors and thousands who planted “we stand with Rosa” signs outside homes and businesses helped tip the scales, said the lawyer. “It just came to a point where justice prevailed. It’s a wonderful victory. The whole community came together. It’s quite an exceptional human moment.” The breakthrough in Tucson came amid continued deadlock at national level over the fate of an estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants. A federal court this week upheld an injunction blocking Barack Obama’s attempt to shield about 4.7 million of them from deportation. Source | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22741 Posts
On November 13 2015 02:12 Plansix wrote: I would point out that the protest in Ferguson lead to the removal of racist judges, police officers and a full investigation of by the department of justice. The shooting may have been the thing that started it off, but it is not the real reason why the protests are happening. That state has a bunch of problems with race and it is very reluctant to address them. Would happen even if the protests were valid and well conducted. See news coverage of MLKs marches and sit ins. People throw shade not matter what. That "just have a good protest" crap is the biggest BS argument used lol. We all know how MLK's protests ended. Racism is strong on TL. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22741 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 13 2015 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote: That "just have a good protest" crap is the biggest BS argument used lol. We all know how MLK's protests ended. Racism is strong on TL. u get more creative with video and words. it will work | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 13 2015 03:31 GreenHorizons wrote: That "just have a good protest" crap is the biggest BS argument used lol. We all know how MLK's protests ended. Racism is strong on TL. Its the classic "Please protest/speak against racism in a format that is appealing to me" argument. It is surface level and 100% assure that the deeper issues won't be discussed. People are against racism in the abstract, as long as you don't talk about it around them or point out that racism is caused by the people who hold power and that a lot of those people are white. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
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