EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2408
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11798 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23840 Posts
On October 15 2015 05:38 Simberto wrote: Also, even if college is free, that does not mean that you suddenly have 300m people with college degrees. (If college actually means something). Not everyone is cut out for a university degree, and that is perfectly fine. If there are actually requirements to passing, that also means that some people will fail. To me, it makes a lot more sense to have the chance of getting a college degree tied to how good you actually are at the subject, how hard you work at it, etc..., as opposed to how much money your parents have. And not everyone NEEDS a university degree. There are perfectly fine jobs for people without college degrees, some of them quite well-paying too. The world will always need plumbers, construction workers, etc...And those surely don't need to study for 3+ years in a university to do their job. I think there's supposed to be more to higher education than learning to do a job? But no ones forcing degrees on anyone, you're just not competitive in the job market without one and you'll rarely get tracked to move up in a company without one. | ||
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yrba1
United States325 Posts
On October 15 2015 05:51 GreenHorizons wrote: I think there's supposed to be more to higher education than learning to do a job? But no ones forcing degrees on anyone, you're just not competitive in the job market without one and you'll rarely get tracked to move up in a company without one. Wonder what are Bernie's thoughts on vocational schools. He's emphasized on giving free public education for the average Americans but I wonder if it's exclusive only on universities. As Simberto mentioned, not everyone's cut out for a college degree but the education system in the US as a whole does not do a good job providing alternatives for those groups of people; the one-size fits all education basically gridlocks people into making college-level degrees a requirement for a potential of higher income. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 15 2015 06:01 yrba1 wrote: Wonder what are Bernie's thoughts on vocational schools. He's emphasized on giving free public education for the average Americans but I wonder if it's exclusive only on universities. As Simberto mentioned, not everyone's cut out for a college degree but the education system in the US as a whole does not do a good job providing alternatives for those groups of people; the one-size fits all education basically gridlocks people into making college-level degrees a requirement for a potential of higher income. There is a huge gap in the trade labor market in the US. We need carpenters, plumbers and electricians badly to bring down the price of housing. So it only makes sense that the trades would be included. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11798 Posts
Of course, if you want to be a lawyer, you'd better have a law degree or you are gonna have a bad time finding jobs. And of course there is a part of education that is not about preparing you for a job, but to make you a more complete person. However, nowadays you can get most of that without ever entering a university if you really care for it. The main reason to go to university is to get a certificate that says that you know some things. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
While having those would help cut down the price of housing a little, it wouldn't make much difference. Still, every little bit helps. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On October 15 2015 03:42 oneofthem wrote: nah new york is not replaceable for me i dont like rural places. point is the grind of life is more of a problem for people facing higher cost of living, worse if they have no mobility such as when they are confined to ethnic ghettos or whatnot. Doesn't have to be a choice between city and rural, there are plenty of nice suburbs that are way cheaper than living in the big city. I say this all the time when people who live in seattle making minimum or barely above minimum wage demand rent ceilings. My parents each make more than the average family, and they live in the suburbs where it's cheaper than the city, and make the commute to work every day, because it's significantly cheaper (and they get a nice house rather than a shitty apartment which would cost more.) Living in a major city is a choice, and not one that is wise if you are struggling with money. | ||
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notesfromunderground
188 Posts
On October 15 2015 05:38 Simberto wrote: Also, even if college is free, that does not mean that you suddenly have 300m people with college degrees. (If college actually means something). Not everyone is cut out for a university degree, and that is perfectly fine. If there are actually requirements to passing, that also means that some people will fail. To me, it makes a lot more sense to have the chance of getting a college degree tied to how good you actually are at the subject, how hard you work at it, etc..., as opposed to how much money your parents have. And not everyone NEEDS a university degree. There are perfectly fine jobs for people without college degrees, some of them quite well-paying too. The world will always need plumbers, construction workers, etc...And those surely don't need to study for 3+ years in a university to do their job. As a college instructor who loathes both my own complicity in the debt-factory that is the modern, corporate university, and who also loathes the utter lack of challenge or academic rigor, I think all college should be 100 percent free and that there should be a passing rate of about 40 percent. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
IMO picking the right area to live even regionally is part of living within your means. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On October 15 2015 06:35 hunts wrote: Living in a major city is a choice, and not one that is wise if you are struggling with money. Tell that to these idiots in Portland, Oregon who pretend housing costs are some kinda human rights issue. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On October 15 2015 05:38 Simberto wrote: Also, even if college is free, that does not mean that you suddenly have 300m people with college degrees. (If college actually means something). Not everyone is cut out for a university degree, and that is perfectly fine. If there are actually requirements to passing, that also means that some people will fail. To me, it makes a lot more sense to have the chance of getting a college degree tied to how good you actually are at the subject, how hard you work at it, etc..., as opposed to how much money your parents have. And not everyone NEEDS a university degree. There are perfectly fine jobs for people without college degrees, some of them quite well-paying too. The world will always need plumbers, construction workers, etc...And those surely don't need to study for 3+ years in a university to do their job. Yea, the idea that free tuition will mean that everyone and their mother goes to college is a complete load of crap. This doesn't happen anywhere else in the developed world where tuition is far more affordable for the average person. As you said, plenty of people don't WANT to go to college, either because they want to do something that doesn't need it or because they just hate/aren't good at school. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On October 15 2015 07:03 Mohdoo wrote: Tell that to these idiots in Portland, Oregon who pretend housing costs are some kinda human rights issue. Well if you have family living around especially older parents or grandparents or people otherwise dependent on you I think moving might be a problem. Having the poor turn into nomads doesn't sound like a great idea. Housing actually is a human rights/social issue, at least if the idea of a community is supposed to mean something. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 15 2015 06:51 notesfromunderground wrote: As a college instructor who loathes both my own complicity in the debt-factory that is the modern, corporate university, and who also loathes the utter lack of challenge or academic rigor, I think all college should be 100 percent free and that there should be a passing rate of about 40 percent. That doesn't solve much, because really you are just doing what high school needs to be doing. If we wanted that model, we should just utilize the current Community College system for a +1 year that does that 40% pass rate style teaching model and have that part be free, and make it a prereq for 4 year colleges. The reason grade inflation in college ended up happening is that it started at places like Harvard where they said to themselves, "Wait a minute, these kids are already the top .1% of students, and I am failing them? It doesn't make sense for him to lose out on a job opportunity to the guy at UConn with a 3.5 who couldn't even shine this kid's shoes." It all really starts with the problem of employment entrance. There needs to be a way for a kid in the top 90% percentile to indicate that to employers without expending years (and money currently) in a system. Right now about 50% of the value of a college degree is the name of the school you were admitted to, and 40% is getting the diploma. Only about 10% is tied to actual classes. That is the problem, that its purely a signaling mechanism for most students. Sure, there are people who actually want to study something, and have a passion for it, and that is what 4 year degrees need to be. Or there are actual professions where you need a few years of schooling (as an engineer and attorney, I think both should/could be an undergraduate degree but maybe not 4 years for each). But so much of it is wasted right now. 4 years is soo many useless classes. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
good read on education and why we have curves and passing rates and stuff | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On October 15 2015 07:07 Nyxisto wrote: Well if you have family living around especially older parents or grandparents or people otherwise dependent on you I think moving might be a problem. Having the poor turn into nomads doesn't sound like a great idea. Housing actually is a human rights/social issue, at least if the idea of a community is supposed to mean something. I wasn't aware that moving to the suburbs, roughly 30-60 minute drive away, and saving a lot of money in the process, was suddenly never being able to visit and help your parents/grandparents, and that they would become nomads. You really don't have to move far from a big city to find much cheaper housing prices. And to be honest, I don't see the problem in mcdonalds employees not being able to afford living in downtown of a major city, they have tons of options, and can find minimum wage work anywhere. Many of the people who have more incentive to live in major cities are ones who work in the various companies that are usually found there. | ||
KwarK
United States43866 Posts
On October 15 2015 07:07 Nyxisto wrote: Well if you have family living around especially older parents or grandparents or people otherwise dependent on you I think moving might be a problem. Having the poor turn into nomads doesn't sound like a great idea. Housing actually is a human rights/social issue, at least if the idea of a community is supposed to mean something. There are lots of important things the poor can't afford, from good healthcare to education to healthy food, why should housing be any different? Your problem may be with capitalism in general rather than housing costs specifically. Living space in a city is a limited resource with exponentially increasing costs that can be substituted for a lower cost and no loss in quality with living space in a suburb or smaller city. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On October 15 2015 07:12 hunts wrote: I wasn't aware that moving to the suburbs, roughly 30-60 minute drive away, and saving a lot of money in the process, was suddenly never being able to visit and help your parents/grandparents, and that they would become nomads. You really don't have to move far from a big city to find much cheaper housing prices. And to be honest, I don't see the problem in mcdonalds employees not being able to afford living in downtown of a major city, they have tons of options, and can find minimum wage work anywhere. Many of the people who have more incentive to live in major cities are ones who work in the various companies that are usually found there. While I don't entirely disagree, if your parents or grandparents need a lot of help it's very possible for a 30-60 minute drive to be too much-elder care can be incredibly demanding. I know for sure my girlfriend's grandmother would be very uncomfortable if her parents decided to move that far away. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45457 Posts
On October 15 2015 05:44 Simberto wrote: Why is that depressing. Depressing is that US society appears to push these people into getting a degree, as opposed to doing something that would make a lot more sense for them, like an apprenticeship at a job. A lot of people are quite happy to be done with high school and would prefer to not spend even more time studying, but afaik there does not seem to be a reasonable way to do that in the US. Plenty of politicians, including Obama, Clinton, and Sanders, have been very careful with their rhetoric... They'll say things like "Anyone who wants to go to college should be able to go at an affordable rate" as opposed to saying "Everyone needs to go to college". So subtlely leaving other options open. That being said, we still put way too much emphasis on a college degree. It's getting watered down. This generation, everyone has a college degree. Our bachelor's degrees are our parents'high school diplomas, and now the next tier of master's degrees is only unique in the same way that a bachelor's degree was unique 30-40 years ago. The bubble is eventually going to burst, hopefully sometime before everyone "technically " gets a doctorate but no one actually learns how to do research. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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KwarK
United States43866 Posts
On October 15 2015 07:35 TheTenthDoc wrote: While I don't entirely disagree, if your parents or grandparents need a lot of help it's very possible for a 30-60 minute drive to be too much-elder care can be incredibly demanding. I know for sure my girlfriend's grandmother would be very uncomfortable if her parents decided to move that far away. Assuming the grandmother also cannot be moved. The reality of the situation is that where you live is a luxury purchase and that living space is a limited resource that there is intense competition over. If you live somewhere that means that another person cannot live there, it's a zero sum game. It is not realistic to expect that everyone can live in the same small place, people will get priced out and if they need to live next to their grandmother that means the grandmother should probably leave too. And given she most likely no longer works and lives somewhere where property prices have gone up a lot selling up is probably a good move. | ||
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