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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 04 2012 09:20 oneofthem wrote: the problem with your particular 'doubting' of graeber is that
1. you don't know anything about anthropology 2. you only go on his political affiliations
there is no need to spend time defending your stance here since you could use that time to get properly informed.
of course, that might not help you when you think libertarianism is some great moral lighthouse ^^ See farv, these are the sorts of posts you should be criticizing. But I know it's harder to see when you agree with him. 
I didn't just "go on his political affiliations," I went on his outright statements that he believes research should be normative.
And I never said libertarianism is some great moral lighthouse. I don't even consider myself libertarian honestly, but I don't care if that's how people describe me.
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On December 04 2012 05:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:47 silynxer wrote:On December 04 2012 04:40 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 03 2012 04:44 aksfjh wrote: It's not your money. It's the government's money.
did the government make that money? and actually, if the government passed tax-cuts, then that would mean that the government has legally declared it as my money, not theirs. seriously though, without any philosophical quibbling: how is never receiving money in the first place equatable with spending something? Didn't we have that exact same discussion already? Yes, the government made that money, literally. did the government conceive of the product? did they provide the capital? did they manufacture it and then distribute it? did they sell it? I don't give a crap if they print the dollars, that doesn't make the fruit of my labor theirs. Yes.
At some point, people decided that some entity should exist for the good of those involved in the society based on selective measures. The existence provides services to those that implicitly agree to give power to the entity and those that administer it. When creating those services, it must somehow compensate the effort of those employed to fulfill the roles required. In a modern economy, the compensation is done through fiat currency. A piece of paper is given as compensation, which, by law, is guaranteed the power to be used to pay down all debts. This is how capital is created, by the government paying for services. It is by the grace of the government we give power to that we have capital that can be divided and transported easily for trade.
Without this, the "product" wouldn't have a specific value. The incentive to create anything would be to trade directly for sustenance. It leaves little incentive to increase one's own output beyond their own needs, or to create something for the benefit of somebody else for supplies that would be wasted in the time it took for you to use them. Without government, there is no modern economy, no economic conquest, no socioeconomic scale, no class mobility, and certainly not the notion of being "compensated" for the "fruits of your labor."
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As much as I love a good argument on if government produces anything or if we should care about what some anthropologist has ever said about historical currency without pointing out any sort of actual research flaws and instead throwing out ad hominems based on a couple quotes, I think the new republican "proposal" deserves some attention.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20584019
+ Show Spoiler +US Republicans have countered White House plans to avoid the so-called "fiscal cliff", with a $2.2tn (£1.4tn) proposal including changes to benefits.
The plan would cut $600bn from federal health programmes and decrease cost of living adjustments to Social Security.
President Barack Obama offered a $1.6tn deal last week that involved tax rises and spending cuts.
The White House quickly rejected the Republican offer, saying it did not meet "the test of balance".
White House Communications Director Dan Pfeiffer said the plan "promises to lower rates for the wealthy and sticks the middle class with the bill".
He added it "includes nothing new and provides no details on which deductions they would eliminate, which loopholes they will close or which Medicare savings they would achieve".
'Common ground' Unveiling his plan earlier in the day, House Speaker John Boehner said Mr Obama - who wants tax rises for the wealthy - had made a "la-la land" offer.
"We could have responded in kind, but we decided not to do that," Mr Boehner said. "What we are putting forward is a credible plan that deserves serious consideration by the White House."
Both sides want to avoid the economic double-punch of expiring tax cuts and automatic spending reductions, scheduled to come into effect on 1 January if no deal is passed.
In a letter addressed to the White House, House Republicans made the offer to increase tax revenue by $800bn over a decade, but said they would keep current tax cuts put in place - including those for wealthier earners targeted by Mr Obama.
The offer does not specify how the new revenue would be found. Among the other potential changes would be an increase in the eligibility age for Medicare - a government-sponsored health programmes for senior citizens. There would also be changes to the way Social Security makes inflation adjustments.
Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell called the counter-offer a "good-faith effort to find common ground".
But the Republican plan is certain to create opposition from defenders of Social Security, as well as Democrats deeply sceptical of raising the Medicare age.
The White House offer, delivered by Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and defended on a series of TV chat shows on Sunday, includes a $1.6tn rise over a decade, an extension of the temporary Social Security payroll tax cut, as well as heightened presidential power to raise the national debt limit.
The last fight over the debt limit, in the summer of 2011, ultimately ended with Congress passing the bill establishing the automatic spending now due to go into effect.
The president's deal also included $600bn in spending cuts, including $350 billion from Medicare and other health programmes.
I put proposal in quotes because if there are still no specifics on what deductions should be cut to increase revenues. I'm glad to see the House Reps have learned a lot from Romney. I would love to see what deductions they are talking about, but every article I've seen says they haven't given any details.
The letter: http://www.speaker.gov/sites/speaker.house.gov/files/documents/letter_to_wh_121203.pdf
Fun Facts: US Q3 GDP growth revised upward to 2.7% Q4 expectations floating around 1%
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20544108
Edit: I just noticed this weird comment.
On December 02 2012 14:10 sc2superfan101 wrote: so how do ya'll feel about Obama's ridiculous (IMO) proposal to the Republicans?
personally, I think we should just pass the middle class tax cuts, with nothing else in the bill, and force Obama and the Senate to pass it (or vote against tax cuts for the middle class) and then keep doing stuff like that until they break.
any way you look at it, Obama straight-up screwed the pooch with that stunt.
The Democrats passed those in July.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07-25/news/sns-rt-us-usa-congress-taxes-votebre86o1po-20120725_1_tax-cuts-senate-democrats-middle-class-tax
Then the President said the House should do exactly that last week.
+ Show Spoiler +The president has launched a public campaign to try and force Republicans to sign on to his position on the expiring Bush tax cuts, asking them to pass a Senate bill that would maintain low middle class tax rates while allowing them to go up on the top income earners. “If we can just get a few House Republicans on board, I’ll sign this bill as soon as Congress sends it my way,” he said.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/12/obama-accuses-house-gop-of-holding-middle-class-tax-cuts-hostage/
So only passing those middle class tax cuts sure would show the Democrats right?
IMO the Obama plan is a terrible one, cutting far too deep far too fast, boo tax hikes/spending cuts! I am, after all, a radical who denies that there is a debt crisis. We need more stimulus and more growth, some nice pressure on exchange rates to drive down the dollar, little more inflation and we are doing alright.
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The republicans are trying their best to position themselves out of simply agreeing to the tax raise on the top tax bracket. They'll probably eventually agree to it but they'll expect some concessions from the democrats if they want to seriously get a deal though.
I'm now becoming most optimistic about us not going over the fiscal cliff.
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As far as I see it, nothing about the fiscal cliff talks has seemed out of the ordinary; Democrats more or less "won" the elections of this cycle, so they get to start out with the high bid (the proposal put out by Geitner). Sure it's rather crazy, but first offers during negotiations usually are. Likewise, Republicans have offered forth their unreasonably low bid, one totally bereft of specifics other than the standard insistence on sweeping entitlement cuts. I certainly hope that this tit for tat ends up amounting to some sort of agreement, but whether or not that will happen remains to be seen. One thing I do know is that, unfortunately, this is all partisan business as usual.
Edit: I stole your link, TheFrankOne, and I added it to the OP
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On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: @ kwizach
(every one of the WSJ articles said: "Subscriber only") I'm not a WSJ subscriber and I can read some of them, so I guess it also depends on your region. Here's the integral WSJ article that was my second link and which clearly states that the intelligence community genuinely thought the attacks had evolved from a protest/happened following the protest, until serious doubts started being cast on September 15-16 (most relevant parts are in bold):
+ Show Spoiler +Early Uncertainty on Libya Account - October 18, 2012 WASHINGTON—The night before Susan Rice went public with the administration's assessment that the Sept. 11 U.S. consulate attack in Libya grew out of a spontaneous demonstration against an anti-Muslim video, intelligence analysts were receiving new information that contradicted the account she gave. Intelligence agencies soon amended their stance, but it then took weeks longer—until early October—for a new intelligence assessment discounting the protests to make its way into public statements from senior officials in the Obama administration. Amb. Susan Rice spoke Sept. 16 about the Benghazi attack days earlier. Ms. Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, based her statements that Sunday on intelligence agency conclusions that the attack had spun out of protests in Benghazi, fueled by anger over an anti-Islamic, U.S.-made video that had sparked protests elsewhere. The picture began to change over that weekend, according to U.S. intelligence officials, in the most detailed account yet to emerge of a period that has been a focus of controversy over the Obama administration's handling of the aftermath of the attack, which killed four Americans including the U.S. ambassador. Some intelligence came in on Saturday evening that contradicted the protest claim and prompted the office of the Director of National Intelligence to begin to question the agencies' initial conclusions, intelligence officials said.
Despite their growing uncertainty, intelligence officials didn't feel they had enough conclusive, new information to revise their assessment. Ms. Rice wasn't warned of their new doubts before she went on the air the next morning and spoke of the attacks being spurred by demonstrations, intelligence officials acknowledged.More information casting doubt on the protest element came in on Sunday morning, around the time that Ms. Rice was completing her TV appearances, the officials said. She began taping the shows early Sunday morning. By the time intelligence analysts began to realize "there's enough here to build a body of evidence that there probably were not protests, those things were already recorded and she [Ms. Rice] was already out there," a senior intelligence official said.Unanswered in the account is whose role it was to prevent Ms. Rice from broadcasting information that already risked being wrong. Also unanswered is why it took longer for the new information to come out publicly, even after the DNI revised its assessment. The administration has since said that the consulate siege was a deliberate terrorist attack by militants and not the outgrowth of a protest. Officials still describe it as opportunistic rather than premeditated, however, as they have from early on. Officials in the first week also played down suggestions that an al Qaeda affiliate may have been involved in the siege. Intelligence officials now have evidence that al Qaeda-linked militants were at the scene of the attack, although those militants may not have been its leaders, according to people briefed on the matter. President Barack Obama has been forced to defend his administration's response. Appearing Thursday on Comedy Central's "The Daily Show," Mr. Obama, asked about whether the administration's communications had been "optimal," said: "Here's what I'll say. If four Americans get killed, it's not optimal. We're going to fix it. All of it. And what happens, during the course of a presidency, is that the government is a big operation and, any given time, something screws up. And you make sure that you find out what's broken and you fix it." Ms. Rice's Sept. 16 portrayal of the attack has drawn Republican calls for her resignation and charges that the White House was politicizing intelligence. Ms. Rice based her comments on talking points provided to her the previous day by the Central Intelligence Agency and based on consultations with the office of the DNI, which was responsible for developing consensus assessments based on input from the various intelligence agencies, according to officials who described the sequence of events.
The talking points, which were initially written for congressional committees and top administration officials, said "the currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the U.S. diplomatic post in Benghazi and subsequently its annex," according to officials.
The talking points also said there were "indications that extremists participated in the violent demonstrations."Defenders of Ms. Rice argue her comments were carefully hedged. "I think it's clear that there were extremist elements that joined and escalated the violence, whether they were al Qaeda affiliates, whether they were Libyan-based extremist or al Qaeda itself, I think, is one of the things we'll have to determine," she told CBS on Sept. 16. A spokeswoman for Ms. Rice, Erin Pelton, said that the ambassador made clear in her remarks that the investigation was still under way. "At every turn Ambassador Rice provided—and said she was providing—the best information and the best assessment that the administration had at the time, based on what was provided to Ambassador Rice and other senior U.S. officials by the U.S. intelligence community," Ms. Pelton said. Some officials briefed on the initial intelligence were surprised by Ms. Rice's assertion that the attack was preceded by protests. Intelligence agencies late in that week began to raise questions about the assessment. "Around that time, I saw no finished products [reports] that said there were peaceful protests," said one person briefed on the investigation. "There was plenty of stuff that indicated there was the possibility of a coordinated attack." Another U.S. intelligence official said initial intelligence reports are often incomplete and can turn out to be false, and that it took time sift through conflicting accounts to conclude that the attack didn't evolve from a protest.
"The early question was whether extremists took over a crowd, or [whether] they were the crowd," the official said. "It took time—until that next week—to sort through varied and conflicting firsthand accounts to better understand the composition of the extremist attackers that night."
Ms. Rice and other Cabinet-level officials were first informed about the assessment that there had been protests on Sept. 13. The intelligence came from press reports, intercepted communications and informants' tips immediately after the attacks.Officials declined to provide details about the nature of the intelligence that arrived over the weekend of Sept. 15 that prompted their shift in thinking. Officials said interviews with U.S. officials and Libyans who were at the scene contributed, but it was unclear when those took place and what other intelligence affected the assessment. The intelligence assessment was changed by DNI around Sept. 18 to reflect the new information that there was no protest, intelligence officials said.The change wasn't made public. Officials said the DNI's findings are classified and were still evolving. Ms. Rice and many other top officials weren't informed about the change in the assessment until Saturday, Sept. 22, according to U.S. officials.In a rare public statement on Sept. 28, the DNI acknowledged other changes in its assessment, including that investigators were looking at possible links to al Qaeda affiliates. The statement, however, made no mention of the changed assessment on protests. The DNI declined to comment on the lag time. Senior administration officials didn't start talking publicly about the revised assessment until last week. Some senior officials have raised questions about the process used by DNI in developing consensus assessments. These critics say that process slows the flow of raw intelligence to policy makers who need the information quickly to make decisions. DNI supporters say the system is designed to weed out raw intelligence that can't be substantiated and reduce the risk that policy makers will act on bad information. "Assessments are updated when the preponderance of new intelligence tells us that our earlier conclusions need to be revised," a senior U.S. intelligence official said.
There you go. I don't think I need to quote the entire other article, since it basically says the same thing, as you can see from the abstract:
WASHINGTON—President Barack Obama was told in his daily intelligence briefing for more than a week after the consulate siege in Benghazi that the assault grew out of a spontaneous protest, despite conflicting reports from witnesses and other sources that began to cast doubt on the accuracy of that assessment almost from the start.
New details about the contents of the President's Daily Brief, which haven't been reported previously, show that the Central Intelligence Agency didn't adjust the classified assessment until Sept. 22, fueling tensions between the administration and the agency. You'll notice this was written two weeks after the article you quoted, when more information about the timeline had become available. It is clear that in its official reports to the Obama administration, the intelligence community initially wrote that there had been a protest. The first serious doubts (understand: not one or two contradicting report(s)) were only casted right before Rice appeared on television and she was not notified of those doubts until later. She made sure in her appearances, however, to stress that the investigation was still underway and that new information might contradict the early assessments.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: I have, multiple times, brought up the classified report that was edited. you have continued to ignore it. I asked you to substantiate that claim about an early report that completely ruled out that there had been protests, and you haven't provided me with anything. The only article you linked to speaks of no such report. In fact, it contains a line that says a U.S. official declared that early reporting suggested militants "may well have decided to use the protests as a pretext" - meaning that early reporting initially certainly did not rule out that there had been protests.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: Susan Rice's talking points came off of an edited report which said that the attack was most likely preplanned. tell me, how do "extremists" plan an attack in response to a video when they haven't even heard of the video yet? if you will not address the (acknowledged) existence of the original report, then I will not, and cannot continue discussing this with you. ignorance is one thing. willful ignorance is something else entirely. Again, I'm still waiting for you to provide me with any source dealing with an early report that rules out that there were protests. All I've seen so far from you is an article about some initial reports which pointed towards a pre-planned attack, and no mention of there not having been protests. In case you didn't know, there were plenty of reports received by the intelligence community, and many were contradictory. As explained in the more detailed and up-to-date article I linked to, the intelligence community initially believed there had been protests. They acknowledged the role of militants by referring to extremists in the talking points, which Rice also said on television. Also, like I already told you, you can plan a terrorist attack without setting a date for the actual attack. Once you have planned how you aim to carry out the attack, you can still choose the date which best suits you. The video coming out and the protests in Cairo could have been seen by the militants as a good reason to launch the attack on that day, possibly to provide justification for the attack and to get the locals on their side. In any case, there is simply not enough information at this point to completely rule out the video played any role, even if only to trigger the launch of an attack that was already under preparation.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +the intelligence community GENUINELY THOUGHT that the attack had evolved from the protests at the time Susan Rice appeared on television. there was literally no evidence of a protest, and there was never any indication, from any source, that a protest existed. the media and the Libyan government, and even (some) intelligence representatives had already discounted the existence of a protest prior to the attack. This is simply not true. Not only did many initial reports indicate that there had been protests (both in the media and in intelligence reports), but your OWN LINK corroborates this: "One official said initial reporting suggested militants had begun planning attacks on U.S. targets in Benghazi before September 11, but may well have decided to use the protests as a pretext for moving forward that day." Initial reporting did mention protests.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:from the article that I posted (and you ignored): Show nested quote +The report did not allege the attacks were a reaction to the anti-Muslim film, but acknowledged it was possible that the attackers sought to use an outbreak of violence in Cairo over the film, which insulted the Prophet Mohammad, as a pretext for attacks. Where exactly do you read in that sentence that the report ruled out the possibility that there had in addition been protests in Benghazi as well?
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: the initial intelligence suggested that the video had nothing to do with the attack. SOME reports did. In fact, some still do indicate that it might have played a role. It hasn't been settled yet.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: that report was edited. No report was edited. What was edited was the talking points initially prepared by the CIA. Those talking points were edited by the intelligence community before they were passed on to the White House. The only word the White House changed was the word "consulate".
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: do not keep telling me that she was going off of the best intelligence at the time when Patraeus testified that the talking points she received did not reflect their assessments (hence, the edited talking points). Again, the talking points were edited by the intelligence community itself. The editing consisted in removing too specific information regarding the perpetrators of the attacks - not only because the information was still murky, but for national security reasons (as not to tip them off). This is what Petraeus himself said.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote: as for me showing you that report, perhaps you haven't heard but it's classified. which means I don't have access to it. get a grip. See above.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:........... I never said she did. try to stay on-topic please. Glad that we agree that Rice did not deny the implication of militants. Considering that's what the editing of the talking points was about (replacing more detailed information about the militants' identity by the term "extremists"), it seems that you don't have a problem with the said editing after all.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +Your wikipedia link shows nothing but that there has been speculation by various actors about the motives behind the attack. it shows that the media, the Libyan government, and even the CIA believed that the attack was preplanned. as in: couldn't possibly be about a video they hadn't seen yet. Not only does it not show that for all the actors you mention, but it still says nothing about the video possibly still playing a role, if only for the timing.
On December 04 2012 08:19 sc2superfan101 wrote:1) most of your sources are inaccessible, so I can't really address them directly. 2) I addressed all of your points 3) most of those sources "proved" things that I never contested. it's like you're deliberately missing the point. Those sources prove things that you directly contested, in particular that the intelligence community initially genuinely thought that there had been protests.
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Why cant the usa solve this (fiscal cliffhanger) and instead act like spoiled children. In europe politicians from far left to far right made big sacrifices to cooperate and solve important economic problems and their budgets. In usa both politicians are economically far right to european standards and they get in such a mess for the 2nd year in a row now. It realy is sad and annoying to see
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I don't know how much she'll be able to do but one can dream.
Happy birthday, farv~!
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Thanks Souma! I definitely hope Elizabeth Warren has some sort of impact, but the current state of legislative politics doesn't make that seem very likely.
In any case, just to keep y'all on your toes, here's another article on the Fiscal Cliff; after the first proposal/counter-proposal, the White House is sticking firm to its insistence that tax rates on the top income bracket be included in any acceptable plan.
President Barack Obama said Tuesday that a deal still can get done to avoid the so-called fiscal cliff, but he held firm on his demand that any agreement must include higher income-tax rates for the top earners.
In his first interview since the Nov. 6 election, the president told Bloomberg Television that the proposal offered by House Republicans, which doesn't raise tax rates on upper-income Americans, is out of balance.
"When you look at the math, it doesn't work," Mr. Obama said.
The president said he is prepared to compromise and is willing to consider new ideas on a range of issues, including changes to entitlement programs. But he suggested that the two sides are likely to remain at an impasse until Republicans agree to raise income-tax rates for the top earners.
"What I'm going to need...is an acknowledgment that folks like me can pay a little bit higher rate," he said.
Obama Stands by Tax Demand
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
quite a bit of creative space available to democrats on the tax side i think. yea, things seem stale when the policy choices are limited to raising income tax on 2% and then wonder what must be cut because not enough revenue can be raised by even a 5% rate increase on the top bracket. democrats have the pulpit though and can advance some spectacularly new tax platform. broaden the number of options available can give attention to useful reforms as well as make things less ideologically monotone.
for example, give republicans the choice of either raising capital gains rate or raising top bracket. or a new top bracket vs reclassifying carried interest.
unfortunately, there seems to be quite a strong push for spending cuts. cuts are going to be made on the most politically vulnerable things, such as basic research.
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On December 05 2012 04:27 Rassy wrote:Why cant the usa solve this (fiscal cliffhanger) and instead act like spoiled children. In europe politicians from far left to far right made big sacrifices to cooperate and solve important economic problems and their budgets. In usa both politicians are economically far right to european standards and they get in such a mess for the 2nd year in a row now. It realy is sad and annoying to see  Hate to break it to you but Europe isn't doing so hot. Europe as a whole is back in recession, Greece is still a mess, Spain is still a mess, the banking system is still fragile...
If anything there's been less progress in Europe than the US.
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On December 05 2012 07:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:27 Rassy wrote:Why cant the usa solve this (fiscal cliffhanger) and instead act like spoiled children. In europe politicians from far left to far right made big sacrifices to cooperate and solve important economic problems and their budgets. In usa both politicians are economically far right to european standards and they get in such a mess for the 2nd year in a row now. It realy is sad and annoying to see  Hate to break it to you but Europe isn't doing so hot. Europe as a whole is back in recession, Greece is still a mess, Spain is still a mess, the banking system is still fragile... If anything there's been less progress in Europe than the US. Yes, the European countries where austerity has been the norm have been doing poorly.
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On December 05 2012 08:36 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On December 05 2012 04:27 Rassy wrote:Why cant the usa solve this (fiscal cliffhanger) and instead act like spoiled children. In europe politicians from far left to far right made big sacrifices to cooperate and solve important economic problems and their budgets. In usa both politicians are economically far right to european standards and they get in such a mess for the 2nd year in a row now. It realy is sad and annoying to see  Hate to break it to you but Europe isn't doing so hot. Europe as a whole is back in recession, Greece is still a mess, Spain is still a mess, the banking system is still fragile... If anything there's been less progress in Europe than the US. Yes, the European countries where austerity has been the norm have been doing poorly. I'm not sure what your point is. The austerity was necessitated* by a preceding era of profligacy. Countries like Greece racked up large debts and lost competitiveness which lead to crisis. Conversely, Germany isn't doing well because it isn't practicing harsh austerity - it's doing well because it doesn't need to.
As it relates to the US we're all trying to avoid harsh austerity (the fiscal cliff) while also not giving in to profligacy since, as we should have learned by now, that rarely ends well.
*The IMF has made a reasonable case that austerity was too harsh in many cases. I don't know anyone credible that thinks zero austerity would have worked.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
not sure if it's simple profligacy. the way the euro zone was set up presumed that irresponsible fiscal governments was the only economic threat. when you have regional imbalances or the financial crisis, the system is unable to deal with it.
if southern europe is allowed control over their own currency they'd not be in crisis. (greece excepted)
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SCOTT BLOMGREN STREAM CHEATED DURING A (UN)FRIENDLY MATCH. HE PICKED A MAP FAVORED TO HIS BUILD AND PLANTED A PROXY PYLON AND BUILT A GATEWAY IN FRONT OF MY BASE. THAT HURT MY FEELINGS AND I LOST. I FELT BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD. HIS NAME IS ANDANTE. THIS IS A REPORT
User was banned for this post.
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On December 05 2012 11:17 SweetAres wrote: SCOTT BLOMGREN STREAM CHEATED DURING A (UN)FRIENDLY MATCH. HE PICKED A MAP FAVORED TO HIS BUILD AND PLANTED A PROXY PYLON AND BUILT A GATEWAY IN FRONT OF MY BASE. THAT HURT MY FEELINGS AND I LOST. I FELT BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD. HIS NAME IS ANDANTE. THIS IS A REPORT
thanks for the info!! :D
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!?!?!?
Obama Says Tax Rate Cut for Wealthy Possible
President Barack Obama said Tuesday that while tax rates must go up for a "fiscal cliff" deal, it may be possible to lower rates at the top end of the scale late next year as part of tax reforms that would close loopholes and limit deductions.
"Let's let those go up," Obama told Bloomberg Television in an interview, referring to tax rates for the wealthiest Americans.
"And then let's set up a process with a time certain, at the end of 2013 or the fall of 2013, where we work on tax reform, we look at what loopholes and deduction both Democrats and Republicans are willing to close, and it's possible that we may be able to lower rates by broadening the base at that point."
Link
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On December 05 2012 12:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:!?!?!? Show nested quote +Obama Says Tax Rate Cut for Wealthy Possible
President Barack Obama said Tuesday that while tax rates must go up for a "fiscal cliff" deal, it may be possible to lower rates at the top end of the scale late next year as part of tax reforms that would close loopholes and limit deductions.
"Let's let those go up," Obama told Bloomberg Television in an interview, referring to tax rates for the wealthiest Americans.
"And then let's set up a process with a time certain, at the end of 2013 or the fall of 2013, where we work on tax reform, we look at what loopholes and deduction both Democrats and Republicans are willing to close, and it's possible that we may be able to lower rates by broadening the base at that point." Link I'm leaning towards this being just a fake promise. From past history, the talk of entitlement reform goes nowhere and the best any Democrat is willing to settle for is a reduction in the year-to-year increase in welfare spending, calling it a budget cut in the frame of baseling budgeting. There are two issues that I'm egging on my Republican representatives to not budge on until we start having a track record of meaningful compromise. One is tax increases of any kind until we start seeing passed spending cuts that address the inability of the US to pay down the interest on its debt in the long term (It will overtake defense spending by 2018 according to the OMB). The second is immigration reform. No plans for amnesty until major changes to protecting our border are introduced. We've seen attempts to address it all comprehensively with no long-term success in securing the border, only success in legalizing or helping those that do come over. Talk's cheap, and there's been a lot of talk these past couple months on both cutting the federal budget and increasing tax rates. The American people have no reason to believe Congress will not just use increased tax revenue to justify even more government programs that spend the money meant to pay down the debt.
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On December 05 2012 15:01 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 12:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:!?!?!? Obama Says Tax Rate Cut for Wealthy Possible
President Barack Obama said Tuesday that while tax rates must go up for a "fiscal cliff" deal, it may be possible to lower rates at the top end of the scale late next year as part of tax reforms that would close loopholes and limit deductions.
"Let's let those go up," Obama told Bloomberg Television in an interview, referring to tax rates for the wealthiest Americans.
"And then let's set up a process with a time certain, at the end of 2013 or the fall of 2013, where we work on tax reform, we look at what loopholes and deduction both Democrats and Republicans are willing to close, and it's possible that we may be able to lower rates by broadening the base at that point." Link I'm leaning towards this being just a fake promise. From past history, the talk of entitlement reform goes nowhere and the best any Democrat is willing to settle for is a reduction in the year-to-year increase in welfare spending, calling it a budget cut in the frame of baseling budgeting. There are two issues that I'm egging on my Republican representatives to not budge on until we start having a track record of meaningful compromise. One is tax increases of any kind until we start seeing passed spending cuts that address the inability of the US to pay down the interest on its debt in the long term (It will overtake defense spending by 2018 according to the OMB). The second is immigration reform. No plans for amnesty until major changes to protecting our border are introduced. We've seen attempts to address it all comprehensively with no long-term success in securing the border, only success in legalizing or helping those that do come over. Talk's cheap, and there's been a lot of talk these past couple months on both cutting the federal budget and increasing tax rates. The American people have no reason to believe Congress will not just use increased tax revenue to justify even more government programs that spend the money meant to pay down the debt.
Are you talking about the U.S.-Mexico border? Because net immigration from Mexico is already zero due to a combination of economic factors, increased border security, and increased deportation.
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@kwizach
the protests in the the other countries as a pretext... they couldn't have used a protest in Benghazi as a pretext when there was no protest in Benghazi. and the point of that quote was not to discount the existence of a protest (though it inadvertently does) but rather to show that there was never any indication that the attack was motivated by the video. which was another false claim by Susan Rice and the administration.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/04/cia-report-benghazi-intel/1746003/
that link shows that she had no reason to doubt that Al-Qaeda was involved, or that it was preplanned. keep in mind that this was just one of many things that she was wrong (lied) about. next, an article from Sept 13:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/09/13/168415/no-protest-before-benghazi-attack.html
The guard, interviewed Thursday in the hospital where he is being treated for five shrapnel wounds in one leg and two bullet wounds in the other, said that the consulate area was quiet – “there wasn’t a single ant outside,” he said – until about 9:35 p.m., when as many as 125 armed men descended on the compound from all directions. there has yet to be provided to me any evidence that there was a protest. and since there never was a protest, why on earth would any intelligence or the State dpt. or the administration think that there was? we know that the House Intelligence Committee chairman was just as confused at the insistence that there as a protest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack#Criticism_of_U.S._government_response
Representative Mike Rogers (R-MI), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, who on the 13th of September said that the attacks had all the hallmarks of a coordinated attack by al-Qaeda, has questioned whether there were any protests at all in Benghazi, saying: "I have seen no information that shows that there was a protest going on as you have seen around any other embassy at the time. It was clearly designed to be an attack."
what's especially funny about it is that so far, the media has been ahead of the administration and the CIA by at least a week on their information. apparently it's okay that our intelligence agencies are so worthless that they might as well just ask Fox News and CNN what's going on in the world.
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