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On September 21 2015 05:24 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 05:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:It is extraordinary that Christianity has in the United States now been crowded into a single ideological bloc for political purposes; merely a century ago there were considerable social cleavages between Episcopalians and Methodists, or between Slovak and Hungarian Catholics who resided in the same neighbourhoods. Generic Religion and Generic Race have replaced all former distinctions. The ability of America to amalgamate a great number of complex things into a few vague ideas and attach them to a label and an identity is very distinctive of her as a great country. Consider merely On_Slaught's insistence that America's essence is embodied in her constitution. France was a land, England was a people, but America, having about it still that quality of the idea, was harder to utter - it was the graves at Shiloh and the tired, drawn, nervous faces of its great men, and the country boys dying in the Argonne for a phrase that was empty before their bodies withered. It was a willingness of the heart. Sarcasm? I never said her essence was in the Constitution, I said the foundation was literally the Constitution, which it is. Said constitution doesn't allow for any sort of religious requirements or disqualifications for Presidential eligibility. To say otherwise based on Christian grounds is it's own form of religious totalitarianism (which is what Carson and Co. seem afraid of here ironically). That's all I'm trying to say.
Not entirely sarcastic, because the United States and a few similar countries are global refugee camps for people fleeing the burdens of memory and history. The art of self-invention is that old American virtue that even now, only a few cynical gadflies have begun to call "lying." How else do you explain widespread acceptance of Donald Trump's "Christianity"?
The United States has a latent need to identity her national essence with universal ideas unconditioned by history and experience. Its belief that all mankind has an American soul awaiting liberation is the reason that American nationalism has a difficult time attaching itself to anything ephemeral, bounded and limited by the realities of time and space.
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On September 21 2015 05:39 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 05:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 21 2015 05:31 IgnE wrote:
Identifying as "Christian" is not the same as being one. Catholics know that when people are talking about "Christians" they mean one thing, and when they talk about "Catholics" they mean another. I know many Catholics that think like this, dare I say most of them, and I grew up going to Mass every day in Latin. How are you defining Christian and Catholic? It sounds like you're purposely being ambiguous. A Christian is merely someone who believes that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, etc. etc. All the intricacies in the Bible that are cherry picked or ignored- along with how literally the Bible is interpreted- helps further define your sect of Christianity (e.g., Catholic). But I've never met a single Catholic who rejects the central tenet of Christianity- that Jesus is God/ Son of God. Because otherwise, they wouldn't be Christian, let alone Catholic. Yo man I fucking know what the definition is, but I'm talking about Catholic mentality here. "Christian" has a connotation in America. It's a vulgar, dirty word in many parts and to many people, including Catholics, they don't like being called "Christian," especially when they think you are lumping them in with those Bible-thumpers.
Well you're speaking anecdotally, and it's inappropriate to say that all Catholics don't like to be called Christian. You have no idea what everyone's mentality is. I was born and raised Catholic, and know plenty of other Catholics who are more than happy to be called Christian, because they can stand united under the most important tenet of Christianity: Jesus. It's obviously important to differentiate between mainstream Christians (Catholics, Protestants, etc.) and Christian fundamentalists (KKK, WBC, etc.), but you don't speak for all Catholics, unless you're the Pope.
And you thought Deism was a sect of Christianity, and that the United States was built on Christianity instead of secularism and freedom of religion, so I thought that maybe you were also just misspeaking about your semantics argument regarding Catholics too.
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On September 21 2015 05:50 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 05:42 Chocolate wrote:
Honestly the fact that you are ignorant of all this just suggests that you are ignorant in general about the "founding values" of the US How about the college kid who doesn't know anything about Catholics stops chiming in with secondhand anecdotes? It makes you seem ignorant in general (EDIT) about religion.
I went to Catholic school for 12 years and was raised as a Catholic, but thanks for attacking me and not what I'm saying
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Carson is quickly turning into another Jindal, though it must be said Carson did actually accomplish something as a surgeon
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Catholic school ain't what it used to be.
You are only allowed to say you were "raised Catholic" if you went to Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation until you became adult enough to defy your parents' wishes. We had a term for most American Catholics (those who identified as Christian maybe?), and it was "Catholic-buts." As in, "I'm Catholic, but . . . I don't go to Mass/follow the catechism/fast during Lent/believe Mary was a virgin."
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On September 21 2015 05:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
Carson is quickly turning into another Jindal, though it must be said Carson did actually accomplish something as a surgeon
And then I guess he gave himself a lobotomy or something.
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whatever dude, I thought we were talking about judeo-christian values being founding values of the US
also, google "no true scotsman" and "ad hominem"
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On September 21 2015 05:57 IgnE wrote:
Catholic school ain't what it used to be.
You are only allowed to say you were "raised Catholic" if you went to Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation until you became adult enough to defy your parents' wishes. We had a term for most American Catholics (those who identified as Christian maybe?), and it was "Catholic-buts." As in, "I'm Catholic, but . . . I don't go to Mass/follow the catechism/fast during Lent/believe Mary was a virgin."
For the love of Jesus, read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Over and over and over again, you're excluding Catholics who disagree with your mentality and assuming that they're not real Catholics. That's a logical fallacy. Real Catholics don't like being called Christian; real Catholics must go to "Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation".
Please stop. Other people know Catholicism too.
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The entire argument is garbage because the only evidence that IgnE will accept is one of the people who wrote the constitution and bill of rights as a "non-christian". The evidence in previous writing by Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and James Madison clearly show they did not think the church should have any role in the decision of government. Of course the nation reflected the people who lived in it at the time of its founding, but the founding fathers understood that would change.
Edit: Wow, the "your only Catholic when I say your Catholic," argument. This is some garbage tier banter.
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Carson is kind of reminding me of Carter. Carter of course wasn't saying things quite as dumb as Carson is saying; but Carter is generally regarded as a poor president, but a good ex-president humanitarian do-gooder.
I think similarly Carson would be a bad president, but a good humanitarian do-gooder.
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Seems like part the confusion is " Judeo-Christian values," which in the context normally appropriate when discussing US history, has very little to do with the first commandment, lol.
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To be fair, Western monotheistic religions are probably the only place where a "true scotsman" actually exists, at least within religion.
Of course, the judge of the "real Christians" is supposedly God, not whiny people on the internet.
Not to mention that the bible is supposed to define everything that you're supposed to follow, so really in 2015 every last one of you are probably blasphemers.
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On September 21 2015 06:04 zlefin wrote:
Carson is kind of reminding me of Carter. Carter of course wasn't saying things quite as dumb as Carson is saying; but Carter is generally regarded as a poor president, but a good ex-president humanitarian do-gooder.
I think similarly Carson would be a bad president, but a good humanitarian do-gooder.
You should probably familiarize yourself with Carson's medieval views on homosexuality, religion, and basically anything not related to clinical surgery before you compare him with someone as accomplished as Carter. There's a reason why Carter was practically an arm of the State Department for decades after his presidency.
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On September 21 2015 06:05 Introvert wrote:
Seems like part the confusion is " Judeo-Christian values," which in the context normally appropriate when discussing US history, has very little to do with the first commandment, lol.
Its a self proving argument. The founding fathers governed the country by their own values, which happened to be "Judeo-Christian". But they did not write that into the Constitution. They wrote that the people who were elected, and by extension the people as a whole, would decided which the values of the nation. But of course the people who govern also feel the best way to govern is by their values, because they were elected by the people based on that.
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On September 21 2015 06:09 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 06:04 zlefin wrote:
Carson is kind of reminding me of Carter. Carter of course wasn't saying things quite as dumb as Carson is saying; but Carter is generally regarded as a poor president, but a good ex-president humanitarian do-gooder.
I think similarly Carson would be a bad president, but a good humanitarian do-gooder. You should probably familiarize yourself with Carson's medieval views on homosexuality, religion, and basically anything not related to clinical surgery before you compare him with someone as accomplished as Carter. There's a reason why Carter was practically an arm of the State Department for decades after his presidency.
I'm quite aware of carson's idiocy; but he still may be useable as a do-gooder with some guidance, in a carefully chosen area.
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On September 21 2015 06:09 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 06:04 zlefin wrote:
Carson is kind of reminding me of Carter. Carter of course wasn't saying things quite as dumb as Carson is saying; but Carter is generally regarded as a poor president, but a good ex-president humanitarian do-gooder.
I think similarly Carson would be a bad president, but a good humanitarian do-gooder. You should probably familiarize yourself with Carson's medieval views on homosexuality, religion, and basically anything not related to clinical surgery before you compare him with someone as accomplished as Carter. There's a reason why Carter was practically an arm of the State Department for decades after his presidency.
That's true. Ben Carson is tenuous on vaccines (not the autism part, but he thinks that they must be spread out), doesn't accept evolution, thinks homosexuality is a choice, thinks marijuana is a gateway drug, etc. etc. How he was a functional doctor with such a monstrous compartmentalization is beyond me. The rejection of scientific and medical facts might just be him playing politics, though... but you can never safely assume that he's only *pretending* to be an idiot.
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Carson also said he favors a tithe system solely because of the Bible.
The fact him and Trump are in the top 3 are proof enough that a large segment of the Republican base simply doesn't care about the issues, or is living in some fantasy land.
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On September 21 2015 06:18 On_Slaught wrote:
Carson also said he favors a tithe system solely because of the Bible.
The fact him and Trump are in the top 3 are proof enough that a large segment of the Republican base simply doesn't care about the issues, or is living in some fantasy land.
The Republican party is based on Judeo-Christian principles.
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On September 21 2015 05:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 05:57 IgnE wrote:
Catholic school ain't what it used to be.
You are only allowed to say you were "raised Catholic" if you went to Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation until you became adult enough to defy your parents' wishes. We had a term for most American Catholics (those who identified as Christian maybe?), and it was "Catholic-buts." As in, "I'm Catholic, but . . . I don't go to Mass/follow the catechism/fast during Lent/believe Mary was a virgin." For the love of Jesus, read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Over and over and over again, you're excluding Catholics who disagree with your mentality and assuming that they're not real Catholics. That's a logical fallacy. Real Catholics don't like being called Christian; real Catholics must go to "Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation". Please stop. Other people know Catholicism too.
This parsing of everything into logical categories is not only boring but reinforces the particular narrative to which I was responding in the first place:
On September 21 2015 05:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:It is extraordinary that Christianity has in the United States now been crowded into a single ideological bloc for political purposes; merely a century ago there were considerable social cleavages between Episcopalians and Methodists, or between Slovak and Hungarian Catholics who resided in the same neighbourhoods. Generic Religion and Generic Race have replaced all former distinctions. The ability of America to amalgamate a great number of complex things into a few vague ideas and attach them to a label and an identity is very distinctive of her as a great country. Consider merely On_Slaught's insistence that America's essence is embodied in her constitution. Show nested quote +France was a land, England was a people, but America, having about it still that quality of the idea, was harder to utter - it was the graves at Shiloh and the tired, drawn, nervous faces of its great men, and the country boys dying in the Argonne for a phrase that was empty before their bodies withered. It was a willingness of the heart.
It's been a riveting time going back and forth with the Boolean posters here, but you guys seem to have missed the point.
And despite the fact that most of your sarcasm filters are broken, I was genuinely interested in the deist headcount for signers of the Constitution. Most of you like to dodge direct questions by shouting down opponents so I don't think I'll get an answer from you, sadly.
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How dare we attempt to use logic in such a setting!
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