EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2318
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:02 IgnE wrote: The foundation of this great country, sir. It literally isn't. The literal foundation of this country is the Constitution, which people like you and Carson seem fine to ignore because you don't like people that think differently than you. This stance is in direct defiance to what this country stands for and what it was founded on (*cough religious freedom *cough). Furthermore, there is plenty in Christianity that isn't compatible with the Constitution if we took a hard stance like he is applying to Muslims. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
France was a land, England was a people, but America, having about it still that quality of the idea, was harder to utter - it was the graves at Shiloh and the tired, drawn, nervous faces of its great men, and the country boys dying in the Argonne for a phrase that was empty before their bodies withered. It was a willingness of the heart. | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
But they vote however their pastor tells them, so Ben Carson isn't talking to them. On September 21 2015 05:19 Chocolate wrote: Deists were pretty much the 18th century version of atheists though Deists believed in Christ and his redeeming power, did they not? Judeo-christian values, like I said. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:17 MoltkeWarding wrote: It is extraordinary that Christianity has in the United States now been crowded into a single ideological bloc for political purposes; merely a century ago there were considerable social cleavages between Episcopalians and Methodists, or between Slovak and Hungarian Catholics who resided in the same neighbourhoods. Generic Religion and Generic Race have replaced all former distinctions. The ability of America to amalgamate a great number of complex things into a few vague ideas and attach them to a label and an identity is very distinctive of her as a great country. Consider merely On_Slaught's insistence that America's essence is embodied in her constitution. Sarcasm? I never said her essence was in the Constitution, I said the foundation was literally the Constitution, which it is. Said constitution doesn't allow for any sort of religious requirements or disqualifications for Presidential eligibility. To say otherwise based on Christian grounds is it's own form of religious totalitarianism (which is what Carson and Co. seem afraid of here ironically). That's all I'm trying to say. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46516 Posts
On September 21 2015 04:48 On_Slaught wrote: Well, Ben Carson can go fuck himself. I can't be the only one who is astonished by the irony and hypocrisy of him saying that Muslims shouldn't be president. That should pretty much disqualify him from winning in a general election. Of course it will play fine in the Republican party. Are you really astonished though? I'm disappointed, embarrassed, offended, etc. But not surprised. Not really. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46516 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:20 IgnE wrote: Catholics hardly consider themselves "Christian" in the vulgar sense, nor most Orthodox. But they vote however their pastor tells them, so Ben Carson isn't talking to them. Deists believed in Christ and his redeeming power, did they not? Judeo-christian values, like I said. Um, no? That's exactly not what a deist is. Also, what do you mean that Catholics don't consider themselves Christians? That's a rather baseless thing to say, how people identify. Especially since Catholicism is a sect of Christianity. I don't know a single Catholic who doesn't call himself a Christian, because he'd be categorically wrong, by definition. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46516 Posts
On September 21 2015 04:55 IgnE wrote: It's judeo-christian values, not islamic values. On September 21 2015 05:02 IgnE wrote: The foundation of this great country, sir. You can't possibly think that this country was based on specifically Judeo-Christian values. What the heck are you talking about? Last time I checked, the First Amendment is about as anti-Ten Commandments are you can get. Freedoms of speech and expression and religion (and thought, for that matter) are explicitly banned in the Bible as nonnegotiable laws. Just read the First Commandment, for a start- the fact that you're not allowed to have any other religious beliefs besides believing in the Judeo-Christian God. This isn't a theocracy, nor was it developed with that intention, nor were most of the founding fathers even religious. Most were staunch deists/ atheists. And you can't cherry pick a few odd Biblical quotes that aren't J-C specific, or predate J-C, etc. Like hey, the golden rule is nice, yet it's not a J-C specific principle (and certainly predates them). | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46516 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:31 IgnE wrote: Identifying as "Christian" is not the same as being one. Catholics know that when people are talking about "Christians" they mean one thing, and when they talk about "Catholics" they mean another. I know many Catholics that think like this, dare I say most of them, and I grew up going to Mass every day in Latin. How are you defining Christian and Catholic? It sounds like you're purposely being ambiguous. A Christian is merely someone who believes that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, etc. etc. All the intricacies in the Bible that are cherry picked or ignored- along with how literally the Bible is interpreted- helps further define your sect of Christianity (e.g., Catholic). But I've never met a single Catholic who rejects the central tenet of Christianity- that Jesus is God/ Son of God. Because otherwise, they wouldn't be Christian, let alone Catholic. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: How are you defining Christian and Catholic? It sounds like you're purposely being ambiguous. A Christian is merely someone who believes that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, etc. etc. All the intricacies in the Bible that are cherry picked or ignored- along with how literally the Bible is interpreted- helps further define your sect of Christianity (e.g., Catholic). But I've never met a single Catholic who rejects the central tenet of Christianity- that Jesus is God/ Son of God. Because otherwise, they wouldn't be Christian, let alone Catholic. Yo man I fucking know what the definition is, but I'm talking about Catholic mentality here. "Christian" has a connotation in America. It's a vulgar, dirty word in many parts and to many people, including Catholics, and they don't like being called "Christian," especially when they think you are lumping them in with those Bible-thumpers. | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:20 IgnE wrote: Catholics hardly consider themselves "Christian" in the vulgar sense, nor most Orthodox. But they vote however their pastor tells them, so Ben Carson isn't talking to them. Deists believed in Christ and his redeeming power, did they not? Judeo-christian values, like I said. I know non-catholic Christians who don't consider Catholics Christian, but I don't know any Catholics that don't consider themselves to be Christian. And no, Deists believed that a higher power probably set things in motion, but that hadn't done anything since then. And a very significant portion of founding fathers were Deist | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46516 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:39 IgnE wrote: Define "most" of the founding fathers. Which of the ones that signed the Constitution were deists, which were Calvinists, etc.? I think we need a headcount. Just because a person was a Christian doesn't mean he was starting a theocracy or that any Christian-specific beliefs were being invoked. There's a difference between being a Christian founding father and saying that the USA was based upon J-C beliefs. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
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Introvert
United States5044 Posts
All you have to do is read what many of the FF said and it becomes obvious. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:42 Chocolate wrote: Honestly the fact that you are ignorant of all this just suggests that you are ignorant in general about the "founding values" of the US How about the college kid who doesn't know anything about Catholics stops chiming in with secondhand anecdotes? It makes you seem ignorant in general (EDIT) about religion. | ||
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