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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.
Things can be about more than one thing. This is why we are encouraged from a young age (hopefully) to think about the consequences of our actions, and its why we should hold politicians and public figures to a higher standard of thinking.
The fact is, although the main purpose of pro-life thinking is to conserve life, the way it is implemented is usually to completely disregard the rights, needs and life of the already alive. I believe George Carlin said something like this once.
In disregarding actual living beings in this way, pro-lifers are not thinking about the consequences of their actions, or they don't care about the consequences of their actions. So, they are either oppressive or completely dumb.
Now that's obtuse.
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On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal.
The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights?
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On August 28 2015 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.
Things can be about more than one thing. This is why we are encouraged from a young age (hopefully) to think about the consequences of our actions, and its why we should hold politicians and public figures to a higher standard of thinking. The fact is, although the main purpose of pro-life thinking is to conserve life, the way it is implemented is usually to completely disregard the rights, needs and life of the already alive. I believe George Carlin said something like this once. In disregarding actual living beings in this way, pro-lifers are not thinking about the consequences of their actions, or they don't care about the consequences of their actions. So, they are either oppressive or completely dumb. Now that's obtuse.
Pro life people understand their actions they simply value peoples lives over peoples rights. Its in the basic name scheme between the two sides. Pro choice people believe that peoples right to chose is more important then peoples right to live.
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On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights?
They are allowed to have that opinion and I respect that. Right until they try to write laws trying to enforce that point of view on others and take away rights. At that point my respect for them goes out the window.
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from their point of view, pro-choicers are taking away the rights of fetuses to have a chance at life
like i'm also pro choice but it's one of those things where it's an unresolveable philosophical question, not a black and white one of "women's rights should win (because they exist already and thus take more precedence)", because that parenthetical reasoning is an opinion just like "the babies' rights should win"
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United States42654 Posts
On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights?
Inaction by the pregnant woman or opting out of the pregnancy is not the same thing as a murder. Choosing not to feed someone is not the same as starving someone, denying a fetus your womb to grow in is not the same as denying it life. Also even the Bible doesn't think killing a fetus is murder.
We live in a society in which you can be a kidney donor match for someone who will die if they don't get your kidney and do nothing, even though you will be fine with just one. This is a society in which the freedom to pay for more truck, or a fancier phone, than you need is treasured over taxes that would definitely save lives. This is a society that respects liberty far more than it respects human life. And that's fine, the degree to which we are obliged to help others is a difficult question and nobody has a perfect answer to it. But forced medical procedures are a hell of a long way from where we're currently at as a society.
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Inaction by the pregnant woman or opting out of the pregnancy is not the same thing as a murder. Choosing not to feed someone is not the same as starving someone, denying a fetus your womb to grow in is not the same as denying it life. Also even the Bible doesn't think killing a fetus is murder.
these are all philosophical opinions, not facts
the rest of your post is a questionable analogy, because denying a fetus access to your womb is not something i would call inaction
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United States42654 Posts
On August 28 2015 08:30 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.
Things can be about more than one thing. This is why we are encouraged from a young age (hopefully) to think about the consequences of our actions, and its why we should hold politicians and public figures to a higher standard of thinking. The fact is, although the main purpose of pro-life thinking is to conserve life, the way it is implemented is usually to completely disregard the rights, needs and life of the already alive. I believe George Carlin said something like this once. In disregarding actual living beings in this way, pro-lifers are not thinking about the consequences of their actions, or they don't care about the consequences of their actions. So, they are either oppressive or completely dumb. Now that's obtuse. Pro life people understand their actions they simply value peoples lives over peoples rights. Its in the basic name scheme between the two sides. Pro choice people believe that peoples right to chose is more important then peoples right to live.
I propose that pro life people be put on a registry for mandatory non fatal organ donation then. Whenever someone is dying and needs an organ that can be extracted without killing the donor (kidneys, partial liver and so forth) they take one from a pro lifer. If they resist then we'll chant resistance is murder at them and then make laws that allow us to take the organs by force.
You may call me a little extreme but think of all the lives that would be saved.
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I have sometimes wondered what pro life people would describe if they were asked what the development of a human looks like weeks 1,2,3 til 8 or so. I think some people actually believe it looks even remotely like a baby pretty early on. It's just a bundle of goop for so long. Blows my mind to see that defended as human.
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On August 28 2015 08:12 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 07:50 Ghostcom wrote:On August 28 2015 07:23 zlefin wrote:On August 28 2015 07:12 Ghostcom wrote:I think it is time for everyone on this page to go and read the mod note, then go to page one, and then stop violating rules 1-5. It has been going downhill for a long time in this thread, but debate is literally impossible now and it has become very very very frustrating to read + Show Spoiler +"Don't read it then hurr durrr" - no, I'm interested in US politics, I want to follow discuss it, but the environment for that has been entirely destroyed EDIT: Damn you CCstealthblue - everyone minus CCstealthblue. well, I've made threads in website feedback pushing for higher moderation standards in this thread and in general discussion, but there has not been much interest, so I expect we're just too reasonable for most people Well, I've been debating about making that post for weeks as I'm largely against backseat moderating and would much rather leave that stuff to the mods, but frankly they have been, and are, failing in this thread - despite the very nice start it had. Very nice start this thread had? Do you know how fucking long it took us to stop arguing about health care? Gh is a much more tame version of samisdat and johhny/daunt is tame compared to the people who got weeded out at the start. My point has nothing to do with abortion. Replace the issue with any other issue and suddenly calling the other half of america (that doesn't agree with you) no better then ISIS is completely unacceptable. The whole issue is unarguable because its ruined from the beginning. People don't agree when life begins so one side believes its a balance between subjugation and murder while the other side thinks the first side just wants subjugation for the sake of subjugation. Basic differences in terms use makes the gun control debate look coherent.
I was here from the start of the thread, so yes. All the posters you are mentioning were no more destructive (including sam!zdat whom I for the record was very happy to see go) than what we see now. There was a very nice period where people would back up what they wrote with sources, argue the ACTUAL points of their opposition, and in general follow rules 1-5.
I'm unsure about how your second paragraph pertains to me encouraging people to be more respectful? I think we agree, except it seems to me that you have simply given up on, whereas I hope people can go back to what they did at one (admittedly long gone) point? Perhaps we should continue this discussion in PMs so as to not derail this thread further?
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On August 28 2015 08:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:30 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.
Things can be about more than one thing. This is why we are encouraged from a young age (hopefully) to think about the consequences of our actions, and its why we should hold politicians and public figures to a higher standard of thinking. The fact is, although the main purpose of pro-life thinking is to conserve life, the way it is implemented is usually to completely disregard the rights, needs and life of the already alive. I believe George Carlin said something like this once. In disregarding actual living beings in this way, pro-lifers are not thinking about the consequences of their actions, or they don't care about the consequences of their actions. So, they are either oppressive or completely dumb. Now that's obtuse. Pro life people understand their actions they simply value peoples lives over peoples rights. Its in the basic name scheme between the two sides. Pro choice people believe that peoples right to chose is more important then peoples right to live. I propose that pro life people be put on a registry for mandatory non fatal organ donation then. Whenever someone is dying and needs an organ that can be extracted without killing the donor (kidneys, partial liver and so forth) they take one from a pro lifer. If they resist then we'll chant resistance is murder at them and then make laws that allow us to take the organs by force. You may call me a little extreme but think of all the lives that would be saved.
We also need to force them to sign up for adoption agencies so they can adopt all the lives they are saving. Its clear the parents don't want these children because they want a abortion and those children shouldn't grow up in an loveless home.
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On August 28 2015 08:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights? They are allowed to have that opinion and I respect that. Right until they try to write laws trying to enforce that point of view on others and take away rights. At that point my respect for them goes out the window.
This is the same argument that the NRA has about guns. Can you understand how that's being a bit unreasonable?
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United States42654 Posts
On August 28 2015 08:45 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:31 Plansix wrote:On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights? They are allowed to have that opinion and I respect that. Right until they try to write laws trying to enforce that point of view on others and take away rights. At that point my respect for them goes out the window. This is the same argument that the NRA has about guns. Can you understand how that's being a bit unreasonable?
I don't see it as unreasonable. I don't disrespect the NRA view, I just disagree with it. It comes down to liberty. The NRA believes that the government stops before it gets to people's guns. Pro-choice people believe that government stops before it gets to your body (but some draw the line after gun and before body). Pro-life people believe that government goes all the way inside you.
You can draw the line at different points and argue it. Personally I think there is a huge difference between legislating on possessions and legislating on body parts.
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On August 28 2015 08:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:30 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.
Things can be about more than one thing. This is why we are encouraged from a young age (hopefully) to think about the consequences of our actions, and its why we should hold politicians and public figures to a higher standard of thinking. The fact is, although the main purpose of pro-life thinking is to conserve life, the way it is implemented is usually to completely disregard the rights, needs and life of the already alive. I believe George Carlin said something like this once. In disregarding actual living beings in this way, pro-lifers are not thinking about the consequences of their actions, or they don't care about the consequences of their actions. So, they are either oppressive or completely dumb. Now that's obtuse. Pro life people understand their actions they simply value peoples lives over peoples rights. Its in the basic name scheme between the two sides. Pro choice people believe that peoples right to chose is more important then peoples right to live. I propose that pro life people be put on a registry for mandatory non fatal organ donation then. Whenever someone is dying and needs an organ that can be extracted without killing the donor (kidneys, partial liver and so forth) they take one from a pro lifer. If they resist then we'll chant resistance is murder at them and then make laws that allow us to take the organs by force. You may call me a little extreme but think of all the lives that would be saved.
The two situations are not actually morally comparable. It's the classic trolley problem just rephrased. In this case, pushing the fat man on the tracks is the abortion whilst changing the tracks is the organ donation. If you really wanted a good parallel you would quote Judith Jarvis Thomson and the violinist issue. Which can also arguably be deconstructed.
EDIT: Of course I'm talking laymans terms, this is a video-game forum...
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On August 28 2015 08:45 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:31 Plansix wrote:On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights? They are allowed to have that opinion and I respect that. Right until they try to write laws trying to enforce that point of view on others and take away rights. At that point my respect for them goes out the window. This is the same argument that the NRA has about guns. Can you understand how that's being a bit unreasonable?
I'm not taking away their right to vote. I don't want them to die or even move. They can live next to me and I won't have an issue. They can buy food, protest what they want and I won't care.
I just don't feel any need to be nice to them. If engaged by them, I will tell them that I don't' like their opinion and don't respect it. I don't have to be nice to them if the topic of abortion comes up. That's America. We exist next to people that we think kinda suck and we all vote once a year.
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United States42654 Posts
On August 28 2015 08:50 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:39 KwarK wrote:On August 28 2015 08:30 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.
Things can be about more than one thing. This is why we are encouraged from a young age (hopefully) to think about the consequences of our actions, and its why we should hold politicians and public figures to a higher standard of thinking. The fact is, although the main purpose of pro-life thinking is to conserve life, the way it is implemented is usually to completely disregard the rights, needs and life of the already alive. I believe George Carlin said something like this once. In disregarding actual living beings in this way, pro-lifers are not thinking about the consequences of their actions, or they don't care about the consequences of their actions. So, they are either oppressive or completely dumb. Now that's obtuse. Pro life people understand their actions they simply value peoples lives over peoples rights. Its in the basic name scheme between the two sides. Pro choice people believe that peoples right to chose is more important then peoples right to live. I propose that pro life people be put on a registry for mandatory non fatal organ donation then. Whenever someone is dying and needs an organ that can be extracted without killing the donor (kidneys, partial liver and so forth) they take one from a pro lifer. If they resist then we'll chant resistance is murder at them and then make laws that allow us to take the organs by force. You may call me a little extreme but think of all the lives that would be saved. The two situations are not actually morally comparable. It's the classic trolley problem just rephrased. In this case, pushing the fat man on the tracks is the abortion whilst changing the tracks is the organ donation. If you really wanted a good parallel you would quote Judith Jarvis Thomson and the violinist issue. Which can also arguably be deconstructed.
You're assuming that an abortion has to be an active measure and that babies just passively happen if you don't change your prepregancy routine. Firstly, that's not how it works. Secondly, the counterexample of a woman who abuses her body routinely to the point of an induced miscarriage.
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On August 28 2015 08:50 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:39 KwarK wrote:On August 28 2015 08:30 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 08:21 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.
Things can be about more than one thing. This is why we are encouraged from a young age (hopefully) to think about the consequences of our actions, and its why we should hold politicians and public figures to a higher standard of thinking. The fact is, although the main purpose of pro-life thinking is to conserve life, the way it is implemented is usually to completely disregard the rights, needs and life of the already alive. I believe George Carlin said something like this once. In disregarding actual living beings in this way, pro-lifers are not thinking about the consequences of their actions, or they don't care about the consequences of their actions. So, they are either oppressive or completely dumb. Now that's obtuse. Pro life people understand their actions they simply value peoples lives over peoples rights. Its in the basic name scheme between the two sides. Pro choice people believe that peoples right to chose is more important then peoples right to live. I propose that pro life people be put on a registry for mandatory non fatal organ donation then. Whenever someone is dying and needs an organ that can be extracted without killing the donor (kidneys, partial liver and so forth) they take one from a pro lifer. If they resist then we'll chant resistance is murder at them and then make laws that allow us to take the organs by force. You may call me a little extreme but think of all the lives that would be saved. The two situations are not actually morally comparable. It's the classic trolley problem just rephrased. In this case, pushing the fat man on the tracks is the abortion whilst changing the tracks is the organ donation. If you really wanted a good parallel you would quote Judith Jarvis Thomson and the violinist issue. Which can also arguably be deconstructed.
technically any viewpoint of absoluteness can be deconstructed (or even any writing, that's the whole point of differance and arche writing). that's the entire point of deconstruction . you think the objections can be raised to the argument fine but don't talk about deconstruction because that's something entirely different. thanks
(or at least clarify you mean the laymen's term of deconstructed. sry if this came off as a bit harsh. If you want to talk about actual deconstruction then you could use it to deconstruct abrtion bans as an attempt by the people in power to consolidate their power and continue the marginalization of the the outside term in the binary opposite of man/women )
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On August 28 2015 08:36 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights? Inaction by the pregnant woman or opting out of the pregnancy is not the same thing as a murder. Choosing not to feed someone is not the same as starving someone, denying a fetus your womb to grow in is not the same as denying it life. Also even the Bible doesn't think killing a fetus is murder. We live in a society in which you can be a kidney donor match for someone who will die if they don't get your kidney and do nothing, even though you will be fine with just one. This is a society in which the freedom to pay for more truck, or a fancier phone, than you need is treasured over taxes that would definitely save lives. This is a society that respects liberty far more than it respects human life. And that's fine, the degree to which we are obliged to help others is a difficult question and nobody has a perfect answer to it. But forced medical procedures are a hell of a long way from where we're currently at as a society.
I'm not arguing about abortion kwark. I can't actually argue with your first paragraph at all I've never seen it from that point of view.I'm arguing that calling half the country who don't agree with you, regardless of the issues let alone one thats so personally held on either side, terrorists and no better then ISIS is utterly unacceptable and completely shameless.
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On August 28 2015 08:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:36 KwarK wrote:On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights? Inaction by the pregnant woman or opting out of the pregnancy is not the same thing as a murder. Choosing not to feed someone is not the same as starving someone, denying a fetus your womb to grow in is not the same as denying it life. Also even the Bible doesn't think killing a fetus is murder. We live in a society in which you can be a kidney donor match for someone who will die if they don't get your kidney and do nothing, even though you will be fine with just one. This is a society in which the freedom to pay for more truck, or a fancier phone, than you need is treasured over taxes that would definitely save lives. This is a society that respects liberty far more than it respects human life. And that's fine, the degree to which we are obliged to help others is a difficult question and nobody has a perfect answer to it. But forced medical procedures are a hell of a long way from where we're currently at as a society. I'm not arguing about abortion kwark. I can't actually argue with your first paragraph at all I've never seen it from that point of view.I'm arguing that calling half the country who don't agree with you, regardless of the issues let alone one thats so personally held on either side, terrorists and no better then ISIS is utterly unacceptable and completely shameless.
Only around 20% of the country thinks abortion should be illegal under any circumstances, which is what she is talking about. And you're real complaint is that Hilary might have hurt the feelings of people that will never vote for her?
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United States42654 Posts
On August 28 2015 08:56 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 08:36 KwarK wrote:On August 28 2015 08:27 Sermokala wrote:On August 28 2015 07:59 Plansix wrote:
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.
So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.
And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal. The problem with this argument (which is well constructed I must complement you on) is that you're arguing that the mother has the right to murder their child if they don't want to bring it to term. Can you understand and respect that people value the child's life more then the mothers rights? Inaction by the pregnant woman or opting out of the pregnancy is not the same thing as a murder. Choosing not to feed someone is not the same as starving someone, denying a fetus your womb to grow in is not the same as denying it life. Also even the Bible doesn't think killing a fetus is murder. We live in a society in which you can be a kidney donor match for someone who will die if they don't get your kidney and do nothing, even though you will be fine with just one. This is a society in which the freedom to pay for more truck, or a fancier phone, than you need is treasured over taxes that would definitely save lives. This is a society that respects liberty far more than it respects human life. And that's fine, the degree to which we are obliged to help others is a difficult question and nobody has a perfect answer to it. But forced medical procedures are a hell of a long way from where we're currently at as a society. I'm not arguing about abortion kwark. I can't actually argue with your first paragraph at all I've never seen it from that point of view.I'm arguing that calling half the country who don't agree with you, regardless of the issues let alone one thats so personally held on either side, terrorists and no better then ISIS is utterly unacceptable and completely shameless.
Nobody said that the Republican party is literally ISIS. Only ISIS is literally ISIS. You're disagreeing with something that nobody anywhere said or thinks. Also nobody called anyone terrorists and nobody said anyone was no better than ISIS.
However the comparison, in terms of religious fundamentalist views on controlling women, is apt. Maybe better comparisons could have been made but the comparison holds up. A comparison can have a limited scope. If I called you as dumb as a rock that doesn't mean I'm a making a comment about your hardness, durability or composition.
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