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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2247

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 27 2015 21:24 GMT
#44921
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

They just want government to be small enough to fit in the bedroom and women's doctor's office.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14047 Posts
August 27 2015 21:29 GMT
#44922
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

The Republican party doesn't want to control women's bodies they believe the fetus has the right to live. If you don't agree with someone's view you don't get the right to twist their views. You don't see republicans calling dems pro baby murder or anti baby rights.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14047 Posts
August 27 2015 21:33 GMT
#44923
On August 28 2015 06:24 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

They just want government to be small enough to fit in the bedroom and women's doctor's office.

Having a problem with abortion doesn't make you anti women's health. Pp does more then 90% of its services that have no political objections but you take away abortions and suddenly they can't function and need to be shut down?
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18118 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-27 21:34:22
August 27 2015 21:33 GMT
#44924
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

On the same page where someone posts a video complaining about republican wedges when democrats raise hell over the other side only having a problem with one thing pp does and calling it a war on women.

Yup. It's disgraceful. She even had blood coming out of her.. wherever.

+ Show Spoiler +
In case there are any Romanians here: this was sarcasm
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43232 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-27 21:35:32
August 27 2015 21:34 GMT
#44925
On August 28 2015 06:29 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

The Republican party doesn't want to control women's bodies they believe the fetus has the right to live. If you don't agree with someone's view you don't get the right to twist their views. You don't see republicans calling dems pro baby murder or anti baby rights.

It goes beyond that. The fetus having a right to life would be going "be free little fetus" as you release it into the wild. That's not what Republicans want. They're demanding that women surrender their bodies to be incubators for the fetus until it becomes a baby. That's literally their view. I'm not misrepresenting it. Women must surrender their autonomy in favour of the fetus. Failing to surrender your body and become an incubator is to be illegal.

Men wouldn't stand for that bullshit.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-27 21:36:53
August 27 2015 21:34 GMT
#44926
On August 28 2015 06:29 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

The Republican party doesn't want to control women's bodies they believe the fetus has the right to live. If you don't agree with someone's view you don't get the right to twist their views. You don't see republicans calling dems pro baby murder or anti baby rights.

No, they only want to force women to have the child of the person that raped them. That is a huge upgrade. So much better.

Maybe they should just not talk about abortion and they won't get angry response from women who are tried of men trying to tell them what they can and can't do with their bodies.

On August 28 2015 06:33 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:24 Plansix wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

They just want government to be small enough to fit in the bedroom and women's doctor's office.

Having a problem with abortion doesn't make you anti women's health. Pp does more then 90% of its services that have no political objections but you take away abortions and suddenly they can't function and need to be shut down?

Yes it does. Because they are legal and religion doesn't fact into how we write laws concerning medical issues. Taking away abortions is an assault on women's health and an attempt to control them.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21953 Posts
August 27 2015 21:37 GMT
#44927
On August 28 2015 06:34 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:29 Sermokala wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

The Republican party doesn't want to control women's bodies they believe the fetus has the right to live. If you don't agree with someone's view you don't get the right to twist their views. You don't see republicans calling dems pro baby murder or anti baby rights.

No, they only want to force women to have the child of the person that raped them. That is a huge upgrade. So much better.

Maybe they should just not talk about abortion and they won't get angry response from women who are tried of men trying to tell them what they can and can't do with their bodies.

The problem is they cannot avoid the subject.
The fact that their position on it is known will mean that people will keep calling them out on it even if they were to try and avoid it.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-27 21:42:47
August 27 2015 21:42 GMT
#44928
On August 28 2015 06:37 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 06:34 Plansix wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:29 Sermokala wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:23 KwarK wrote:
On August 28 2015 06:19 Sermokala wrote:
Calling your opponents terrorists for not agreeing with (in their view) murder is fucking shameless. At least have the dignity to respect people's views you don't agree with.

ISIS seek to control women's bodies. So do the Republican party. Do you respect the ISIS stance on female liberty?

The Republican party doesn't want to control women's bodies they believe the fetus has the right to live. If you don't agree with someone's view you don't get the right to twist their views. You don't see republicans calling dems pro baby murder or anti baby rights.

No, they only want to force women to have the child of the person that raped them. That is a huge upgrade. So much better.

Maybe they should just not talk about abortion and they won't get angry response from women who are tried of men trying to tell them what they can and can't do with their bodies.

The problem is they cannot avoid the subject.
The fact that their position on it is known will mean that people will keep calling them out on it even if they were to try and avoid it.

It's almost like have a position on women's health that came out of the dark ages is a bad move in the current political landscape. Weird.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4862 Posts
August 27 2015 22:06 GMT
#44929
This is always the amusing part of politics. No one on your side every says anything ridiculous or extreme, cause it's true when X says it! LOL. TIL the entirety of women's issues is abortion.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 27 2015 22:09 GMT
#44930
WASHINGTON -- McDonald's, Burger King and every other company that relies on a franchise business model just suffered the legal setback they've been fearing for years.

The National Labor Relations Board ruled on Thursday that Browning Ferris Industries, a waste management company, qualifies as a "joint employer" alongside one of its subcontractors. The decision effectively loosens the standards for who can be considered a worker's boss under labor law, and its impact will be felt in any industry that relies on franchising or outsourcing work. McDonald's, for instance, could now find itself forced to sit at the bargaining table with workers employed by a franchisee managing one of its restaurants.

That's a big deal. In the case of McDonald's, roughly 90 percent of its locations are actually run by franchisees, who are typically considered the workers' employers. One of the main reasons companies choose to franchise or to outsource work to staffing agencies is to shift workplace responsibilities onto someone else. But if a fast-food brand or a hotel chain can be deemed a "joint employer" along with the smaller company, it can be dragged into labor disputes and negotiations that it conveniently wouldn't have to worry about otherwise. In theory, such a precedent could even make it easier for workers to unionize as employees under the larger parent company.

The Democratic-majority board, whose members were appointed by President Barack Obama, ruled 3-2 along partisan lines, with the two Republicans dissenting.

In their decision, the Democratic members wrote that parent companies shouldn't be absolved of their obligations to workers at the bottom of the contracting chain.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-27 22:13:36
August 27 2015 22:12 GMT
#44931
I think it is time for everyone on this page to go and read the mod note, then go to page one, and then stop violating rules 1-5. It has been going downhill for a long time in this thread, but debate is literally impossible now and it has become very very very frustrating to read + Show Spoiler +
"Don't read it then hurr durrr" - no, I'm interested in US politics, I want to follow discuss it, but the environment for that has been entirely destroyed


EDIT: Damn you CCstealthblue - everyone minus CCstealthblue.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43232 Posts
August 27 2015 22:14 GMT
#44932
On August 28 2015 07:06 Introvert wrote:
This is always the amusing part of politics. No one on your side every says anything ridiculous or extreme, cause it's true when X says it! LOL. TIL the entirety of women's issues is abortion.

There's some dumb arguments on birth control and access to sexual health information too.

But there will always be a tendency to focus on the disputes and ignore the rest. Free market advocates attacking socialists never worry about their socialized army or judicial system for example. It gets boring to talk about the 99% of stuff that's so obscenely obvious to everyone it doesn't need discussing. So you take the remaining 1% and you turn it into a warzone because nobody wants to hear about how it's all pretty minor in the grand scheme of things given that both sides broadly agree that women count as people.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
August 27 2015 22:23 GMT
#44933
On August 28 2015 07:12 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is time for everyone on this page to go and read the mod note, then go to page one, and then stop violating rules 1-5. It has been going downhill for a long time in this thread, but debate is literally impossible now and it has become very very very frustrating to read + Show Spoiler +
"Don't read it then hurr durrr" - no, I'm interested in US politics, I want to follow discuss it, but the environment for that has been entirely destroyed


EDIT: Damn you CCstealthblue - everyone minus CCstealthblue.

well, I've made threads in website feedback pushing for higher moderation standards in this thread and in general discussion, but there has not been much interest, so I expect we're just too reasonable for most people
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
August 27 2015 22:44 GMT
#44934
Why are you guys being this purposefully obtuse?

The perspective from the Republican (religious right) standpoint is that life (and thus the right to life) begins at conception. A bunch of old white men did not huddle together and say " What's the best way we can subjugate women today? Oh, I know, we'll make them carry their pregnancies to term!" Rather, a group of (mostly old, white) religious men and women decided that since humans have souls, any relatively independent human life must also have a soul, and that ending the life of anything with a soul is a horrible act.

I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.

In my opinion you guys are no better than some country hicks raving about godless communist liberals trying to take away their guns. Hyperbole and strawmanning have no place in discussion of this sort and you know better than this
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43232 Posts
August 27 2015 22:49 GMT
#44935
On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
Why are you guys being this purposefully obtuse?

The perspective from the Republican (religious right) standpoint is that life (and thus the right to life) begins at conception. A bunch of old white men did not huddle together and say " What's the best way we can subjugate women today? Oh, I know, we'll make them carry their pregnancies to term!" Rather, a group of (mostly old, white) religious men and women decided that since humans have souls, any relatively independent human life must also have a soul, and that ending the life of anything with a soul is a horrible act.

I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.

In my opinion you guys are no better than some country hicks raving about godless communist liberals trying to take away their guns. Hyperbole and strawmanning have no place in discussion of this sort and you know better than this

Even if you accept that religious beliefs about women have no relationship to the historical context of religious female subjugation the mechanism being used is controlling women.

They're going "how can we stop abortion?". "Why don't we suspend women's right to autonomy over their own bodies?".

It's still subjugation.

Of course once you add in the rest of the religious views on women and their role in society/traditional family then suddenly the narrative starts building and you notice that rather than this being an exceptional imposition on female liberty in the emergency situation of a threatened fetus it's pretty much business as usual.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-27 22:50:42
August 27 2015 22:50 GMT
#44936
On August 28 2015 07:44 Chocolate wrote:
Why are you guys being this purposefully obtuse?

The perspective from the Republican (religious right) standpoint is that life (and thus the right to life) begins at conception. A bunch of old white men did not huddle together and say " What's the best way we can subjugate women today? Oh, I know, we'll make them carry their pregnancies to term!" Rather, a group of (mostly old, white) religious men and women decided that since humans have souls, any relatively independent human life must also have a soul, and that ending the life of anything with a soul is a horrible act.

I'm very much pro-choice but I was raised in an environment where most of my peers and adult figures were not. This is what they believed. For you to say this is about controlling women is ludicrous. For them, it's about protecting human life. Maybe there's a lot of faulty thinking involved in that process, but the principle makes sense from a religious perspective.

In my opinion you guys are no better than some country hicks raving about godless communist liberals trying to take away their guns. Hyperbole and strawmanning have no place in discussion of this sort and you know better than this


In your opinion, what's the difference between forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, and forcing a woman to donate an organ to a toddler in order to save its life?

People aren't arguing over whether a fetus counts as human life. They are arguing that it's irrelevant because you can't force someone to go through a dangerous and difficult medical condition/procedure that is likely to effect her for the rest of her life, even at the expense of another life.
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
August 27 2015 22:50 GMT
#44937
On August 28 2015 07:23 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 07:12 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is time for everyone on this page to go and read the mod note, then go to page one, and then stop violating rules 1-5. It has been going downhill for a long time in this thread, but debate is literally impossible now and it has become very very very frustrating to read + Show Spoiler +
"Don't read it then hurr durrr" - no, I'm interested in US politics, I want to follow discuss it, but the environment for that has been entirely destroyed


EDIT: Damn you CCstealthblue - everyone minus CCstealthblue.

well, I've made threads in website feedback pushing for higher moderation standards in this thread and in general discussion, but there has not been much interest, so I expect we're just too reasonable for most people


Well, I've been debating about making that post for weeks as I'm largely against backseat moderating and would much rather leave that stuff to the mods, but frankly they have been, and are, failing in this thread - despite the very nice start it had.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 27 2015 22:59 GMT
#44938
Yes, but in their effort to enforce their views on human life and abortion, they are demanding another person who has suffered sexual assault to go through an eminence, life altering process and give birth to another person. And while making this proposed law, they are offering no solution beyond the victim of sexual assault to care for the child or give up custody into the broken system that is US foster care.

So while they may view themselves as protecting human life, they are doing so by depriving another person of their rights, even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. There is a difference between believing that abortion is taking the life of a child and attempting to enforce your belief on others. When you start asking that the state enforce these views, even though the Supreme Court has ruled the state cannot do that, its just as waste of everyone's time.

And doesn't even start on all the health issues that would be created by illegal abortions if it was against the law. Or all the issues that happen in countries where it is illegal.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14047 Posts
August 27 2015 23:12 GMT
#44939
On August 28 2015 07:50 Ghostcom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2015 07:23 zlefin wrote:
On August 28 2015 07:12 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is time for everyone on this page to go and read the mod note, then go to page one, and then stop violating rules 1-5. It has been going downhill for a long time in this thread, but debate is literally impossible now and it has become very very very frustrating to read + Show Spoiler +
"Don't read it then hurr durrr" - no, I'm interested in US politics, I want to follow discuss it, but the environment for that has been entirely destroyed


EDIT: Damn you CCstealthblue - everyone minus CCstealthblue.

well, I've made threads in website feedback pushing for higher moderation standards in this thread and in general discussion, but there has not been much interest, so I expect we're just too reasonable for most people


Well, I've been debating about making that post for weeks as I'm largely against backseat moderating and would much rather leave that stuff to the mods, but frankly they have been, and are, failing in this thread - despite the very nice start it had.

Very nice start this thread had? Do you know how fucking long it took us to stop arguing about health care? Gh is a much more tame version of samisdat and johhny/daunt is tame compared to the people who got weeded out at the start.

My point has nothing to do with abortion. Replace the issue with any other issue and suddenly calling the other half of america (that doesn't agree with you) no better then ISIS is completely unacceptable. The whole issue is unarguable because its ruined from the beginning. People don't agree when life begins so one side believes its a balance between subjugation and murder while the other side thinks the first side just wants subjugation for the sake of subjugation. Basic differences in terms use makes the gun control debate look coherent.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 27 2015 23:19 GMT
#44940
Do you get this outraged every time Trump opens his mouth? He drops bombs that big like 3 times a week.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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