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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 24 2015 17:51 GMT
#42581
Ted Cruz is a blight on American politics and has zero respect for the office he holds. He is a self serving clown who has no use for anyone and does nothing but hold up governments attempts to do or fix anything.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
July 24 2015 17:54 GMT
#42582
On July 25 2015 02:11 always_winter wrote:
What constitutes a non-proliferation expert? I wonder if that comes on a business card.

A non-proliferation standpoint is an ideological standpoint. Enlisting labels as a source of discourse is entirely counterproductive. Non-proliferation is an ideology. It's simply yours.

Imagining the deal from a non-proliferation standpoint relies on a series of assumptions, the first of which is that Iran isn't within reach of a developmental breakthrough already. No one outside of Iran knows the current stage of the program; Iran could already be nuclear. It's only logical Iran would keep that hand close to the chest.

Another is the belief Iran's nuclear ambitions could possibly be limited to energy, an astronomically naïve insinuation which ironically exhibits an incredibly poor understanding of Middle Eastern politics and the incredibly complex dynamism between increasingly non-rational state actors. A child could understand the concept of non-proliferation; similarly a child could be persuaded to view the entire world order through a single lens. That's dangerous.


Experts smexperts, amirite?

Seriously though the condescension in your post doesn't stop the fact that most people who are not ideologically predisposed to opposing the deal think its good.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/14/its-a-damn-good-deal-iran-nuclear-agreement-joint-comprehensive-plan-of-action/
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17983 Posts
July 24 2015 18:24 GMT
#42583
On July 25 2015 02:11 always_winter wrote:
What constitutes a non-proliferation expert? I wonder if that comes on a business card.

A non-proliferation standpoint is an ideological standpoint. Enlisting labels as a source of discourse is entirely counterproductive. Non-proliferation is an ideology. It's simply yours.

Imagining the deal from a non-proliferation standpoint relies on a series of assumptions, the first of which is that Iran isn't within reach of a developmental breakthrough already. No one outside of Iran knows the current stage of the program; Iran could already be nuclear. It's only logical Iran would keep that hand close to the chest.

Another is the belief Iran's nuclear ambitions could possibly be limited to energy, an astronomically naïve insinuation which ironically exhibits an incredibly poor understanding of Middle Eastern politics and the incredibly complex dynamism between increasingly non-rational state actors. A child could understand the concept of non-proliferation; similarly a child could be persuaded to view the entire world order through a single lens. That's dangerous.


If you can't come up with a coherent counterargument, just dismiss people's credentials. Common internet argument tactic.

Here are the credentials for Jeffrey Lewis, and if you go up to "Experts" in general, you can find the credentials of other non-proliferation experts. And yes, I think they can probably put that on their business cards.
always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
July 24 2015 18:41 GMT
#42584
Non-proliferation expert is a title a think tank devised for one of its fellows. It's not a credential.

FP is a good source. It's full of intellectual opinion. Here's the next article down: hi

Here's an excerpt:
But we need to be clear about what we’re getting. In exchange for a nuclear weapon the Iranians don’t yet possess and may never develop, they get billions of dollars in sanctions relief; an “open-for-business” sign that’s worth even more; the pleasure of sticking it to Israel and Saudi Arabia; an administration in Washington so eager to get and preserve the deal that it shies away from confronting Iran’s regional ambitions; and the capacity to weaponize should they so choose. Iran isn’t 10 feet tall and has a bunch of regional allies that are pretty weak tea. But when it comes to the art of the deal, we’re not playing in Tehran’s league. On this one, we played linear checkers, and the mullahs played three-dimensional chess. I hope I’m wrong! But I worry that the future course of Iran’s role in the region will make that painfully clear.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 24 2015 18:44 GMT
#42585
And he links to a site with a paywall while also cherry picking a quote. Top tier argument here.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
July 24 2015 18:48 GMT
#42586
"They don't have a nuke yet so why should we make it harder for them to get a nuke?"
~ Some guy that always_winter likes, 2015
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
July 24 2015 18:51 GMT
#42587
I think you are seriously underestimating the destabilizing effect an Iranian nuke would have on the region. Just imagine what Israel would do to prevent it... they certainly wouldn't stop at sanctions alone, and there would be no way to stop Iran's nuclear program without a ground invasion. The US would be at serious risk of being drawn into such a conflict, with Russia probably financing the other side, and I'm sure we can all imagine where that might lead us...

Billions of dollars in sanctions relief seems like a small price to pay to avoid that situation.

always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
July 24 2015 19:04 GMT
#42588
Iran's been developing nuclear technology for decades. Whether they've achieved the technology to create an atomic bomb is unclear; what is clear is Iran would be hard-pressed to manifest that technology into something palpable while incapacitated under international sanctions. We haven't even broken into discussion about nuclear delivery.

And I don't think we will, nor do I think this debate will progress on any meaningful terms. Based on the caliber of recent posts, I think now is a good time to re-evaluate my Friday afternoon on this beautiful summer day. One love, y'all.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 24 2015 19:07 GMT
#42589
On July 25 2015 04:04 always_winter wrote:
Iran's been developing nuclear technology for decades. Whether they've achieved the technology to create an atomic bomb is unclear; what is clear is Iran would be hard-pressed to manifest that technology into something palpable while incapacitated under international sanctions. We haven't even broken into discussion about nuclear delivery.

And I don't think we will, nor do I think this debate will progress on any meaningful terms. Based on the caliber of recent posts, I think now is a good time to re-evaluate my Friday afternoon on this beautiful summer day. One love, y'all.


lol
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 24 2015 19:12 GMT
#42590
Fiat Chrysler has decided to recall about 1.4 million cars and trucks in the U.S. just days after two hackers detailed how they were able to take control of a Jeep Cherokee SUV over the Internet.

The company will update software to insulate the vehicles from being remotely controlled, and it said in a statement that hackers are committing a crime by manipulating vehicle without authorization.

The recall affects vehicles with 8.4-inch touchscreens including 2013 to 2015 Ram pickups and chassis cabs and Dodge Viper sports cars. Also covered are 2014 and 2015 Dodge Durango and Jeep Grand Cherokee and Cherokee SUVs, as well as the 2015 Chrysler 200 and 300, and the Dodge Charger and Challenger.

Fiat Chrysler says it also has taken security measures on its own vehicle network to prevent hacking. Those measures require no customer action and became effective on Thursday.

The recall covers about 1 million more vehicles than the company had originally believed were affected, all with a certain type of radio, the company statement said.

Fiat Chrysler says it knows of no incidents involving hacking of its vehicles except for the one unveiled this week. Initially the company didn't issue a recall, but said it would contact all affected customers about a software update.

The fix is a response to a recent article in Wired magazine about two Defense Department-funded hackers, Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek, who remotely took control of a Jeep Cherokee through its UConnect entertainment system. They were able to change the vehicle's speed and control the brakes, radio, windshield wipers, transmission and other features.

The hacking duo, however, had revealed some of these vulnerabilities in the 2015 Cadillac Escalade and 2014 Jeep Cherokee a year ago. Cadillac has yet to issue a recall.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21668 Posts
July 24 2015 19:13 GMT
#42591
On July 25 2015 04:07 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2015 04:04 always_winter wrote:
Iran's been developing nuclear technology for decades. Whether they've achieved the technology to create an atomic bomb is unclear; what is clear is Iran would be hard-pressed to manifest that technology into something palpable while incapacitated under international sanctions. We haven't even broken into discussion about nuclear delivery.

And I don't think we will, nor do I think this debate will progress on any meaningful terms. Based on the caliber of recent posts, I think now is a good time to re-evaluate my Friday afternoon on this beautiful summer day. One love, y'all.


lol

He is kind of right tho. It took them years to get to the point where they are now.
As someone said before. It doesn't matter that it takes 10 years under sanctions when they are currently in year 9.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 24 2015 19:14 GMT
#42592
On July 25 2015 04:04 always_winter wrote:
Iran's been developing nuclear technology for decades. Whether they've achieved the technology to create an atomic bomb is unclear; what is clear is Iran would be hard-pressed to manifest that technology into something palpable while incapacitated under international sanctions. We haven't even broken into discussion about nuclear delivery.

And I don't think we will, nor do I think this debate will progress on any meaningful terms. Based on the caliber of recent posts, I think now is a good time to re-evaluate my Friday afternoon on this beautiful summer day. One love, y'all.

It’s because you’re argument is bad and is centered on the idea that nothing will change because it hasn’t yet. Because Iran does not have nuke now, will not have nuke ever.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 24 2015 19:42 GMT
#42593
On July 25 2015 04:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2015 04:07 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 25 2015 04:04 always_winter wrote:
Iran's been developing nuclear technology for decades. Whether they've achieved the technology to create an atomic bomb is unclear; what is clear is Iran would be hard-pressed to manifest that technology into something palpable while incapacitated under international sanctions. We haven't even broken into discussion about nuclear delivery.

And I don't think we will, nor do I think this debate will progress on any meaningful terms. Based on the caliber of recent posts, I think now is a good time to re-evaluate my Friday afternoon on this beautiful summer day. One love, y'all.


lol

He is kind of right tho. It took them years to get to the point where they are now.
As someone said before. It doesn't matter that it takes 10 years under sanctions when they are currently in year 9.


It took Iran time to get a nuke because it takes time to develop the technology to get a nuke. International sanctions likely had close to zero effect on delaying their nuclear research. The only meaningful interventions that have impacted their development timeline were when Stuxnet wrecked some of their centrifuges and that time the Israelis assassinated one of their nuclear physicists.

Anyways, sanctions didn't stop North Korea, one of the most backwards and isolated regimes in the world from getting a nuke. If they can't do that, how the heck can they stop Iran, who is probably close to the BRICS nations in development from building a nuke? (Notably, Brazil is the only one of those without a nuke, I think South Africa might have some but I'm not sure). But Brazil is a turnkey state, if they wanted a nuke they could get one in a couple months (optimistically).
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
July 24 2015 20:56 GMT
#42594
On July 25 2015 04:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2015 04:13 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 25 2015 04:07 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 25 2015 04:04 always_winter wrote:
Iran's been developing nuclear technology for decades. Whether they've achieved the technology to create an atomic bomb is unclear; what is clear is Iran would be hard-pressed to manifest that technology into something palpable while incapacitated under international sanctions. We haven't even broken into discussion about nuclear delivery.

And I don't think we will, nor do I think this debate will progress on any meaningful terms. Based on the caliber of recent posts, I think now is a good time to re-evaluate my Friday afternoon on this beautiful summer day. One love, y'all.


lol

He is kind of right tho. It took them years to get to the point where they are now.
As someone said before. It doesn't matter that it takes 10 years under sanctions when they are currently in year 9.


It took Iran time to get a nuke because it takes time to develop the technology to get a nuke. International sanctions likely had close to zero effect on delaying their nuclear research. The only meaningful interventions that have impacted their development timeline were when Stuxnet wrecked some of their centrifuges and that time the Israelis assassinated one of their nuclear physicists.

Anyways, sanctions didn't stop North Korea, one of the most backwards and isolated regimes in the world from getting a nuke. If they can't do that, how the heck can they stop Iran, who is probably close to the BRICS nations in development from building a nuke? (Notably, Brazil is the only one of those without a nuke, I think South Africa might have some but I'm not sure). But Brazil is a turnkey state, if they wanted a nuke they could get one in a couple months (optimistically).

This is why I'd rather they have focused on the terrorist ties in negotiations. If they want nukes nothing can stop them long term, but cutting off the money from people actually nuts enough to use them is a big priority.
Freeeeeeedom
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
July 24 2015 23:13 GMT
#42595
On July 25 2015 05:56 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2015 04:42 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 25 2015 04:13 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 25 2015 04:07 ticklishmusic wrote:
On July 25 2015 04:04 always_winter wrote:
Iran's been developing nuclear technology for decades. Whether they've achieved the technology to create an atomic bomb is unclear; what is clear is Iran would be hard-pressed to manifest that technology into something palpable while incapacitated under international sanctions. We haven't even broken into discussion about nuclear delivery.

And I don't think we will, nor do I think this debate will progress on any meaningful terms. Based on the caliber of recent posts, I think now is a good time to re-evaluate my Friday afternoon on this beautiful summer day. One love, y'all.


lol

He is kind of right tho. It took them years to get to the point where they are now.
As someone said before. It doesn't matter that it takes 10 years under sanctions when they are currently in year 9.


It took Iran time to get a nuke because it takes time to develop the technology to get a nuke. International sanctions likely had close to zero effect on delaying their nuclear research. The only meaningful interventions that have impacted their development timeline were when Stuxnet wrecked some of their centrifuges and that time the Israelis assassinated one of their nuclear physicists.

Anyways, sanctions didn't stop North Korea, one of the most backwards and isolated regimes in the world from getting a nuke. If they can't do that, how the heck can they stop Iran, who is probably close to the BRICS nations in development from building a nuke? (Notably, Brazil is the only one of those without a nuke, I think South Africa might have some but I'm not sure). But Brazil is a turnkey state, if they wanted a nuke they could get one in a couple months (optimistically).

This is why I'd rather they have focused on the terrorist ties in negotiations. If they want nukes nothing can stop them long term, but cutting off the money from people actually nuts enough to use them is a big priority.


Well preventing them from developing a nuke is reasonably straightforward. How would we ensure they don't fund other groups? They were doing it under the toughest sanctions we could muster.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
July 25 2015 01:37 GMT
#42596
I think it's the peak of irony that the US, the only country on Earth to ever use a nuclear weapon on people, is going around saying other people are too irresponsible to have nuclear weapons. It's like a drunk driver manning a DUI checkpoint, or a pot-smoking DEA agent.
Who called in the fleet?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
July 25 2015 01:45 GMT
#42597
On July 25 2015 10:37 Millitron wrote:
I think it's the peak of irony that the US, the only country on Earth to ever use a nuclear weapon on people, is going around saying other people are too irresponsible to have nuclear weapons. It's like a drunk driver manning a DUI checkpoint, or a pot-smoking DEA agent.


That's probably not as uncommon as you may think it is. Welcome back to the thread btw.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 25 2015 01:49 GMT
#42598
I agree its ironic, but wouldn't say its the peak of irony; as the US didn't use nuclear weapons with particular irresponsibility.

winter -> I have to agree with Plansix. You also seem to often rely on unsound assumptions in your arguments.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-25 02:19:24
July 25 2015 02:17 GMT
#42599
On July 25 2015 10:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2015 10:37 Millitron wrote:
I think it's the peak of irony that the US, the only country on Earth to ever use a nuclear weapon on people, is going around saying other people are too irresponsible to have nuclear weapons. It's like a drunk driver manning a DUI checkpoint, or a pot-smoking DEA agent.


That's probably not as uncommon as you may think it is. Welcome back to the thread btw.

Thanks, though I'm sorry to say I don't think I'm going to stay long. I just felt so much better not being a part of all the bickering. I seriously recommend taking a break from it all, it's so soothing.

I just came back because I was curious about what current event was being discussed. Good to see it's a more substantive subject instead of all the identity politics.
Who called in the fleet?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
July 25 2015 02:31 GMT
#42600
On July 25 2015 11:17 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2015 10:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 25 2015 10:37 Millitron wrote:
I think it's the peak of irony that the US, the only country on Earth to ever use a nuclear weapon on people, is going around saying other people are too irresponsible to have nuclear weapons. It's like a drunk driver manning a DUI checkpoint, or a pot-smoking DEA agent.


That's probably not as uncommon as you may think it is. Welcome back to the thread btw.

Thanks, though I'm sorry to say I don't think I'm going to stay long. I just felt so much better not being a part of all the bickering. I seriously recommend taking a break from it all, it's so soothing.

I just came back because I was curious about what current event was being discussed. Good to see it's a more substantive subject instead of all the identity politics.


Yeah, I'm very engaged in campaigning and being a part of Bernie's grassroots movement, I'm just still at a stage where I'm in front of the computer a lot, so I still come by.

I imagine after the 29th I'll be in the field more and unable to stay engaged here. Though as elections near more and more low-information opinionated people will be showing up so it will likely be a good idea for me to be otherwise occupied.

Really looking forward to Trump's first debate though. Should be interesting to see how republicans/conservatives respond.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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