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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
July 15 2015 19:07 GMT
#42121
I have zero issues with making it fair and easier. What I do have a problem with is the opinion that anyone who wants to come should be allowed to. There are limits for a reason.
dude bro.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 19:09:13
July 15 2015 19:07 GMT
#42122
On July 16 2015 03:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2015 03:47 heliusx wrote:
I don't mean amnesty in the future. I mean after the border is secure.


Wouldn't making it easier for immigrants to obtain legalization/ documentation be a huge help to "securing our borders"?

That phrase seems to be a buzzphrase/ catchphrase for a ton of politicians who have no specific ideas on how to do it, anyway. (Unless you're Trump, in which you build you force the Mexicans to build a huge wall.)

Yes, because building walls to keep people out over thousands of miles was super successful throughout history.

I also hate the idea that we can’t do something until we fix something else. Like updating immigration and making work visas easier to obtain wouldn’t help with the border security issue.

On July 16 2015 04:07 heliusx wrote:
I have zero issues with making it fair and easier. What I do have a problem with is the opinion that anyone who wants to come should be allowed to. There are limits for a reason.


You seem to be arguing with the fictional people in your head, rather than us. No one has advocated for the things you are talking about or against the things you are requesting(with the exception of securing the border first)
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 19:17:36
July 15 2015 19:16 GMT
#42123
Plansix I'm not arguing anything with you. If I wanted to talk to a Wall my office has four. I was clarifying my position to dark, it's not easy on mobile.
dude bro.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44245 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 19:21:25
July 15 2015 19:17 GMT
#42124
On July 16 2015 04:07 heliusx wrote:
I have zero issues with making it fair and easier. What I do have a problem with is the opinion that anyone who wants to come should be allowed to. There are limits for a reason.


No one is saying there shouldn't be the appropriate protocols or background checks or whatever. You're making a slippery slope argument. Talking about immigration reform and working constructively and pragmatically to help eliminate the issue of illegal immigration doesn't necessarily spiral into "anyone who wants to come should be allowed to", without rules and regulations.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
July 15 2015 19:22 GMT
#42125
On July 16 2015 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2015 04:07 heliusx wrote:
I have zero issues with making it fair and easier. What I do have a problem with is the opinion that anyone who wants to come should be allowed to. There are limits for a reason.


No one is saying there shouldn't be the appropriate protocols or background checks or whatever. You're making a slippery slope argument.

You're misunderstanding but no big deal. I don't mean background checks, obviously legal immigrants get checked. I mean the amount of.people coming over.
dude bro.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 19:29:50
July 15 2015 19:28 GMT
#42126
On July 16 2015 04:22 heliusx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2015 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On July 16 2015 04:07 heliusx wrote:
I have zero issues with making it fair and easier. What I do have a problem with is the opinion that anyone who wants to come should be allowed to. There are limits for a reason.


No one is saying there shouldn't be the appropriate protocols or background checks or whatever. You're making a slippery slope argument.

You're misunderstanding but no big deal. I don't mean background checks, obviously legal immigrants get checked. I mean the amount of.people coming over.

People have literally zero idea what you are talking about because you do not articulate your points. You make one sentence replies with with no further details. No one is advocating for unlimited legal immigration. The current issue with the system is there is not enough legal immigration and the system is cumbersome and costly.

Plus the 12 million people here already.

Edit: Also, I am phone posting as well.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4742 Posts
July 15 2015 19:29 GMT
#42127
Amnesty first is not acceptable because security doesn't follow. That lesson was learned in the 80s. The Democrats like the status quo- if they can again get amnesty (and new voters) without securing the border (so that amnesty is needed again in the future), they'll take it.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44245 Posts
July 15 2015 19:30 GMT
#42128
On July 16 2015 04:22 heliusx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2015 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On July 16 2015 04:07 heliusx wrote:
I have zero issues with making it fair and easier. What I do have a problem with is the opinion that anyone who wants to come should be allowed to. There are limits for a reason.


No one is saying there shouldn't be the appropriate protocols or background checks or whatever. You're making a slippery slope argument.

You're misunderstanding but no big deal. I don't mean background checks, obviously legal immigrants get checked. I mean the amount of.people coming over.


As in, the number of illegal immigrants who would be allowed to become documented? I can't see the line "America has 320 million people and can't afford to risk its success by allowing 11 million illegal immigrants to enter legally" as anything but laughable... that's roughly the American population and that's how many illegal immigrants we have. And why should it matter at all, as long as these newly legalized immigrants work and contribute to society (although it's not like all currently legal Americans do anyway...).
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 19:39:22
July 15 2015 19:37 GMT
#42129
I stated earlier...

1. Secure the border
2. Amnesty illegals who are not criminals
3. Enforce the immigration quotas

Also dark what state do you reside in?

and yes as introvert said(a guy I disagree with on almost everything) the order is important.
dude bro.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44245 Posts
July 15 2015 19:39 GMT
#42130
I live in New Jersey, why?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
July 15 2015 19:41 GMT
#42131
I was just curious how isolated you are from the border states.
dude bro.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44245 Posts
July 15 2015 19:46 GMT
#42132
Just because I don't live in a state that borders Mexico doesn't mean I can't do research on the topic And that's why I asked the question in the first place- because I'm not an expert on the topic. I like to learn.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
July 15 2015 19:49 GMT
#42133
In fact, proximity to the border is just as big a reason to disregard someone's perspective as it is one to give it credit. That's how jerbs get terken.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 19:52:12
July 15 2015 19:51 GMT
#42134
I was just curious, not many Mexicans where I am either. Didn't mean to insinuate you're ignorant on the subject.
dude bro.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44245 Posts
July 15 2015 19:56 GMT
#42135
On July 16 2015 04:51 heliusx wrote:
I was just curious, not many Mexicans where I am either. Didn't mean to insinuate you're ignorant on the subject.


Well one of my jobs has me working in Newark, specifically at NJIT, which has a very high Hispanic population But yeah, no worries.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
whatisthisasheep
Profile Joined April 2015
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 20:41:05
July 15 2015 20:23 GMT
#42136
Trump is causing Fox News too slowly implode. First Rupert Murdoch denounces Trumps comments, now Fox's top news anchors are threatening to knock each other out on live TV.


Trump just released his financial disclosure.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/15/1402561/-Donald-Trump-files-financial-disclosure-says-he-is-worth-TEN-BILLION-DOLLARS

For Immediate Release:

(New York, NY) July 15, 2015 - Today, Donald J. Trump filed his Personal Financial Disclosure (PFD) forms with the Federal Election Commission (FEC).

This report was not designed for a man of Mr. Trump's massive wealth. For instance, they have boxes once a certain number is reached that simply state $50 million or more. Many of these boxes have been checked. As an example, if a building owned by Mr. Trump is worth $1.5 billion, the box checked is "$50,000,000 or more."

Mr. Trump stated, "First people said I would never run, and I did. Then, they said, I would never file my statement of candidacy with the FEC, and I did. Next, they said I would never file my personal financial disclosure forms. I filed them early despite the fact that I am allowed two 45 days extensions. Now I have surged in the polls and am fighting to Make America Great Again. I look forward to the challenge of winning the presidency and doing a fantastic job for our country. I will make the United States rich and strong and respected again, but also a country with a 'big heart' toward the care of our people."

Mr. Trump's net worth has increased since the more than one year old financial statement produced at his presidential announcement. Real estate values in New York City, San Francisco, Miami and many other places where he owns property have gone up considerably during this period of time. His debt is a very small percentage of value, and at very low interest rates. As of this date, Mr. Trump's net worth is in excess of TEN BILLION DOLLARS.
Please help me get in contact with the Pats organization because I'd love to personally deflate Tom's balls.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-15 20:32:51
July 15 2015 20:29 GMT
#42137
On July 16 2015 01:14 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2015 22:03 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 15 2015 21:58 Sermokala wrote:
Wow you really are a joke of the minimum wage movement. You're against training people skills so they get out of minimum wage jobs because you think burger flipping is so vital to our economy that people should be able to live off it?

You can't bash reps for being obtuse when you're wearing ideology blinders like that.

The iran deal is pretty bad compared to say cold war deals but the enemy in this case is on a hard clock and we're not. So any deal is good.

Thats not what he said at all.
He said that there will always be someone working those burger flipping jobs and that person should not need government assistance to live.
Ofcourse people should be able to get education but that doesn't mean those jobs stop existing.

But the point of those jobs isn't and shouldn't be enough to support a family. They don't produce anything or contribute to the economy in any meaningful way. He bashed scotty (I don't support the guy) because he suggested that the government should be concentrating on training people into new skill positions instead of raising the minimum wage into something people could live off of.

The problem with the $15 minimum wage is that it'll eliminate manufacturing jobs and other non service industry jobs that actually contribute to something instead of filling people into a proverty cycle where low level service jobs are all they end up having.


Are you fucking serious? This is some of the most insulting, condescending stuff I've heard coming from someone on these boards, and that's saying something.

The idea that "these jobs shouldn't be enough to support a family" is utterly ridiculous and screams of privileged ignorance. The reality is that the majority of people aren't intelligent enough or just aren't in a position to "get an education". Society needs workers that only have a high school education, and shouldn't stigmatize this as "settling" or somehow being lesser than having an education and a job correlating to it. The idea that they don't contribute to the economy is a joke; many of the essential services that make your life enjoyable are done by someone without an advanced education that's getting paid crap.

"These jobs aren't for supporting families" is utter bullshit. There will always be people to work these jobs because they will always be necessary. They shouldn't be resigned to a life of crushing poverty for it. "Everyone should get an education" is an ignorant pipe dream that isn't even remotely feasible due to the fact that there aren't enough jobs to hire everyone if they were all "educated". This is why you have a huge unemployment rate for college graduates right now, and many of them that are working are working jobs that only require a high school education.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
July 15 2015 20:58 GMT
#42138
On July 16 2015 05:29 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2015 01:14 Sermokala wrote:
On July 15 2015 22:03 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 15 2015 21:58 Sermokala wrote:
Wow you really are a joke of the minimum wage movement. You're against training people skills so they get out of minimum wage jobs because you think burger flipping is so vital to our economy that people should be able to live off it?

You can't bash reps for being obtuse when you're wearing ideology blinders like that.

The iran deal is pretty bad compared to say cold war deals but the enemy in this case is on a hard clock and we're not. So any deal is good.

Thats not what he said at all.
He said that there will always be someone working those burger flipping jobs and that person should not need government assistance to live.
Ofcourse people should be able to get education but that doesn't mean those jobs stop existing.

But the point of those jobs isn't and shouldn't be enough to support a family. They don't produce anything or contribute to the economy in any meaningful way. He bashed scotty (I don't support the guy) because he suggested that the government should be concentrating on training people into new skill positions instead of raising the minimum wage into something people could live off of.

The problem with the $15 minimum wage is that it'll eliminate manufacturing jobs and other non service industry jobs that actually contribute to something instead of filling people into a proverty cycle where low level service jobs are all they end up having.


Are you fucking serious? This is some of the most insulting, condescending stuff I've heard coming from someone on these boards, and that's saying something.

The idea that "these jobs shouldn't be enough to support a family" is utterly ridiculous and screams of privileged ignorance. The reality is that the majority of people aren't intelligent enough or just aren't in a position to "get an education". Society needs workers that only have a high school education, and shouldn't stigmatize this as "settling" or somehow being lesser than having an education and a job correlating to it. The idea that they don't contribute to the economy is a joke; many of the essential services that make your life enjoyable are done by someone without an advanced education that's getting paid crap.

"These jobs aren't for supporting families" is utter bullshit. There will always be people to work these jobs because they will always be necessary. They shouldn't be resigned to a life of crushing poverty for it. "Everyone should get an education" is an ignorant pipe dream that isn't even remotely feasible due to the fact that there aren't enough jobs to hire everyone if they were all "educated". This is why you have a huge unemployment rate for college graduates right now, and many of them that are working are working jobs that only require a high school education.


I think, in Sermakola's POV (Serma, correct me if I'm wrong) and also some other's POV, minimum wage jobs such as fast food workers are for people to work in part time or during college years etc, as a means of getting money to fund their higher education. Therefore there will always be people in place to work in these jobs - and they will transition out to a better job in time for the next group of people that need those jobs. This is specifically the bottom rung of jobs in a ladder of occupations.
Yargh
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
July 15 2015 21:02 GMT
#42139
On July 16 2015 05:29 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2015 01:14 Sermokala wrote:
On July 15 2015 22:03 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 15 2015 21:58 Sermokala wrote:
Wow you really are a joke of the minimum wage movement. You're against training people skills so they get out of minimum wage jobs because you think burger flipping is so vital to our economy that people should be able to live off it?

You can't bash reps for being obtuse when you're wearing ideology blinders like that.

The iran deal is pretty bad compared to say cold war deals but the enemy in this case is on a hard clock and we're not. So any deal is good.

Thats not what he said at all.
He said that there will always be someone working those burger flipping jobs and that person should not need government assistance to live.
Ofcourse people should be able to get education but that doesn't mean those jobs stop existing.

But the point of those jobs isn't and shouldn't be enough to support a family. They don't produce anything or contribute to the economy in any meaningful way. He bashed scotty (I don't support the guy) because he suggested that the government should be concentrating on training people into new skill positions instead of raising the minimum wage into something people could live off of.

The problem with the $15 minimum wage is that it'll eliminate manufacturing jobs and other non service industry jobs that actually contribute to something instead of filling people into a proverty cycle where low level service jobs are all they end up having.


Are you fucking serious? This is some of the most insulting, condescending stuff I've heard coming from someone on these boards, and that's saying something.

The idea that "these jobs shouldn't be enough to support a family" is utterly ridiculous and screams of privileged ignorance. The reality is that the majority of people aren't intelligent enough or just aren't in a position to "get an education". Society needs workers that only have a high school education, and shouldn't stigmatize this as "settling" or somehow being lesser than having an education and a job correlating to it. The idea that they don't contribute to the economy is a joke; many of the essential services that make your life enjoyable are done by someone without an advanced education that's getting paid crap.

"These jobs aren't for supporting families" is utter bullshit. There will always be people to work these jobs because they will always be necessary. They shouldn't be resigned to a life of crushing poverty for it. "Everyone should get an education" is an ignorant pipe dream that isn't even remotely feasible due to the fact that there aren't enough jobs to hire everyone if they were all "educated". This is why you have a huge unemployment rate for college graduates right now, and many of them that are working are working jobs that only require a high school education.


That's fine just don't make minimum wage Federal, leave it to the states as all regions face different economic realities. They all have different costs of living and some regions have very large economic distortions that shouldn't be a factor for others.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17975 Posts
July 15 2015 21:09 GMT
#42140
On July 16 2015 05:58 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2015 05:29 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On July 16 2015 01:14 Sermokala wrote:
On July 15 2015 22:03 Gorsameth wrote:
On July 15 2015 21:58 Sermokala wrote:
Wow you really are a joke of the minimum wage movement. You're against training people skills so they get out of minimum wage jobs because you think burger flipping is so vital to our economy that people should be able to live off it?

You can't bash reps for being obtuse when you're wearing ideology blinders like that.

The iran deal is pretty bad compared to say cold war deals but the enemy in this case is on a hard clock and we're not. So any deal is good.

Thats not what he said at all.
He said that there will always be someone working those burger flipping jobs and that person should not need government assistance to live.
Ofcourse people should be able to get education but that doesn't mean those jobs stop existing.

But the point of those jobs isn't and shouldn't be enough to support a family. They don't produce anything or contribute to the economy in any meaningful way. He bashed scotty (I don't support the guy) because he suggested that the government should be concentrating on training people into new skill positions instead of raising the minimum wage into something people could live off of.

The problem with the $15 minimum wage is that it'll eliminate manufacturing jobs and other non service industry jobs that actually contribute to something instead of filling people into a proverty cycle where low level service jobs are all they end up having.


Are you fucking serious? This is some of the most insulting, condescending stuff I've heard coming from someone on these boards, and that's saying something.

The idea that "these jobs shouldn't be enough to support a family" is utterly ridiculous and screams of privileged ignorance. The reality is that the majority of people aren't intelligent enough or just aren't in a position to "get an education". Society needs workers that only have a high school education, and shouldn't stigmatize this as "settling" or somehow being lesser than having an education and a job correlating to it. The idea that they don't contribute to the economy is a joke; many of the essential services that make your life enjoyable are done by someone without an advanced education that's getting paid crap.

"These jobs aren't for supporting families" is utter bullshit. There will always be people to work these jobs because they will always be necessary. They shouldn't be resigned to a life of crushing poverty for it. "Everyone should get an education" is an ignorant pipe dream that isn't even remotely feasible due to the fact that there aren't enough jobs to hire everyone if they were all "educated". This is why you have a huge unemployment rate for college graduates right now, and many of them that are working are working jobs that only require a high school education.


I think, in Sermakola's POV (Serma, correct me if I'm wrong) and also some other's POV, minimum wage jobs such as fast food workers are for people to work in part time or during college years etc, as a means of getting money to fund their higher education. Therefore there will always be people in place to work in these jobs - and they will transition out to a better job in time for the next group of people that need those jobs. This is specifically the bottom rung of jobs in a ladder of occupations.

Fine. Take burger flippers out of the equation. How about trash collectors? Fruit pickers (and other farmhands)? Most factory workers? People working in warehouses? Convenience stores? The list goes on.. and on.. and on.. with jobs that require little to no education and pay shit salaries. And most of those jobs aren´t meant for college kids as a stop-gap while they move on to better things. They are full-time jobs (or more than full-time) that are done, and should be done, by adults.

And Sermo is free to go live in some distopia of his own where his fruit doesn´t get picked and his trash isn´t collected, because these jobs "don´t add any value to the economy".
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