EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2047
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
Main points: 1) as a protection measure, guns aren't very useful 2) decreasing their accessibility will make it harder for criminals and lunatics to get their hands on them by driving their price up on the black market 3) "fuck you don't take my guns!" Is a bad argument, because at one time there were people who said "fuck you don't take my slaves!". By definition an amendment, our Constitution can be changed. I think it's time, fellas. We can't keep having shit like this go down. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 19 2015 11:50 wei2coolman wrote: I think it'd be impossible in such a short period of time. Gun culture and hobby is ingrained in the culture, too much history for it to just be removed. But it can! You don't think that slavery was once thought of the same way? Too ingrained in the culture to ever be phased out? Change can happen | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22307 Posts
On June 19 2015 20:55 Aveng3r wrote: But it can! You don't think that slavery was once thought of the same way? Too ingrained in the culture to ever be phased out? Change can happen Don't forget it took a civil war to end slavery. That's one hell of a cost, I'm not saying it wasn't worth it but it is an example of just how hard it can be to change something that is deeply ingrained in society. Equal rights for blacks isn't even really a thing yet and that's a lot less controversial. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23928 Posts
On June 19 2015 20:55 Aveng3r wrote: But it can! You don't think that slavery was once thought of the same way? Too ingrained in the culture to ever be phased out? Change can happen Yeah, I'll pass on another civil war, please and thank you. It's not worth it. Going to be hard enough not to set one off if/when republicans lose another presidential election. Last thing anyone one needs is to add any more gun paranoia into the mix. Guns are a fight for another day, sad as it is, it's just not happening any time soon. Let a republican propose something like that mandatory public service and opportunity for training and license that way and even pay states that come up with effective strategies to lower gun related deaths without infringing. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10142 Posts
On June 19 2015 20:55 Aveng3r wrote: But it can! You don't think that slavery was once thought of the same way? Too ingrained in the culture to ever be phased out? Change can happen That involve a civil war, didn't it ? | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On June 19 2015 21:20 Aveng3r wrote: Fair point but I have faith that it could be done without another civil war Whatever group that would be responsible for going door to door would suffer huge casualties. Also the sale of shovels would skyrocket! Lots of buried guns and shootouts is my guess. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Yes, and we killed so many of our own people that other nations stood in awe and shock. Personal gun ownership isn't the problem in America as much as the gun industry cranking them out and lobbying to neuter law enforcement's ability to regulate them. The fire arms manufactures are making money while hiding behind gun owners that just want to own a couple of fire arms. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/02/nra_s_new_legal_strategy_for_killing_guns_laws_pennsylvania_s_act_192_is.html Its the ongoing issue with gun control in the US. People focus on personal ownership of fire arms, but a lot of the lobbying it to make sure there are as many guns sales as possible. Hence all the guns sales to Mexico and along the border, all of which are assault weapons. On June 19 2015 21:28 heliusx wrote: Whatever group that would be responsible for going door to door would suffer huge casualties. Also the sale of shovels would skyrocket! Lots of buried guns and shootouts is my guess. The idea of taking fire arms as the solution is part of the problem. The majority of crimes are committed with illegally obtained fire arms. The problem is that the abilities of law enforcement to track down and police fire arms that are no longer owned legally is hampered by groups like the NRA. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4751 Posts
Just check for guns while doing other police investigations, ban gun sale that doesnt meet government requirments, tax/fine people who violate gun laws. Make them surrender guns voluntary instead of taking them by force. You want to burry guns in Your backyard? Be my guest its better they stay underground and if You unbury them better not get caught. Thats a felony You see, nobody will hire a felon You will not be eligable for government programs and shit. You might lose Your kids. You will be a loser, nobody likes losers. And every few years make a call for surrendering hidden guns without punishment or even with some monetary reward. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 19 2015 21:46 Silvanel wrote: If we are to enter fantasy realm thats not how i would implament gun ban. No door to door checking, that would anger everyone and would be insanely time and resource consuming. Just check for guns while doing other police investigations, ban gun sale that doesnt meet government requirments, tax/fine people who violate gun laws. Make them surrender guns voluntary instead of taking them by force. You want to burry guns in Your backyard? Be my guest its better they stay underground and if You unbury them better not get caught. Thats a felony You see, nobody will hire a felon You will not be eligable for government programs and shit. You might lose Your kids. You will be a loser, nobody likes losers. And every few years make a call for surrendering hidden guns without punishment or even with some monetary reward. Yeah if we are being hypothetical then I agree with you, door to door crap would be a bad idea and I think you would have to make it a voluntary process in form. In substance you could pretty much make it mandatory by imposing fines or taxes and whatnot | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45763 Posts
On June 19 2015 18:16 Danglars wrote: Obama's on about America's mass murders, after Hebdo. Marketplace favoring Jews assaulted, 11 dead 11 injured. But France is an advanced country, as Obama says? Breivik anyone? School shootings, I think Germany's leading on that one .. Erfut & Winniden. But when you qualify frequency and depending on how you define advanced, I suppose Obama's got some technical basis. What do you mean "qualify frequency"? It's frequency... it's a quantity, a number of school shootings. No need to qualify anything- a school shooting is self-explanatory. There was actually a really good link posted a few pages back that showed that the United States had about 3 times as many school shootings as the rest of the first world countries combined, so Germany's not even really in the conversation. Here it is: http://www.mibazaar.com/schoolshootings/ From 1996-2012, 59 out of 78 school shootings worldwide were in the USA. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45763 Posts
On June 19 2015 21:50 lastpuritan wrote: Just stop manufacturing projectiles, ammos etc. And do not import them. Thats another optional way to deal with the problem, before door to door checking. The right to have a gun, but not the right to have a bullet? I like your semantics  | ||
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Simberto
Germany11818 Posts
Looking at that map posted earlier, there were quite a few more dots in Germany than in any other country that is not the US. Basically, at this point, the US is just such a large statistical outlier in this regard that i think a lot of people just look at the data for other countries instead, because the US just simply does not work and it does not help to compare yourself to the worst case in the world when trying to change things. On June 19 2015 18:16 Danglars wrote: Obama's on about America's mass murders, after Hebdo. Marketplace favoring Jews assaulted, 11 dead 11 injured. But France is an advanced country, as Obama says? Breivik anyone? School shootings, I think Germany's leading on that one .. Erfut & Winniden. But when you qualify frequency and depending on how you define advanced, I suppose Obama's got some technical basis. Topic prompts all this discussion on gun control (Never let a good crisis go to waste!), and unluckily SC is one of the strictest in the nation, up there with my state of California. Open carry banned, permits required with simple passage of background check, state-approved course, fingerprints, live fire, and a written test. Bad luck, gun control advocates. I love how this reaction was predicted a few pages ago, and everyone was going "Nah, no one would use such a silly semantic argument, it is so obviously flawed, Obama didn't need to use the "more than elsewhere" qualifier in his sentence" | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 19 2015 22:00 Simberto wrote: I think it might be possible that Germany is leading in school shootings outside of the US. Looking at that map posted earlier, there were quite a few more dots in Germany than in any other country that is not the US. Basically, at this point, the US is just such a large statistical outlier in this regard that i think a lot of people just look at the data for other countries instead, because the US just simply does not work and it does not help to compare yourself to the worst case in the world when trying to change things. I love how this reaction was predicted a few pages ago, and everyone was going "Nah, no one would use such a silly semantic argument, it is so obviously flawed, Obama didn't need to use the "more than elsewhere" qualifier in his sentence" What are you talking about? Literally what are you talking about? You said nothing in that post | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45763 Posts
On June 19 2015 22:07 Aveng3r wrote: What are you talking about? Literally what are you talking about? You said nothing in that post I think he said that Germany might be in 2nd place when it comes to school shootings... although a really, really distant 2nd place. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
On June 19 2015 19:50 GreenHorizons wrote: If the emotional argument worked, Newtown would of done it. There's common sense reforms like background checks that most people support but still can't get passed which means whenever something finally does get done on guns it will be overkill because people fought the reasonable stuff for so long. But yeah, it not being so casually acceptable to be so racist probably would of been more helpful than any gun law, maybe if his father had some liability for basically aiding in a terrorist attack? (provided the uncle is telling the truth and the gun used was given to him by his father). Who was casually acceptable to him? There's not been much that came out about that. The most we know is that his uncle thought he was a monster for what he did but never thought he'd do that. His dad bought him a gun as a present (after he got picked up for some dumb crime - duh). There was one friend who reconnected with him and said the kid was stupid and racist and he stopped talking to him shortly after. I mean, I'm not seeing who was casually acceptable to him besides maybe the father (and it's not known if he knew his kid was plotting a racist terrorist attack). Implying that the people in his life are somehow responsible for this simply by association is a dumb game unless they knew what he was planning. And certainly, charigng the father if the gun was legally obtained is stupid, probably illegal, and would give people who already fear the governemnet is illegally coming for their guns all the ammo they need. On June 19 2015 14:50 OuchyDathurts wrote: Taxation doesn't automatically move cigarettes to the black market. You can tax them pretty heavily without creating a big black market. It's when you tax the ever loving shit out of them you create the need for a black market, the cost is so obscene there's a demand for it and it's actually worth it. If you don't go full retard on the bit you can dissuade some people from buying because its too expensive while not being worth it to involve criminal enterprise. At ~$7 for a pack people feel it and they might quit or switch to vaping because they can't justify the spending but a black market isn't happening. At $14 a pack it's time to start selling some black market cigarettes boys! Taxation can be used to decrease usage without moving anything to the criminal underground if done properly. There is already a not insignificant black market for cigs. NYC taxes the bejesus out of them. There are people who travel to PA or places where it is much cheaper, buy in bulk, and then sell on the streets. This is not uncommon at all. Shit, if you know anyone who smokes and has friends, they've probably bought a bunch for buddies when they went out of state to skirt the taxes. Stuff needs to obviously change with legal gun regulation in several ways. But there is also a massive demand for unregistered guns. This black market already exists. People who intend to do a crime typically don't use a gun registered in their name. If you know someone who can sell you weed they've got someone in their connection pipeline that can get you a gun. That's how ubiquitous they are. Regulation of legally registered weapons needs to be absolutely beefed up. But all the regulation in the world isn't going to remove illegal, unregistered weapons that are already out there. A majority of the crimes are committed with that. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11818 Posts
On June 19 2015 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think he said that Germany might be in 2nd place when it comes to school shootings... although a really, really distant 2nd place. Exactly. I don't think my statement was that hard to understand. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32132 Posts
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