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On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
"Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept.
You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias?
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On May 14 2015 07:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept. You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias?
Because privilege denotes the benefits of being on the good side of patterns of bias. For one reason.
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On May 14 2015 07:06 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
"Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate. Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever.
HR usually is heavily involved with pay setting and hiring / firing decisions.
Usually the payroll department is responsible for... payroll.
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On May 14 2015 07:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:06 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate. Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever. HR usually is heavily involved with pay setting and hiring / firing decisions. Usually the payroll department is responsible for... payroll.
But do you have statistics to support your assertion?
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On May 14 2015 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept. You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias? Because privilege denotes the benefits of being on the good side of patterns of bias. For one reason.
It's also an ambiguous term that lazy SJWs and feminists can use at will, with no objective fact-checking required.
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On May 14 2015 06:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:31 Wolfstan wrote:On May 14 2015 06:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:56 Wolfstan wrote:
I agree, being straight, white, black, male and Canadian has really made life a pleasure to experience. I am glad for the privilege to be me. (:
Is that all I have to do for SJWs? That was easy enough.
Pretty much, yeah. That's really all you, or I for that matter, can contribute to the conversation when people are talking about difficulties they experience as being part of a marginalized group. I can't possibly understand what it's like, all I can really do is try to avoid propagating it in my daily life and when I become a project manager or get put in a position of leadership, to not let prejudice or bias prevent me from assembling the best team and producing the best product, and to also let people know when I think they are letting their prejudices or biases affect their judgment. Well that's not too bad or hard at all. As long as I can be part of my demographic, debate from the perspective of my demographic and vote in the interests of my demographic without someone asking me to empathize and imagine I was born in a different situation. For example, its illogical to attend a rally at my local police precinct if they had never done anything but show me respect and provide great service because of something happening somewhere else. If the police tortured someone, they don't have to be your family or look/talk/act like you for you to empathize or attend a rally. As with any rally people show up for all sorts of causes, if you let strange people with strange causes stop you from showing up to any rally you'd never go to one, no matter how righteous it's purpose. It should be easy to get behind opposition to police disregarding peoples rights. People shouldn't get distracted by the parts of the arguments they don't like and let them become apathetic to the issue at large.
If police tortured someone, they would look at the specific case, be fired and arrested. Looking at specific cases and waiting for the results is not what I'm seeing down there. It's also where a lot of the victim character assassination happens. Again, you have much better arguments when you mention constitutional rights are being violated with a better chance of change then when you/rallies play the race card. Because then you are having people join the debate from their own perspective and protesting for their own interests.
You really hurt your case when you tell folks that they can't possibly understand your experience while demanding that they support changing your experience.
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United States42695 Posts
On May 14 2015 07:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
You don't know anything about me.
But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept. You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias? Because privilege denotes the benefits of being on the good side of patterns of bias. For one reason. It's also an ambiguous term that lazy SJWs and feminists can use at will, with no objective fact-checking required.
I don't feel it's ambiguous in the slightest. It wasn't a concept that I came up with, I had the concept explained to me and at no point did I feel like I needed to tell them that they were using the wrong word for their concept. But there again I don't have an overpowering need to rename other peoples' things and tell them I'm correcting them when I do it.
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On May 14 2015 07:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
You don't know anything about me.
But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept. You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias? Because privilege denotes the benefits of being on the good side of patterns of bias. For one reason. It's also an ambiguous term that lazy SJWs and feminists can use at will, with no objective fact-checking required.
Lots of words have lots of uses and users. Just because some people use "Muslim" to describe a Sheik doesn't really mean shit, other than they are being dumb.
Privilege or "patterns of bias" if you prefer are real and have real world consequences. We are going to need to start collecting a lot more statistics on a lot more things if that's the primary requirement for agreeing on reality. That statistics don't exist or are hard to come by doesn't by itself disprove the idea.
As you seem staunchly attached to your idea on women being in control of setting women's pay but don't have statistics that prove that, it seems you only require specific statistics to refute your beliefs but not always to confirm them.
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Kwark -> you probably had the term explained to you by reasonable people. Was it explained to you online?
I ask because online, the reasonable majority tend to not talk as much, and the unreasonable/crazy/extreme is much more vocal, and more noticed when they talk. The issue in practice is that that extreme group tends to misuse the term; and due to their being vocal and extreme, get noticed and remembered.
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On May 14 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:06 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate. Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever. HR usually is heavily involved with pay setting and hiring / firing decisions. Usually the payroll department is responsible for... payroll. But do you have statistics to support your assertion?
The HR Function: Traditional Vs. Today
Every company – regardless of size, location or purpose – must deal with HR issues in a way that's best suited to its needs and situation. If you own a small business, you probably function as your own HR manager – that is, you personally oversee and conduct each classic HR function for your company: You recruit and hire, you set up compensation and benefits packages, and you write paychecks and keep appropriate records.
The chances are good, too, that you're the person responsible for training and developing the people you hire. And although you may not need to publish a company newsletter to inform staff about what's going on in the company, you probably make a point to keep them in the loop.
Larger companies have entire HR departments and typically employ specialists in areas such as benefits administration or 401(k) retirement plans. But smaller business owners who don't have the resources for such specialization must ensure that they are solid generalists – that is, they possess skills in several areas of the human resources function rather than one particular specialty.
The HR function, in general, has undergone enormous changes in the past 20 years. Some companies still take a highly structured, largely centralized approach to HR management. The majority of companies today, however, take a far more decentralized approach, with HR practitioners and line managers working cooperatively to develop and implement policies and programs.
Link
Good enough?
Edit: second source: + Show Spoiler +Compensation and Benefits Like employee and labor relations, the compensation and benefits functions of HR often can be handled by one HR specialist with dual expertise. On the compensation side, the HR functions include setting compensation structures and evaluating competitive pay practices. A comp and benefits specialist also may negotiate group health coverage rates with insurers and coordinate activities with the retirement savings fund administrator. Payroll can be a component of the compensation and benefits section of HR; however, in many cases, employers outsource such administrative functions as payroll. http://smallbusiness.chron.com/six-main-functions-human-resource-department-60693.html
third source: + Show Spoiler +Employee Compensation Benefits: This covers salaries, bonuses, vacation pay, sick leave pay, Workers' Compensation, and insurance policies such as medical, dental, life, and 401k. The Human Resources Department is responsible for developing and administering a benefits compensation system that serves as an incentive to ensure the recruitment and retainment of top talent that will stay on with the company. When an employee is hired, the company's Benefits Coordinator is required to meet with employees one-on-one or in small group settings to explain their benefits package. This often requires an employee to make an informed decision and to provide their signature for processing purposes http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/12514/careers_and_job_hunting/how_hr_works_to_get_the_job_done.html
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On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace?
[Citation needed] You don't get to throw out stats without proof.
2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
Translation: "Evidence? Pft, my own personal experience trumps EVERYTHING ELSE!"
Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
That's a nice diversion away from the topic, lol.
Profiling of any nature is bad. Everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt, and not be assumed to be criminals.
Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
Custody isn't my point. In fact, I'm led to believe that front is actually getting much more fair in recent years, which is a good thing.
My point is women get to choose to keep the baby or not as soon as their pregnant, and men just have to deal with whatever their answer is. If men want a baby and women don't -> too bad. If women want the baby and men don't -> too bad.
While it's biological, men being stronger than women is biological as well, yet we as a society go out of our way to negate that difference. We don't have to force women to do anything, but men should still have a way to get their own opinion in.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
Really? I haven't seen such programs.
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
You realize your comment on 6 barely supports 7 and has nothing at all to do with 8, right?
Yes, children should obviously come first, lol.
On May 14 2015 07:04 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:42 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
"Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem. - Your personal experience does not represent the situation of the country - If that really is the case then report them, because it's illegal -Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers.
-Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around.
-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. 1) Personal experience, but if you must have a source, here's literally the first result on google to "Are women more trusted than men" : LinkI'm sure you can find more sources quite quickly to support the claim. 2) No, but society does. I've heard many stories of men being accused of being pedophiles with their children, while I've yet to hear one about women. Men are viewed as predators, while women are not. Just look at any case where an adult man slept with an under 18 girl vs an adult woman slept with an under 18 boy to see the differences. 3) It's still unfair, and not niche at all. Having no choice in keeping a child or not literally affects all men who have sex. 4) It's still unfair, lol. Being able to justify a difference in treatment doesn't mean there isn't a difference in treatment. 5) Programs to put forward women. The kinds you see in schools/the workforce, where women are promoted/encouraged to do things simply because they're women. Such programs don't exist for men. There's not a single company that has a minimum amount of men they need to hire, but minimum hires for women can be found in droves. 6) By society. Women are never shamed for showing their feelings, lol. No one looks at a crying woman and thinks to themselves "wow what a pussy, stop crying". 7) You're basing this lack of a stigma on...? Besides, it's not just nurses. Anything in childcare is almost taboo for men to join. Where's your evidence to support women have trouble getting hired in certain sectors (oh wait, this is just more of your personal experience, isn't it?) 8) Really? Because that seems to be a tradition women are very reluctant to give up. Not that I can blame them, no one wants to have to be on the side to do the asking. Sure that anecdote is my personal experience, but I'm also not the only person experiencing it. Ballin did a much better job than I explaining the wage gap. 1) If I'm not allowed to use personal experience, neither are you. "More trusted" than men is so broad and vague I won't even try to refute this one. More trusted to do what? 2) You've heard many stories. So again personal experiences, which are apparently not allowed. Your example about statutory rape loops back rather nicely to the slut shaming double standard. There is no reason to treat statutory rape of a boy by a woman any differently than statutory rape of a girl by a man. That double-standard is slowly changing. 3) Yeah, it totally is a niche problem. I don't consider a situation where a man and woman have unprotected sex, without discussing children, get pregnant, and then the woman wants the child but the man doesn't (or vice versa) to be a common problem, and even if it was it could been mitigated at any point along that process by not having unprotected sex or discussing children with your partner. 4-5) It's not unfair because the whole point of the programs are to bring women to an equal level with men. If you want to argue that they've gone too far, I may be able to agree with you on that one. But their mere existence is not proof of female privilege. 6) It depends on the context. There was a woman my fiancee worked with that cried every time she received negative feedback from a superior, even when it was totally warranted, constructive, and deftly given. The respect her coworkers, including my fiancee, had for her waned every time she did that. 7) You're basing the existence of a stigma on...? If you don't have to show evidence, neither do I. Women continue to struggle in getting hired in sectors that have historically been dominated by men such as STEM, gaming, the food industry, etc. The reverse is probably true for men trying to get into nursing, childcare, etc. but fortunately for us that is on a much smaller scale. 8) Even if it weren't the case, considering starting a relationship as female privilege is pretty small potatoes compared to the other issues we are discussing.
I actually thought the other guy was you, haha.
1) What? I even gave you a link to show you it wasn't just my personal experience, lol. You're free to actually look it up.
2) Have you heard stories to say otherwise? Nope? Didn't think so. Kiss a little girl in public and see what happens. I guarantee you people will look at you different than if a woman kissed a little boy. Dunno how people can deny such basic things.
3) Clearly you've never been to a poorer area, where people don't even think to use protection.
4-5) Sure it is. They get something men don't. That's a privilege.
6) Context is more social. Crying in the workplace is considered unprofessional regardless of who does it. In the workplace anger would be more the emotion to see the difference.
7) The food industry as in what? STEM I'd agree with, gaming not so much. Though so far as I'm aware STEM is a field women don't really join to begin with. Stigma, at least for childcare, stems from point 2. Women are just trusted with children far more than men.
8) Not really. Humans are social creatures, and personal relationships are a cornerstone of our society. It's not only starting relationships, it's expectations in relationships in general.
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United States42695 Posts
On May 14 2015 07:21 zlefin wrote:
Kwark -> you probably had the term explained to you by reasonable people. Was it explained to you online?
I ask because online, the reasonable majority tend to not talk as much, and the unreasonable/crazy/extreme is much more vocal, and more noticed when they talk. The issue in practice is that that extreme group tends to misuse the term; and due to their being vocal and extreme, get noticed and remembered.
Explained offline but I still don't especially struggle with the concept when it's used online. When it's used as a weapon that's dumb as fuck and when people suggest that one group is uniquely privileged they're completely unable to make that judgement because one of the points about privilege is that you don't experience the exact same world as other groups do.
The purpose of privilege is to say "This is the unfair bullshit that I have to deal with on account of being a member of X group that I believe you, as a member of Y group, don't have to deal with. Please understand that when I am complaining about said bullshit and you feel the system works pretty well it's because we do not have the same experience of that system. I am not disqualifying your experience, I am asking that you place it within the context of your group. I am not trying to win a more oppressed than thou contest, you have your own bullshit going on, I'm just asking that you don't insist on judging the bullshit I experience in group X as if my experience were the same as yours."
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On May 14 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data.
If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept. You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias? Because privilege denotes the benefits of being on the good side of patterns of bias. For one reason. It's also an ambiguous term that lazy SJWs and feminists can use at will, with no objective fact-checking required. I don't feel it's ambiguous in the slightest. It wasn't a concept that I came up with, I had the concept explained to me and at no point did I feel like I needed to tell them that they were using the wrong word for their concept. But there again I don't have an overpowering need to rename other peoples' things and tell them I'm correcting them when I do it.
It's pretty rare that I hear someone, such as yourself, use the term privilege in an appropriate manner. Kudos to you for that.
I only ever really hear the term used in ambiguous ways, frequently as 'check your privilege' in an effort to silence a voice. So it would seem that our experiences with the word differ.
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On May 14 2015 07:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:06 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
You don't know anything about me.
But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate. Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever. HR usually is heavily involved with pay setting and hiring / firing decisions. Usually the payroll department is responsible for... payroll. But do you have statistics to support your assertion? Show nested quote +The HR Function: Traditional Vs. Today
Every company – regardless of size, location or purpose – must deal with HR issues in a way that's best suited to its needs and situation. If you own a small business, you probably function as your own HR manager – that is, you personally oversee and conduct each classic HR function for your company: You recruit and hire, you set up compensation and benefits packages, and you write paychecks and keep appropriate records.
The chances are good, too, that you're the person responsible for training and developing the people you hire. And although you may not need to publish a company newsletter to inform staff about what's going on in the company, you probably make a point to keep them in the loop.
Larger companies have entire HR departments and typically employ specialists in areas such as benefits administration or 401(k) retirement plans. But smaller business owners who don't have the resources for such specialization must ensure that they are solid generalists – that is, they possess skills in several areas of the human resources function rather than one particular specialty.
The HR function, in general, has undergone enormous changes in the past 20 years. Some companies still take a highly structured, largely centralized approach to HR management. The majority of companies today, however, take a far more decentralized approach, with HR practitioners and line managers working cooperatively to develop and implement policies and programs. LinkGood enough?
Not even close, it doesn't show the HR is primarily women, that the women in the department set pay, etc.. Hell it basically says the opposite of what you asserted as fact?
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United States42695 Posts
On May 14 2015 07:33 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept. You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias? Because privilege denotes the benefits of being on the good side of patterns of bias. For one reason. It's also an ambiguous term that lazy SJWs and feminists can use at will, with no objective fact-checking required. I don't feel it's ambiguous in the slightest. It wasn't a concept that I came up with, I had the concept explained to me and at no point did I feel like I needed to tell them that they were using the wrong word for their concept. But there again I don't have an overpowering need to rename other peoples' things and tell them I'm correcting them when I do it. It's pretty rare that I hear someone, such as yourself, use the term privilege in an appropriate manner. Kudos to you for that. I only ever really hear the term used in ambiguous ways, frequently as 'check your privilege' in an effort to silence a voice. So it would seem that our experiences with the word differ.
Check your privilege just means "Stop invalidating the experiences of people who experience things in a totally different way to you on the basis of your own experiences. Instead recognise your own privilege in not experiencing things in their way and try to be a bit more sympathetic." Now obviously there is a limit to how crazy someone's claims of their experience can get before you have to say "Listen, what you experience is so obviously nuts that I can't respect it. I'm sorry but men are not oppressing you with their knees".
http://movethefuckoverbro.tumblr.com/
There's also cases where you can say "Obviously I'm not you but I experience that shit literally all the time" like when feminists claim an exclusive right over feeling nervous as hell in a shady area at night.
But between the two there is a sweet spot of "Yeah, you're right, I don't experience that and I'm willing to take your word on it that it really sucks".
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On May 14 2015 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:06 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data.
If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate. Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever. HR usually is heavily involved with pay setting and hiring / firing decisions. Usually the payroll department is responsible for... payroll. But do you have statistics to support your assertion? The HR Function: Traditional Vs. Today
Every company – regardless of size, location or purpose – must deal with HR issues in a way that's best suited to its needs and situation. If you own a small business, you probably function as your own HR manager – that is, you personally oversee and conduct each classic HR function for your company: You recruit and hire, you set up compensation and benefits packages, and you write paychecks and keep appropriate records.
The chances are good, too, that you're the person responsible for training and developing the people you hire. And although you may not need to publish a company newsletter to inform staff about what's going on in the company, you probably make a point to keep them in the loop.
Larger companies have entire HR departments and typically employ specialists in areas such as benefits administration or 401(k) retirement plans. But smaller business owners who don't have the resources for such specialization must ensure that they are solid generalists – that is, they possess skills in several areas of the human resources function rather than one particular specialty.
The HR function, in general, has undergone enormous changes in the past 20 years. Some companies still take a highly structured, largely centralized approach to HR management. The majority of companies today, however, take a far more decentralized approach, with HR practitioners and line managers working cooperatively to develop and implement policies and programs. LinkGood enough? Not even close, it doesn't show the HR is primarily women, that the women in the department set pay, etc.. Hell it basically says the opposite of what you asserted as fact?
You didn't specify what statistics you wanted. And to answer your question, no, it does not say the opposite of what I asserted.
By all accounts, women now dominate the HR profession, comprising 71 percent of HR managers, according to the Forbes List of the Top 10 Best-Paying Jobs for Women in 2011.
Source
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On May 14 2015 07:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:33 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:18 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:13 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:02 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:
[quote]
Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation.
Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though.
As to why it's more preferable:
- Women are inherently trusted more
- Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles
- Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not)
- Women have more support programs
- Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women
- Women can actually show feelings without being shamed
- Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work
- "Woman and children first" mentality
- Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc
Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source. Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept. You seem to be using privilege to just mean bias. Why not just say bias? Because privilege denotes the benefits of being on the good side of patterns of bias. For one reason. It's also an ambiguous term that lazy SJWs and feminists can use at will, with no objective fact-checking required. I don't feel it's ambiguous in the slightest. It wasn't a concept that I came up with, I had the concept explained to me and at no point did I feel like I needed to tell them that they were using the wrong word for their concept. But there again I don't have an overpowering need to rename other peoples' things and tell them I'm correcting them when I do it. It's pretty rare that I hear someone, such as yourself, use the term privilege in an appropriate manner. Kudos to you for that. I only ever really hear the term used in ambiguous ways, frequently as 'check your privilege' in an effort to silence a voice. So it would seem that our experiences with the word differ. Check your privilege just means "Stop invalidating the experiences of people who experience things in a totally different way to you on the basis of your own experiences. Instead recognise your own privilege in not experiencing things in their way and try to be a bit more sympathetic." Now obviously there is a limit to how crazy someone's claims of their experience can get before you have to say "Listen, what you experience is so obviously nuts that I can't respect it. I'm sorry but men are not oppressing you with their knees". http://movethefuckoverbro.tumblr.com/There's also cases where you can say "Obviously I'm not you but I experience that shit literally all the time" like when feminists claim an exclusive right over feeling nervous as hell in a shady area at night. But between the two there is a sweet spot of "Yeah, you're right, I don't experience that and I'm willing to take your word on it that it really sucks".
For instance some of the people on that blog are people sitting like assholes. Like people who park and take up 2 spots at a crowded venue. it's just an asshole thing to do. It's usually people with nicer cars. How much it's oppression from people with money/male subway/bus riders and how much it's just assholes being assholes isn't really something you can get from a statistic, that's why it's important to generally try to error on the side of it being a different experience for people who aren't you.
The second one about women at night is another good example of the nuance. People claiming women have an exclusive right over feeling nervous at night is ridiculous, but so is not accounting for men not really worrying about whatever bad thing happening might end with bonus rape.
The last one is always the safest thing to say and no one will ever call -ist/phobic for saying it.
But as you've said arguing about who has more or less privilege misses the point. Acknowledge it exists, and focus on being aware of your own if all the other stuff is just too much for you. (the generic you not you Kwark)
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On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:On May 13 2015 13:26 Yoav wrote:On May 13 2015 13:16 Wegandi wrote:
Check your privilege is incredibly racist towards all those poor white people that have none of this 'privilege' you speak of. Properly described, it encompasses all forms of privilege. Your idea that it is intrinsically racist is a disservice to the notion. Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis.
No, it's not. Social sciences have produced a considerable amount of serious research on white/racial privilege in our societies. It's real research and analysis, that you're expectedly dismissing with a wave of your hand because the science contradicts your worldview.
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On May 14 2015 08:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:06 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate. Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever. HR usually is heavily involved with pay setting and hiring / firing decisions. Usually the payroll department is responsible for... payroll. But do you have statistics to support your assertion? The HR Function: Traditional Vs. Today
Every company – regardless of size, location or purpose – must deal with HR issues in a way that's best suited to its needs and situation. If you own a small business, you probably function as your own HR manager – that is, you personally oversee and conduct each classic HR function for your company: You recruit and hire, you set up compensation and benefits packages, and you write paychecks and keep appropriate records.
The chances are good, too, that you're the person responsible for training and developing the people you hire. And although you may not need to publish a company newsletter to inform staff about what's going on in the company, you probably make a point to keep them in the loop.
Larger companies have entire HR departments and typically employ specialists in areas such as benefits administration or 401(k) retirement plans. But smaller business owners who don't have the resources for such specialization must ensure that they are solid generalists – that is, they possess skills in several areas of the human resources function rather than one particular specialty.
The HR function, in general, has undergone enormous changes in the past 20 years. Some companies still take a highly structured, largely centralized approach to HR management. The majority of companies today, however, take a far more decentralized approach, with HR practitioners and line managers working cooperatively to develop and implement policies and programs. LinkGood enough? Not even close, it doesn't show the HR is primarily women, that the women in the department set pay, etc.. Hell it basically says the opposite of what you asserted as fact? You didn't specify what statistics you wanted. And to answer your question, no, it does not say the opposite of what I asserted. Show nested quote +By all accounts, women now dominate the HR profession, comprising 71 percent of HR managers, according to the Forbes List of the Top 10 Best-Paying Jobs for Women in 2011. Source
You're still not showing that women are the ones primarily setting wages for other women. How would I verify theveracity of the report they are claiming their statistics from also?
Again your source kind of craps on your point again...
only 43 percent of CHRO positions in Human Resource Executive®'s 2012 Top 100 list of the nation's largest companies are held by women, when you consider that the HR pipeline is predominantly female, the likelihood that women will soon take over the CHRO ranks -- even at those large companies -- is high, some say.
At the same time, there is a growing belief that the 21st-century HR function will naturally attract a more diverse slate of candidates, including more men. Taylor points to the need for more analytics and technical skills, while Sackett cites the shift from administrative to strategic as a key driver in bringing more men into the profession.
"You don't see a lot of male administrative assistants because they are culturally pushed to business-strategy types of roles," says Sackett. "As HR becomes more strategic, it becomes more attractive for men to come into the profession because they feel they can have an impact there."
Jill Smart, chief human resource officer and member of the global management committee at Chicago-based Accenture, disagrees, saying the fact that HR is now considered a key player at the senior table will attract both men and women to the profession.
You also seem to be missing that even if you're right it doesn't change that women can be and are sexist (or whatever people want to call it) against other women.
On May 14 2015 08:14 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:On May 13 2015 13:26 Yoav wrote:On May 13 2015 13:16 Wegandi wrote:
Check your privilege is incredibly racist towards all those poor white people that have none of this 'privilege' you speak of. Properly described, it encompasses all forms of privilege. Your idea that it is intrinsically racist is a disservice to the notion. Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. No, it's not.
He eventually admitted that more or less after a couple pages. Why he thought he should say something he knew when he said it wasn't true is one of the mysteries of Jonny.
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On May 14 2015 08:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 08:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 14 2015 07:11 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 07:06 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:
[quote]
Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation.
Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though.
As to why it's more preferable:
- Women are inherently trusted more
- Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles
- Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not)
- Women have more support programs
- Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women
- Women can actually show feelings without being shamed
- Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work
- "Woman and children first" mentality
- Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc
Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate. Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever. HR usually is heavily involved with pay setting and hiring / firing decisions. Usually the payroll department is responsible for... payroll. But do you have statistics to support your assertion? The HR Function: Traditional Vs. Today
Every company – regardless of size, location or purpose – must deal with HR issues in a way that's best suited to its needs and situation. If you own a small business, you probably function as your own HR manager – that is, you personally oversee and conduct each classic HR function for your company: You recruit and hire, you set up compensation and benefits packages, and you write paychecks and keep appropriate records.
The chances are good, too, that you're the person responsible for training and developing the people you hire. And although you may not need to publish a company newsletter to inform staff about what's going on in the company, you probably make a point to keep them in the loop.
Larger companies have entire HR departments and typically employ specialists in areas such as benefits administration or 401(k) retirement plans. But smaller business owners who don't have the resources for such specialization must ensure that they are solid generalists – that is, they possess skills in several areas of the human resources function rather than one particular specialty.
The HR function, in general, has undergone enormous changes in the past 20 years. Some companies still take a highly structured, largely centralized approach to HR management. The majority of companies today, however, take a far more decentralized approach, with HR practitioners and line managers working cooperatively to develop and implement policies and programs. LinkGood enough? Not even close, it doesn't show the HR is primarily women, that the women in the department set pay, etc.. Hell it basically says the opposite of what you asserted as fact? You didn't specify what statistics you wanted. And to answer your question, no, it does not say the opposite of what I asserted. By all accounts, women now dominate the HR profession, comprising 71 percent of HR managers, according to the Forbes List of the Top 10 Best-Paying Jobs for Women in 2011. Source
You're still not showing that women are the ones primarily setting wages for other women. How would I verify theveracity of the report they are claiming their statistics from also? Again your source kind of craps on your point again... Show nested quote +only 43 percent of CHRO positions in Human Resource Executive®'s 2012 Top 100 list of the nation's largest companies are held by women, when you consider that the HR pipeline is predominantly female, the likelihood that women will soon take over the CHRO ranks -- even at those large companies -- is high, some say.
At the same time, there is a growing belief that the 21st-century HR function will naturally attract a more diverse slate of candidates, including more men. Taylor points to the need for more analytics and technical skills, while Sackett cites the shift from administrative to strategic as a key driver in bringing more men into the profession.
"You don't see a lot of male administrative assistants because they are culturally pushed to business-strategy types of roles," says Sackett. "As HR becomes more strategic, it becomes more attractive for men to come into the profession because they feel they can have an impact there."
Jill Smart, chief human resource officer and member of the global management committee at Chicago-based Accenture, disagrees, saying the fact that HR is now considered a key player at the senior table will attract both men and women to the profession. You also seem to be missing that even if you're right it doesn't change that women can be and are sexist (or whatever people want to call it) against other women.
Read what I posted. Setting pay and benefits is what people in HR do. HR is dominated by women.
Check your privilege.
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