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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 14 2015 06:02 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:46 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 05:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:33 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. I wouldn't be a resident of the United States today if I had been homosexual. It would not have been legally possible. I was given access to something as a heterosexual that homosexuals are denied. Really? I thought that was changed in the 90's... do you have a source on that? I came in on a K1 to join my fiance, now my wife. If I'd been gay and wanted to join my male fiance I'd have been shit out of luck. Question: I’m a U.S. citizen male, living in Texas, in a long-term relationship with another man, who lives in Costa Rica. We’ve done a lot of traveling back and forth over the years, but never been able to settle down in the same country. The news about DOMA being overturned is very exciting – we’d like to get married and have him join me in the United States. Would a fiance visa work for that? Is it okay that I live in a state where same-sex marriage is not allowed? Answer: A fiance visa (K-1) is indeed available to same-sex couples, based on current immigration law and the U.S. Supreme Court’s overturning of key portions of DOMA. + Show Spoiler +As with other fiances, you would need to prove that you are a U.S. citizen, that the two of you have met within the last two years, that the two of you plan to marry within 90 days of your intended’s entry into the United States, and that your partner is not inadmissible to the U.S. for health, crime, security, past unlawful presence in the U.S., or other reasons. For more on the requirements and procedures, see the “K-1 Fiance Visas” section of Nolo’s website.
After your fiance arrives in the U.S., you will need to get married reasonably soon, in order to prepare to submit your new spouse’s adjustment of status (green card) application. For a list of the U.S. states where you can potentially hold your wedding, see “Same-Sex Marriage Is Now Legal in 13 States and DC.”
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services has not been adding any additional hurdles for same-sex couples who get legally married in one state but plan to live in another state where same-sex marriage is not recognized. (There was some early speculation among attorneys that this would go in another direction . . . .)
Nevertheless, given that this aspect of the law is relatively new, it would be wise for you to consult with an experienced immigration attorney for a full, personal analysis and assistance with the paperwork. And I'd welcome you to have the wedding in NoHo and support my local economy  Also wow, there was a no gays rule in the US until 1990? Apparently there was a law passed in the 60's that banned sexual deviants, homosexuals included. No idea how strongly that was enforced or if at all. Your source doesn't disprove Kwark at all though. All it shows is that now gays are allowed to use the K-1 to get in the country. There's no date associated with it.
He didn't have a source so I found what I could.
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United States42695 Posts
On May 14 2015 06:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:02 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:46 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 05:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:33 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:[quote] Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. I wouldn't be a resident of the United States today if I had been homosexual. It would not have been legally possible. I was given access to something as a heterosexual that homosexuals are denied. Really? I thought that was changed in the 90's... do you have a source on that? I came in on a K1 to join my fiance, now my wife. If I'd been gay and wanted to join my male fiance I'd have been shit out of luck. Question: I’m a U.S. citizen male, living in Texas, in a long-term relationship with another man, who lives in Costa Rica. We’ve done a lot of traveling back and forth over the years, but never been able to settle down in the same country. The news about DOMA being overturned is very exciting – we’d like to get married and have him join me in the United States. Would a fiance visa work for that? Is it okay that I live in a state where same-sex marriage is not allowed? Answer: A fiance visa (K-1) is indeed available to same-sex couples, based on current immigration law and the U.S. Supreme Court’s overturning of key portions of DOMA. + Show Spoiler +As with other fiances, you would need to prove that you are a U.S. citizen, that the two of you have met within the last two years, that the two of you plan to marry within 90 days of your intended’s entry into the United States, and that your partner is not inadmissible to the U.S. for health, crime, security, past unlawful presence in the U.S., or other reasons. For more on the requirements and procedures, see the “K-1 Fiance Visas” section of Nolo’s website.
After your fiance arrives in the U.S., you will need to get married reasonably soon, in order to prepare to submit your new spouse’s adjustment of status (green card) application. For a list of the U.S. states where you can potentially hold your wedding, see “Same-Sex Marriage Is Now Legal in 13 States and DC.”
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services has not been adding any additional hurdles for same-sex couples who get legally married in one state but plan to live in another state where same-sex marriage is not recognized. (There was some early speculation among attorneys that this would go in another direction . . . .)
Nevertheless, given that this aspect of the law is relatively new, it would be wise for you to consult with an experienced immigration attorney for a full, personal analysis and assistance with the paperwork. And I'd welcome you to have the wedding in NoHo and support my local economy Also wow, there was a no gays rule in the US until 1990? Apparently there was a law passed in the 60's that banned sexual deviants, homosexuals included. No idea how strongly that was enforced or if at all. Your source doesn't disprove Kwark at all though. All it shows is that now gays are allowed to use the K-1 to get in the country. There's no date associated with it. He didn't have a source so I found what I could.
I didn't realise I needed to prove my experience to you. UK to New Mexico, early 2013.
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On May 14 2015 06:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:02 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:46 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 05:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:33 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
"Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. I wouldn't be a resident of the United States today if I had been homosexual. It would not have been legally possible. I was given access to something as a heterosexual that homosexuals are denied. Really? I thought that was changed in the 90's... do you have a source on that? I came in on a K1 to join my fiance, now my wife. If I'd been gay and wanted to join my male fiance I'd have been shit out of luck. Question: I’m a U.S. citizen male, living in Texas, in a long-term relationship with another man, who lives in Costa Rica. We’ve done a lot of traveling back and forth over the years, but never been able to settle down in the same country. The news about DOMA being overturned is very exciting – we’d like to get married and have him join me in the United States. Would a fiance visa work for that? Is it okay that I live in a state where same-sex marriage is not allowed? Answer: A fiance visa (K-1) is indeed available to same-sex couples, based on current immigration law and the U.S. Supreme Court’s overturning of key portions of DOMA. + Show Spoiler +As with other fiances, you would need to prove that you are a U.S. citizen, that the two of you have met within the last two years, that the two of you plan to marry within 90 days of your intended’s entry into the United States, and that your partner is not inadmissible to the U.S. for health, crime, security, past unlawful presence in the U.S., or other reasons. For more on the requirements and procedures, see the “K-1 Fiance Visas” section of Nolo’s website.
After your fiance arrives in the U.S., you will need to get married reasonably soon, in order to prepare to submit your new spouse’s adjustment of status (green card) application. For a list of the U.S. states where you can potentially hold your wedding, see “Same-Sex Marriage Is Now Legal in 13 States and DC.”
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services has not been adding any additional hurdles for same-sex couples who get legally married in one state but plan to live in another state where same-sex marriage is not recognized. (There was some early speculation among attorneys that this would go in another direction . . . .)
Nevertheless, given that this aspect of the law is relatively new, it would be wise for you to consult with an experienced immigration attorney for a full, personal analysis and assistance with the paperwork. And I'd welcome you to have the wedding in NoHo and support my local economy Also wow, there was a no gays rule in the US until 1990? Apparently there was a law passed in the 60's that banned sexual deviants, homosexuals included. No idea how strongly that was enforced or if at all. Your source doesn't disprove Kwark at all though. All it shows is that now gays are allowed to use the K-1 to get in the country. There's no date associated with it. He didn't have a source so I found what I could. I didn't realise I needed to prove my experience to you. UK to New Mexico, early 2013.
Your experience doesn't need to be proven, I was checking facts.
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On May 14 2015 06:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 06:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 06:02 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:46 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 05:42 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 05:33 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. I wouldn't be a resident of the United States today if I had been homosexual. It would not have been legally possible. I was given access to something as a heterosexual that homosexuals are denied. Really? I thought that was changed in the 90's... do you have a source on that? I came in on a K1 to join my fiance, now my wife. If I'd been gay and wanted to join my male fiance I'd have been shit out of luck. Question: I’m a U.S. citizen male, living in Texas, in a long-term relationship with another man, who lives in Costa Rica. We’ve done a lot of traveling back and forth over the years, but never been able to settle down in the same country. The news about DOMA being overturned is very exciting – we’d like to get married and have him join me in the United States. Would a fiance visa work for that? Is it okay that I live in a state where same-sex marriage is not allowed? Answer: A fiance visa (K-1) is indeed available to same-sex couples, based on current immigration law and the U.S. Supreme Court’s overturning of key portions of DOMA. + Show Spoiler +As with other fiances, you would need to prove that you are a U.S. citizen, that the two of you have met within the last two years, that the two of you plan to marry within 90 days of your intended’s entry into the United States, and that your partner is not inadmissible to the U.S. for health, crime, security, past unlawful presence in the U.S., or other reasons. For more on the requirements and procedures, see the “K-1 Fiance Visas” section of Nolo’s website.
After your fiance arrives in the U.S., you will need to get married reasonably soon, in order to prepare to submit your new spouse’s adjustment of status (green card) application. For a list of the U.S. states where you can potentially hold your wedding, see “Same-Sex Marriage Is Now Legal in 13 States and DC.”
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services has not been adding any additional hurdles for same-sex couples who get legally married in one state but plan to live in another state where same-sex marriage is not recognized. (There was some early speculation among attorneys that this would go in another direction . . . .)
Nevertheless, given that this aspect of the law is relatively new, it would be wise for you to consult with an experienced immigration attorney for a full, personal analysis and assistance with the paperwork. And I'd welcome you to have the wedding in NoHo and support my local economy Also wow, there was a no gays rule in the US until 1990? Apparently there was a law passed in the 60's that banned sexual deviants, homosexuals included. No idea how strongly that was enforced or if at all. Your source doesn't disprove Kwark at all though. All it shows is that now gays are allowed to use the K-1 to get in the country. There's no date associated with it. He didn't have a source so I found what I could. I didn't realise I needed to prove my experience to you. UK to New Mexico, early 2013. Your experience doesn't need to be proven, I was checking facts.
Well in the interest of that it happened in June 2013, as your original source notes though it wasn't settled that it would work in immigration situations. The same people fighting to keep DOMA were saying they would challenge the idea in court.
So yeah, before that it was a problem only non-straight people had to deal with, and still do if you count having to travel to some state to find a legal marriage before going where you want.
EDIT: Though it doesn't really matter if it was 2013, 2015, 2012, etc... to the point about cis-hetero-male privilege (which I benefit from).
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On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:On May 13 2015 13:26 Yoav wrote:
[quote]
Properly described, it encompasses all forms of privilege. Your idea that it is intrinsically racist is a disservice to the notion. Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries.
Add to the list that women aren't required to sign up for selective service at 18.
Aren't fitness standards different for men/women doing the same jobs in the military/police force/fire department?
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United States42695 Posts
On May 14 2015 06:27 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. Add to the list that women aren't required to sign up for selective service at 18.
Privilege isn't a ladder. It's not about making a scoreboard with white men at the top and black women at the bottom while white women and black men fight for the middle spots. Women absolutely have privileges that men don't enjoy but that doesn't in any way disprove the concept. When a man in a messy divorce is experiencing the assumption that he is an unfit parent compared to his partner then what he is experiencing is something that a woman, as a privileged group, may not understand.
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On May 14 2015 06:13 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:56 Wolfstan wrote:
I agree, being straight, white, black, male and Canadian has really made life a pleasure to experience. I am glad for the privilege to be me. (:
Is that all I have to do for SJWs? That was easy enough.
Pretty much, yeah. That's really all you, or I for that matter, can contribute to the conversation when people are talking about difficulties they experience as being part of a marginalized group. I can't possibly understand what it's like, all I can really do is try to avoid propagating it in my daily life and when I become a project manager or get put in a position of leadership, to not let prejudice or bias prevent me from assembling the best team and producing the best product, and to also let people know when I think they are letting their prejudices or biases affect their judgment.
Well that's not too bad or hard at all. As long as I can be part of my demographic, debate from the perspective of my demographic and vote in the interests of my demographic without someone asking me to empathize and imagine I was born in a different situation. For example, its illogical to attend a rally at my local police precinct if they had never done anything but show me respect and provide great service because of something happening somewhere else.
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On May 14 2015 06:31 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:56 Wolfstan wrote:
I agree, being straight, white, black, male and Canadian has really made life a pleasure to experience. I am glad for the privilege to be me. (:
Is that all I have to do for SJWs? That was easy enough.
Pretty much, yeah. That's really all you, or I for that matter, can contribute to the conversation when people are talking about difficulties they experience as being part of a marginalized group. I can't possibly understand what it's like, all I can really do is try to avoid propagating it in my daily life and when I become a project manager or get put in a position of leadership, to not let prejudice or bias prevent me from assembling the best team and producing the best product, and to also let people know when I think they are letting their prejudices or biases affect their judgment. Well that's not too bad or hard at all. As long as I can be part of my demographic, debate from the perspective of my demographic and vote in the interests of my demographic without someone asking me to empathize and imagine I was born in a different situation. For example, its illogical to attend a rally at my local police precinct if they had never done anything but show me respect and provide great service because of something happening somewhere else.
If the police tortured someone, they don't have to be your family or look/talk/act like you for you to empathize or attend a rally. As with any rally people show up for all sorts of causes, if you let strange people with strange causes stop you from showing up to any rally you'd never go to one, no matter how righteous it's purpose.
It should be easy to get behind opposition to police disregarding peoples rights. People shouldn't get distracted by the parts of the arguments they don't like and let them become apathetic to the issue at large.
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On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
- Your personal experience does not represent the situation of the country
- If that really is the case then report them, because it's illegal
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers.
-Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around.
-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago.
1) Personal experience, but if you must have a source, here's literally the first result on google to "Are women more trusted than men" : Link
I'm sure you can find more sources quite quickly to support the claim.
2) No, but society does. I've heard many stories of men being accused of being pedophiles with their children, while I've yet to hear one about women. Men are viewed as predators, while women are not. Just look at any case where an adult man slept with an under 18 girl vs an adult woman slept with an under 18 boy to see the differences.
3) It's still unfair, and not niche at all. Having no choice in keeping a child or not literally affects all men who have sex.
4) It's still unfair, lol. Being able to justify a difference in treatment doesn't mean there isn't a difference in treatment.
5) Programs to put forward women. The kinds you see in schools/the workforce, where women are promoted/encouraged to do things simply because they're women. Such programs don't exist for men. There's not a single company that has a minimum amount of men they need to hire, but minimum hires for women can be found in droves.
6) By society. Women are never shamed for showing their feelings, lol. No one looks at a crying woman and thinks to themselves "wow what a pussy, stop crying".
7) You're basing this lack of a stigma on...? Besides, it's not just nurses. Anything in childcare is almost taboo for men to join. Where's your evidence to support women have trouble getting hired in certain sectors (oh wait, this is just more of your personal experience, isn't it?)
8) Really? Because that seems to be a tradition women are very reluctant to give up. Not that I can blame them, no one wants to have to be on the side to do the asking.
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United States42695 Posts
On May 14 2015 06:42 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:[quote] Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem. - Your personal experience does not represent the situation of the country - If that really is the case then report them, because it's illegal Show nested quote +-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers.
-Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around.
-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. 1) Personal experience, but if you must have a source, here's literally the first result on google to "Are women most trusted than men" : LinkI'm sure you can find more sources quite quickly to support the claim. 2) No, but society does. I've heard many stories of men being accused of being pedophiles with their children, while I've yet to hear one about women. Men are viewed as predators, while women are not. Just look at any case where an adult man slept with an under 18 girl vs an adult woman slept with an under 18 boy to see the differences. 3) It's still unfair, and not niche at all. Having no choice in keeping a child or not literally affects all men who have sex. 4) It's still unfair, lol. Being able to justify a difference in treatment doesn't mean there isn't a difference in treatment. 5) Programs to put forward women. The kinds you see in schools/the workforce, where women are promoted/encouraged to do things simply because they're women. Such programs don't exist for men. There's not a single company that has a minimum amount of men they need to hire, but minimum hires for women can be found in droves. 6) By society. Women are never shamed for showing their feelings, lol. No one looks at a crying woman and thinks to themselves "wow what a pussy, stop crying". 7) You're basing this lack of a stigma on...? Besides, it's not just nurses. Anything in childcare is almost taboo for men to join. Where's your evidence to support women have trouble getting hired in certain sectors (oh wait, this is just more of your personal experience, isn't it?) 8) Really? Because that seems to be a tradition women are very reluctant to give up. Not that I can blame them, no one wants to have to be on the side to do the asking.
Female privilege does not disprove male privilege. The purpose of privilege is to better understand how these issues impact people differently, not to try and make a power ranking.
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On May 14 2015 06:42 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:[quote] Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem. - Your personal experience does not represent the situation of the country - If that really is the case then report them, because it's illegal Show nested quote +-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers.
-Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around.
-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. 1) Personal experience, but if you must have a source, here's literally the first result on google to "Are women most trusted than men" : LinkI'm sure you can find more sources quite quickly to support the claim. 2) No, but society does. I've heard many stories of men being accused of being pedophiles with their children, while I've yet to hear one about women. Men are viewed as predators, while women are not. Just look at any case where an adult man slept with an under 18 girl vs an adult woman slept with an under 18 boy to see the differences. 3) It's still unfair, and not niche at all. Having no choice in keeping a child or not literally affects all men who have sex. 4) It's still unfair, lol. Being able to justify a difference in treatment doesn't mean there isn't a difference in treatment. 5) Programs to put forward women. The kinds you see in schools/the workforce, where women are promoted/encouraged to do things simply because they're women. Such programs don't exist for men. There's not a single company that has a minimum amount of men they need to hire, but minimum hires for women can be found in droves. 6) By society. Women are never shamed for showing their feelings, lol. No one looks at a crying woman and thinks to themselves "wow what a pussy, stop crying". 7) You're basing this lack of a stigma on...? Besides, it's not just nurses. Anything in childcare is almost taboo for men to join. Where's your evidence to support women have trouble getting hired in certain sectors (oh wait, this is just more of your personal experience, isn't it?) 8) Really? Because that seems to be a tradition women are very reluctant to give up. Not that I can blame them, no one wants to have to be on the side to do the asking.
Just to be clear you're arguing women are more privileged than men in the US right?
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On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:On May 13 2015 13:26 Yoav wrote:
[quote]
Properly described, it encompasses all forms of privilege. Your idea that it is intrinsically racist is a disservice to the notion. Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries.
1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace?
2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now.
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United States42695 Posts
BallinWitStalin in response to 4 I don't believe there is any reason to suppose men are worse parents and that assumption would be illegal at custody hearings. It's actually a fantastic example for explaining how privilege works. MRAs are happy to cry out about how men are systematically discriminated against, and I agree that they are. You then point out that that discrimination is illegal, the Tender Year's Doctrine has been thrown out in favour of the Best Interests of the Child Doctrine, so the problem must be solved, right? They explain that no, because even though legally men are treated equally there is a pervasive social bias that lingers after the legal equality was granted which statutes cannot erase and which results in discrimination. And suddenly they've explained why feminism exists.
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On May 14 2015 06:49 KwarK wrote:
BallinWitStalin in response to 4 I don't believe there is any reason to suppose men are worse parents and that assumption would be illegal at custody hearings. It's actually a fantastic example for explaining how privilege works. MRAs are happy to cry out about how men are systematically discriminated against, and I agree that they are. You then point out that that discrimination is illegal, the Tender Year's Doctrine has been thrown out in favour of the Best Interests of the Child Doctrine, so the problem must be solved, right? They explain that no, because even though legally men are treated equally there is a pervasive social bias that lingers after the legal equality was granted which statutes cannot erase and which results in discrimination. And suddenly they've explained why feminism exists.
The inability to see that is what boggles my mind. It's not the only example like that but it's a good one.
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On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now.
The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women.
It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate.
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On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:On May 13 2015 13:31 Wegandi wrote:
[quote]
Do tell what are these privileges poor Appalachian whites have that are exclusive to white folk? You know who needs some real help in this country? Native Americans. Now, there is some goddamn racism. Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago.
Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source.
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On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:[quote] Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate.
Is that how you feel about common arguments against minimum wage? Do you feel there is super detailed real world data that supports the idea that minimum wage increases cost jobs?
EDIT: Women can be sexist against other women... What makes this so hard to understand?
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United States42695 Posts
On May 14 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:[quote] Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. + Show Spoiler +Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem.
As to your list:
-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers. -Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around. + Show Spoiler +-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. Last I checked women were having an easier time getting into male dominated jobs than men were having getting into female dominated jobs. I'll try to do out the source.
Which makes a case for female privilege also existing, not for the dismissing of privilege as a concept.
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On May 14 2015 06:42 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:10 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:[quote] Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. Deny the wage gap if you want, but I've witnessed it first-hand in my workplace and even stand to benefit from it because the leadership at my company just doesn't get the bigger picture. It's caused a couple of friends of mind to leave and seek better opportunities elsewhere. Obviously this is an anecdote, but it is an example of how sexism in the workplace is a real problem. - Your personal experience does not represent the situation of the country - If that really is the case then report them, because it's illegal Show nested quote +-Are they? I don't know what your basis is for this claim.
-Do you assume men with children are pedophiles or something? I just assume he's their father unless I see weird behavior.
-Sure, this may be unfair, but its biologically driven and a fairly niche situation. If men are so concerned about not being able to terminate their partner's pregnancy, they should probably be using protection. Problem solved. Plus, if I wanted to include biological unfairness, I would have included pregnancy on my list for women.
-Women have more support programs because society has decided women need them more than men. That's like claiming affirmative action is a benefit to being black or that your power ranger bandaid is a benefit to cutting your arm open. We wouldn't need these programs if the underlying problems didn't exist.
-What is an initiative program?
-Shamed by who? Women who show their feelings in the workplace or to anyone other than their friends or lovers are still shamed, and men who aren't allowed to express feelings to their friends or lovers should find new friends and lovers.
-Like being a male nurse? That stigma doesn't really exist anymore, and there are plenty of professions that women struggle to get into compared to men. Again the difference here is that while men may be "shamed" for working as a male nurse, they still have no problem actually getting hired as a male nurse. I'd rather be shamed and have a job than the other way around.
-Tradition is a strange bird, I won't argue with you there. But these customs have changed over time and will continue to change as society improves. It's a far more equal landscape on this front than it was even when I was in high school like 10 years ago. 1) Personal experience, but if you must have a source, here's literally the first result on google to "Are women more trusted than men" : LinkI'm sure you can find more sources quite quickly to support the claim. 2) No, but society does. I've heard many stories of men being accused of being pedophiles with their children, while I've yet to hear one about women. Men are viewed as predators, while women are not. Just look at any case where an adult man slept with an under 18 girl vs an adult woman slept with an under 18 boy to see the differences. 3) It's still unfair, and not niche at all. Having no choice in keeping a child or not literally affects all men who have sex. 4) It's still unfair, lol. Being able to justify a difference in treatment doesn't mean there isn't a difference in treatment. 5) Programs to put forward women. The kinds you see in schools/the workforce, where women are promoted/encouraged to do things simply because they're women. Such programs don't exist for men. There's not a single company that has a minimum amount of men they need to hire, but minimum hires for women can be found in droves. 6) By society. Women are never shamed for showing their feelings, lol. No one looks at a crying woman and thinks to themselves "wow what a pussy, stop crying". 7) You're basing this lack of a stigma on...? Besides, it's not just nurses. Anything in childcare is almost taboo for men to join. Where's your evidence to support women have trouble getting hired in certain sectors (oh wait, this is just more of your personal experience, isn't it?) 8) Really? Because that seems to be a tradition women are very reluctant to give up. Not that I can blame them, no one wants to have to be on the side to do the asking.
Sure that anecdote is my personal experience, but I'm also not the only person experiencing it. Ballin did a much better job than I explaining the wage gap.
1) If I'm not allowed to use personal experience, neither are you. "More trusted" than men is so broad and vague I won't even try to refute this one. More trusted to do what?
2) You've heard many stories. So again personal experiences, which are apparently not allowed. Your example about statutory rape loops back rather nicely to the slut shaming double standard. There is no reason to treat statutory rape of a boy by a woman any differently than statutory rape of a girl by a man. That double-standard is slowly changing.
3) Yeah, it totally is a niche problem. I don't consider a situation where a man and woman have unprotected sex, without discussing children, get pregnant, and then the woman wants the child but the man doesn't (or vice versa) to be a common problem, and even if it was it could been mitigated at any point along that process by not having unprotected sex or discussing children with your partner.
4-5) It's not unfair because the whole point of the programs are to bring women to an equal level with men. If you want to argue that they've gone too far, I may be able to agree with you on that one. But their mere existence is not proof of female privilege.
6) It depends on the context. There was a woman my fiancee worked with that cried every time she received negative feedback from a superior, even when it was totally warranted, constructive, and deftly given. The respect her coworkers, including my fiancee, had for her waned every time she did that.
7) You're basing the existence of a stigma on...? If you don't have to show evidence, neither do I. Women continue to struggle in getting hired in sectors that have historically been dominated by men such as STEM, gaming, the food industry, etc. The reverse is probably true for men trying to get into nursing, childcare, etc. but fortunately for us that is on a much smaller scale.
8) Even if it weren't the case, considering starting a relationship as female privilege is pretty small potatoes compared to the other issues we are discussing.
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On May 14 2015 06:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:44 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 14 2015 05:32 killa_robot wrote:On May 14 2015 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 05:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:53 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 14 2015 04:19 ZasZ. wrote:On May 14 2015 03:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 19:10 kwizach wrote:[quote] Here you go. "White privilege" isn't an absolute but a relative notion. The point is that all other things being equal, being white is overall an advantage in our societies compared to not being white. "Privilege" is a just term lazy social justice warriors use because they don't know how to do real research and analysis. Come on man, you know better than that. I know that, as a white straight male, my path through life is easier than it would be if I were not white, not straight, and not male. That's all privilege is. You just don't want to hear the actual message because you don't like the people spouting it. Come on man, you should know better than that. Try school. It's both popular and fun. You don't know anything about me. But if you honestly believe that being a straight white male isn't the easiest combination of those three attributes in our day and age, I can see why people struggle to communicate with you in this thread. Being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male. But as I said, 'privilege' is a nebulous term SJWs use to communicate general feelings about a topic. It shouldn't be used in a serious discussion, though, since it relies heavily on anecdotes, suppositions, assumptions and cherry picked data. If you want to be taken seriously, stick to making strong arguments based on data and be prepared to defend that data to criticism, because criticism is good. It makes good ideas and arguments stronger, not weaker, and only bad ideas need fear criticism. Ok, then care to tell me how being female is arguably more of a privilege than being male? I'm drawing blanks except for the fact that men are frequently poorly treated in divorce/custody proceedings. But that hardly makes up for the wage gap, slut shaming, etc. and occurs on a much smaller scale. Wage gap isn't real dude. At the same level men and women are paid the same, only exceptions are due to men negotiating for more money upfront, while women are less likely to negotiate till later, and more likely to focus on non-monetary forms of compensation. Slut shamming is an interesting double standard though. As to why it's more preferable: - Women are inherently trusted more - Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles - Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) - Women have more support programs - Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women - Women can actually show feelings without being shamed - Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work - "Woman and children first" mentality - Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc Not to say it's all sunshine and rainbows for women, but you're certainly in denial if you think women are still behind men in first world countries. 1) An unexplained wage gap exists, something along the lines of 5-8% I think. As far as economists can tell, there is no empirically observable/quantifiable reason for that gap to exist. Claiming that it doesn't exists is allowing your assumptions to over-ride the data. It's a hypothesis that sexism is responsible for that gap, but one that is difficult to test, so some level of assumption is operating there. However, the gap exists. As an interesting side-story to this, note that in the news in Canada a university just found that it was, for no reason, systematically paying female professors less than males, holding everything else equal. It fixed that issue immediately by increasing female pay to male pay standards. What is the likelihood that this is an isolated case, given that it occurred in what would be largely perceived as a "progressive" workplace? + Show Spoiler + 2) Women are trusted more -> Don't buy it. Pretty big assumption.
3) Women can be seen with children without being pedophiles -> Although I agree that this is potentially problematic, I suspect that males are much more likely to sexually abuse children than females. I am curious about whether you actually feel that police officers are justified in profiling black males, which is often a claim made by individuals who would identify as "right-wing". Do you believe that police are justified in doing so?
4) Paternity power (not even in custody, but in being the one who makes the absolute choice to keep the child or not) -> My suspicion is that child outcomes are generally better when given to female custody. Not universally, of course, but probably explains the bias in custody, and is a potentially studiable thing. I'm sure people have examined this, although I don't feel like looking this up in depth right now. With respect to the choice to keep the child (I assume you're talking abortion?), of course they should have the final say: it's their body, and there are serious long-term health issues associated with growing a child. It's not a very safe process, and it actually damages a woman's body even in best-case scenarios.
5) Women have more support programs + -Women have more initiative programs, to the point where even though men are now falling behind, focus is still on promoting women -> this is true, although changing. There is now a re-emphasis in school programming on helping at-risk male youth, something that will probably only increase over time (institutions generally have their own momentum and are slow to change, but I believe this one is changing).
6) Women can actually show feelings without being shamed -> not sure what machismo cultural context you live in, but there's very few contexts I can think of where I would be shamed by showing emotion while a woman wouldn't.
7) Women can work anywhere, while men are still shamed for choosing more "feminine" lines of work -> See number 6
8) "Woman and children first" mentality -> see number 6. But kids should (obviously) always come first anyways?
9) Anything to do with relationships. Even now, it's still considered the norm for men to ask women out, propose, etc -> Maybe in high school (again, see number 6). This is changing rapidly, though, women in my social spheres ask men out all the time. And while usually it is the man that "proposes" most of the time, pretty much all of my friends who have gotten married (and myself) have mutually agreed to prior to the official "proposal", which is really more of a "hey I got you a nice ring we're gonna get married and it's awesome!" event now. The data that economists have isn't super detailed. Yes, there remains a small <5% 'unexplained' wage gap, but the likelihood of that being due to sexism is nill. Women are over-represented in HR fields were hiring and pay setting decisions are made so the sexism argument would have to rely on women being sexist towards women. It's also observable that men care more about pay than women, which may make a difference of monetary and non-monetary benefits accruing to the gender that values one more than the other entirely appropriate.
Maybe it's different at other companies but HR at my company is not determining our pay that's done by the CEO/COO. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate "Women are represented heavily in HR" to "the wage gap can't be sexist." Does not compute without some sort of proof that at the overwhelming majority of companies, HR departments are solely responsible for payroll and have no outside influence whatsoever.
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EPT
