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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 13 2015 07:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 07:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 07:34 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 07:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:27 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 07:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:20 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 06:58 Anesthetic wrote:
[quote]
You don't necessarily have to have institutionalized power to be racist. If you are a white kid in a pre-dominantly black school then you will definitely experience racism at some point. I can say for certain that I have experienced racism on part from blacks.
And I have to very much disagree. A black kid raised in a medium income family, in an environment that is "Average" for whites, will have an advantage over his white peers that were in exactly the same conditions. Rich black families will have a HUGE advantage over an "average" white family. This is what personally irks me, that people are making such blanket scenarios that are completely unfair in some conditions. Sure, that black kid might suffer from racism at some point in his life, but he has a much higher chance than comparable white kids when he applies to college.
Like i said, that kind of thinking has absolutely no place in a civilized and fair society. Racism is something that has to be dealt with carefully on EVERY step, and we can't just jump to conclusions and ignore evidence on the pretext that "blacks can't be racist".
So frustrating explaining the same things over and over again. What you're describing is prejudice. If you want to call it racism so it makes you feel better fine, but then you have to have a different name for when it becomes institutionalized and systemic. I don't mean in one particular school, county or state either. Because they all fall under a larger umbrella of white privilege and institutional racism that they don't have over whites on a comparable level. The problem I think stems from the mistaken notion that individual cases of prejudices are universally less bad than racism. That's just not true. A black business owner who chooses not to hire any white people because they are white is doing something just as individually bad as the white owner who refuses to hire black people because they are black. The difference is in the disparate impact. If no black businesses hired white people that's not nearly the same problem as no white owned businesses hiring black people. So while on the individual level what they are doing is practically the same, the real world impact outside of their personal sphere is dramatically different. This is evidenced by the study with resumes with black vs white sounding names. The difference between racism and prejudice should crystallize for most people there. Even if every black person was out right KKK type 'racist' against whites they can't change the fact that white names will get called back more often. If you still can't see the difference or the importance of separating the two with different words I don't think I have the patience to help you. On May 13 2015 07:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I tend to point out the bad information posts coming from the lefties. That's largely because when a righty makes a post, there are far more lefties here who will actively try to refute it. You guys generally don't need my help there and I don't enjoy piling on like a bunch of grim patrons.
As for the relevance of my post, I don't see why your 'larger point' should be taken seriously when it is built upon a bunch of garbage. If your posts cannot survive scrutiny, than your posts are a failure. It's up to you to make arguments that don't suck, and it's up to you to tackle any challenges to your opinions. I should of known better than to let your inane comments push me to respond. Come on TL give me an ignore feature please!? Racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." According to any textbook definition I find on the internet, which is pretty much what I was describing, and not at all what you are describing. I do actually refer to the system of inequalities and feedback loops that keep minorities down as Institutionalized racism, I don't exactly think that you nor blacks have a copyright on what racism means to each person. But you think white people do... jfc This thread has a knack for making people put words in my mouth, its quite incredible to see how quickly you guys resort to this. No ones putting anything in your mouth. Where did you get your definition of racism from? Was it originally written or determined by non-white people? So.. the dictionary definition isn't good enough because it comes from white people. Uh-huh. Exactly, this kind of toxic thoughts is actually what keeps minorities down.I recently had a friend graduate from college and complain that the racist system didn't allow her to find a job, never mind the fact that she got a bachelors in African-American studies. Nope, ignore facts and evidence and just blame whites. I'm sure minorities will make loads of progress this way. Reminds me of the professor who was called racist for correcting spelling / grammar errors on minority students' papers. Did he correct everyone's paper? Or like, did he correct "ebonics" on a formal paper or something?
From what I read he corrected all papers and some students didn't like him correcting their style. One cited example was that the the world 'indigenous' was always capitalized when it shouldn't have been. Another was that some bibliographies used APA style, when the coursework asked for a different form.
I think a lot of the anger came from the professor sitting out of an argument between a feminist and a black student over who was more oppressed, or something.
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On May 13 2015 08:09 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 07:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 07:39 puerk wrote:
Yeah people not finding jobs has nothing to do with race but everything to do with unemployment as a concept being a desired feature of capitalism, by the employers, as it drives down the price of labor. And there being no reason there should ever be enough demand for work, to get everyone some sustenance. Capitalism prefers full employment actually. What you want is for a job to be available to everyone, and the only unemployment to be a timing difference between matching those without jobs to the jobs available (only structural unemployment). Earnings and valuations tend to be higher when the economy is doing well, and employment is close to full. Ok to be more precise capitalism as a concept of course prefers nothing. But economic actors have preferences regarding the employment level. Especially in a demand constrained economy, which almost all of them are still after the 2008 recession. Firms complain all the time that they do not find optimal employees, but instead of offering vocational training to fill that percived gap, they just forgo growth, cut costs and maximize shareholder value. Some models tend to full employment under some conditions. But on the empirical side things are much bleaker, we do not even have good estimates of what the full employment level for modern economies actually is, because of 0 interest rates. I totally agree with your point that earnings and valuations tend to be higher when the employment is close to full, but high median earnings are not percived as a good thing by many companies as cutting costs is still prefered over expansion. They just shift earnings from the bottom to the top. But that still does not adress the fundamental issue that there is no reason economic activity should ever be diverse and plenty in the sense that there should be enough employment for everyone to go around. In a model with no intertemporal stickiness of any meaningful quantity you will of course get a quick optimisation (or shall we call it race to the bottom?) to a local optimum, where suddenly everyone gets employed because their wage is equal to their very very slightly above 0 utility, but reality just doesn't work like that. Wages are sticky. Humans can't sustain themselfs longer than corporations, and therefore always lose the negotiation battle.
Growth is preferred over cutting costs. Companies with a fast growth rate will have much higher valuations than companies that grow slowly or are stagnant.
Education and training tend to work better at a broader societal level because training a particular employee could result in that employee leaving to a competitor for a higher wage, or some other reason. It is an investment that the firm will not have control over. Most companies also lack expertise in training and would have to outsource it to someone else (say, a community college or technical school) which would give them even less control.
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On May 13 2015 08:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 07:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:50 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 07:34 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 07:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 13 2015 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:27 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 07:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:20 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
So frustrating explaining the same things over and over again. What you're describing is prejudice. If you want to call it racism so it makes you feel better fine, but then you have to have a different name for when it becomes institutionalized and systemic.
I don't mean in one particular school, county or state either. Because they all fall under a larger umbrella of white privilege and institutional racism that they don't have over whites on a comparable level.
The problem I think stems from the mistaken notion that individual cases of prejudices are universally less bad than racism. That's just not true. A black business owner who chooses not to hire any white people because they are white is doing something just as individually bad as the white owner who refuses to hire black people because they are black. The difference is in the disparate impact. If no black businesses hired white people that's not nearly the same problem as no white owned businesses hiring black people.
So while on the individual level what they are doing is practically the same, the real world impact outside of their personal sphere is dramatically different.
This is evidenced by the study with resumes with black vs white sounding names. The difference between racism and prejudice should crystallize for most people there.
Even if every black person was out right KKK type 'racist' against whites they can't change the fact that white names will get called back more often.
If you still can't see the difference or the importance of separating the two with different words I don't think I have the patience to help you.
[quote]
I should of known better than to let your inane comments push me to respond. Come on TL give me an ignore feature please!? Racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." According to any textbook definition I find on the internet, which is pretty much what I was describing, and not at all what you are describing. I do actually refer to the system of inequalities and feedback loops that keep minorities down as Institutionalized racism, I don't exactly think that you nor blacks have a copyright on what racism means to each person. But you think white people do... jfc This thread has a knack for making people put words in my mouth, its quite incredible to see how quickly you guys resort to this. No ones putting anything in your mouth. Where did you get your definition of racism from? Was it originally written or determined by non-white people? So.. the dictionary definition isn't good enough because it comes from white people. Uh-huh. Exactly, this kind of toxic thoughts is actually what keeps minorities down.I recently had a friend graduate from college and complain that the racist system didn't allow her to find a job, never mind the fact that she got a bachelors in African-American studies. Nope, ignore facts and evidence and just blame whites. I'm sure minorities will make loads of progress this way. Reminds me of the professor who was called racist for correcting spelling / grammar errors on minority students' papers. Did he correct everyone's paper? Or like, did he correct "ebonics" on a formal paper or something? From what I read he corrected all papers and some students didn't like him correcting their style. One cited example was that the the world 'indigenous' was always capitalized when it shouldn't have been. Another was that some bibliographies used APA style, when the coursework asked for a different form. I think a lot of the anger came from the professor sitting out of an argument between a feminist and a black student over who was more oppressed, or something.
Yeah it just sounds like the teacher was critical of students' grammar and syntax and other peripheral (yet important) writing criteria besides just the content. Sounds totally fine to me.
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On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 06:06 Anesthetic wrote:
@GreenHorizons
I think your on a thin line here, while I understand your points about blacks having unique problems that whites can't understand, at the very same time this can so easily turn into the "Blacks can't be racist" type of thoughts that are just so incredibly dumb.
Things have to be taken in an objective manner and thats quite a big problem with the Social Justice Movement, because even though YOU are using proper arguments/logic, a lot of those movements prefer to just act like nobody except blacks can comment on black issues, even if they have much stronger evidence. While I completely understand that whites will never know what its like to be a minority in this country(I am Mexican myself), there always have to be an effort to remain objective. Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem.
Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with.
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On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 06:06 Anesthetic wrote:
@GreenHorizons
I think your on a thin line here, while I understand your points about blacks having unique problems that whites can't understand, at the very same time this can so easily turn into the "Blacks can't be racist" type of thoughts that are just so incredibly dumb.
Things have to be taken in an objective manner and thats quite a big problem with the Social Justice Movement, because even though YOU are using proper arguments/logic, a lot of those movements prefer to just act like nobody except blacks can comment on black issues, even if they have much stronger evidence. While I completely understand that whites will never know what its like to be a minority in this country(I am Mexican myself), there always have to be an effort to remain objective. Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with.
lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using.
Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem.
When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist.
The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating.
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On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 06:06 Anesthetic wrote:
@GreenHorizons
I think your on a thin line here, while I understand your points about blacks having unique problems that whites can't understand, at the very same time this can so easily turn into the "Blacks can't be racist" type of thoughts that are just so incredibly dumb.
Things have to be taken in an objective manner and thats quite a big problem with the Social Justice Movement, because even though YOU are using proper arguments/logic, a lot of those movements prefer to just act like nobody except blacks can comment on black issues, even if they have much stronger evidence. While I completely understand that whites will never know what its like to be a minority in this country(I am Mexican myself), there always have to be an effort to remain objective. Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating.
Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege".
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On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 06:06 Anesthetic wrote:
@GreenHorizons
I think your on a thin line here, while I understand your points about blacks having unique problems that whites can't understand, at the very same time this can so easily turn into the "Blacks can't be racist" type of thoughts that are just so incredibly dumb.
Things have to be taken in an objective manner and thats quite a big problem with the Social Justice Movement, because even though YOU are using proper arguments/logic, a lot of those movements prefer to just act like nobody except blacks can comment on black issues, even if they have much stronger evidence. While I completely understand that whites will never know what its like to be a minority in this country(I am Mexican myself), there always have to be an effort to remain objective. Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege".
People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it.
The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change.
You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage.
Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages.
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On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 06:06 Anesthetic wrote:
@GreenHorizons
I think your on a thin line here, while I understand your points about blacks having unique problems that whites can't understand, at the very same time this can so easily turn into the "Blacks can't be racist" type of thoughts that are just so incredibly dumb.
Things have to be taken in an objective manner and thats quite a big problem with the Social Justice Movement, because even though YOU are using proper arguments/logic, a lot of those movements prefer to just act like nobody except blacks can comment on black issues, even if they have much stronger evidence. While I completely understand that whites will never know what its like to be a minority in this country(I am Mexican myself), there always have to be an effort to remain objective. Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages.
If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture.
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United States42696 Posts
On May 13 2015 09:15 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture.
I think you missed his point entirely.
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On May 13 2015 09:15 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture.
Haha... Why do you think interracial marriage is 'rare' and will continue to be so? What makes you assert it with such confidence?
EDIT: Also are we both not Americans? Or is your country a different one than mine?
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On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 06:06 Anesthetic wrote:
@GreenHorizons
I think your on a thin line here, while I understand your points about blacks having unique problems that whites can't understand, at the very same time this can so easily turn into the "Blacks can't be racist" type of thoughts that are just so incredibly dumb.
Things have to be taken in an objective manner and thats quite a big problem with the Social Justice Movement, because even though YOU are using proper arguments/logic, a lot of those movements prefer to just act like nobody except blacks can comment on black issues, even if they have much stronger evidence. While I completely understand that whites will never know what its like to be a minority in this country(I am Mexican myself), there always have to be an effort to remain objective. Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages.
So what's the goal? A colorblind society or not? You seem to be under the delusion that there will be lynchings of white people or something.
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On May 13 2015 09:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:15 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention.
You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture. I think you missed his point entirely.
I did actually misread, however I'm not quite sure what the point of pointing out that "whites" will be easy to spot is.
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United States42696 Posts
On May 13 2015 09:23 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2015 09:15 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same.
The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said.
If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own.
However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades.
Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture. I think you missed his point entirely. I did actually misread, however I'm not quite sure what the point of pointing out that "whites" will be easy to spot is.
That anyone with lighter skin than the normalised idea of black will be easy to spot and identify as an "other". He's using this future as a parallel to explain how the current system works, ie if you've got darkish skin, if you're half black, or a quarter black or whatever then you count as full black. You can be pointed out and identified as an "other" as opposed to the pure white.
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On May 13 2015 09:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:23 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2015 09:15 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait.
White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture. I think you missed his point entirely. I did actually misread, however I'm not quite sure what the point of pointing out that "whites" will be easy to spot is. That anyone with lighter skin than the normalised idea of black will be easy to spot and identify as an "other". He's using this future as a parallel to explain how the current system works, ie if you've got darkish skin, if you're half black, or a quarter black or whatever then you count as full black. You can be pointed out and identified as an "other" as opposed to the pure white. I don't exactly think thats very relevant because I don't exactly think that thats gonna cause many if any problems for whites. Although to be fair I am using my own personal experiences for this. My initial point was to state that things will probably get a lot worse for blacks specifically If Mexicans become the majority and keep the racist mindset that mostly applies to blacks.
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United States42696 Posts
On May 13 2015 09:31 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:26 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2015 09:23 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2015 09:15 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it.
The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture. I think you missed his point entirely. I did actually misread, however I'm not quite sure what the point of pointing out that "whites" will be easy to spot is. That anyone with lighter skin than the normalised idea of black will be easy to spot and identify as an "other". He's using this future as a parallel to explain how the current system works, ie if you've got darkish skin, if you're half black, or a quarter black or whatever then you count as full black. You can be pointed out and identified as an "other" as opposed to the pure white. I don't exactly think thats very relevant because I don't exactly think that thats gonna cause many if any problems for whites. Although to be fair I am using my own personal experiences for this. My initial point was to state that things will probably get a lot worse for blacks specifically If Mexicans become the majority and keep the racist mindset that mostly applies to blacks.
You and he are having two completely different discussions and yet quoting each other about it.
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I think y'all could need a course in genetics...
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On May 13 2015 09:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:31 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:26 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2015 09:23 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:17 KwarK wrote:On May 13 2015 09:15 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. If you think your gonna successfully pressure Mexicans to darken up their bloodline then your fairly delusional and quite out of touch with reality, especially since you don't seem to be aware of the fact that Interracial Marriage is still incredibly rare, and will continue to be so. Also, it doesn't really matter if you make Mexican people aware of the fact that they are racist or have "privilege", if you think they aren't gonna go right ahead and keep doing what they are doing then you don't understand my country's culture. I think you missed his point entirely. I did actually misread, however I'm not quite sure what the point of pointing out that "whites" will be easy to spot is. That anyone with lighter skin than the normalised idea of black will be easy to spot and identify as an "other". He's using this future as a parallel to explain how the current system works, ie if you've got darkish skin, if you're half black, or a quarter black or whatever then you count as full black. You can be pointed out and identified as an "other" as opposed to the pure white. I don't exactly think thats very relevant because I don't exactly think that thats gonna cause many if any problems for whites. Although to be fair I am using my own personal experiences for this. My initial point was to state that things will probably get a lot worse for blacks specifically If Mexicans become the majority and keep the racist mindset that mostly applies to blacks. You and he are having two completely different discussions and yet quoting each other about it.
IDK, his whole argument seems to be that whites will have it bad when the racial demographics change, I was trying to explain that I do not believe this is the case and whites will still be in an OK spot, Blacks however will probably suffer from more blatant and open racism.
Not sure if I misunderstood or if I wasn't clear in my points.
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The point he is trying to make is that whites are currently unable to see a lot of racism because they do not experience it, but they will when they are eventually the minority.
I do not particularly agree with this mindset as I believe a lot of the issues that GH considers caused by racism are actually issues pertaining to social class. Not to say that racism isn't an issue at all - it is, it is just not as simple as that and it is definitely not a white vs black world out there.
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On May 13 2015 09:49 Ghostcom wrote:
The point he is trying to make is that whites are currently unable to see a lot of racism because they do not experience it, but they will when they are eventually the minority.
I do not particularly agree with this mindset as I believe a lot of the issues that GH considers caused by racism are actually issues pertaining to social class. Not to say that racism isn't an issue at all - it is, it is just not as simple as that and it is definitely not a white vs black world out there.
What? I don't actually think this is true at all, between the whites who know that racism occurs, but prefer to just lie and say that it doesn't, and the massive social justice movements I don't actually think that there are many whites who think that racism is a non-issue. I think more-so the issue tends to be that there is no actual progress occurring, but thats another whole entire issue.
And I agree completely that social classes are a bigger issue that race. Affirmative action should be based on family income/wealth, not across race.
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On May 13 2015 09:22 Wolfstan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 09:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 09:01 Anesthetic wrote:On May 13 2015 08:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 08:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 08:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 13 2015 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 13 2015 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Blacks can't be racist, they don't have the institutional power to be racist. They can act on prejudices but they lack the institutionalized power to make those prejudices standard practice. But making prejudices standard practice isn't what makes something racist; that only perpetuates the racism and makes it longer lasting (which is certainly worse), but anyone can be racist exactly through the acting of prejudices that you mention. You're right that blacks being racist doesn't really mean as much as a powerful majority being racist against blacks... and that we should certainly be focusing on the bigger picture and the people in charge making sure they can spread equality... but that doesn't give minorities a free pass to be bigots. Since you have been more reasonable than most I'll address what you said. No one is giving anyone a free pass. If you read my post carefully I even said on the individual level it is practically the same. The resistance to white privilege being established as a known reality and that institutionalized racism is a one way street seems to be heavily based on just simply misunderstanding what is even being said. If anything when black people act on prejudices or act 'racist' if you prefer, I think it's a little worse since they have been a victim of such before. I give white people a little more leniency as they are largely clueless through no significant individual fault of their own. However once white people are confronted with white privilege and/or their own racism and refuse to acknowledge it, let alone correct it, that patience rapidly fades. Sorry I was late to the conversation ^^;; After reading through the previous two pages, I see that it's really more of a semantics argument than anything else. I just became immediately worried when you explicitly said "Blacks can't be racist", but your definition of what that entails (racism, that is), seems to involve a much deeper and more institutionalized form (one that I would consider a subset of racism in general). And that's fine; I just think a lot of other people took issue with your more specific criteria for racism instead of the broader dictionary-type definition. After all, I'm sure quite a few people could see your phrase "Blacks can't be racist" as relatively baiting... and it seems many (including myself) took that bait. White privilege (and male privilege, for that matter) is a huge issue in America, and it's historically been such a one-way street, that it's certainly practical to talk about it from the perspective of institutionalized racism. Frankly I don't give a shit about the words. The point being blacks can't be 'systemically/institutionally racist' if that what you want to call it. The arguing over the specific words is just more evidence of the problem. The irredeemably dumb comments like "maybe it's racism, maybe it's not" is the typical bullshit I'm talking about. There's no question racism or 'implicit bias' if you prefer is a real problem. Anyone who suggests otherwise is part of the problem. Well you really should give a shit about the words, because semantics arguments can be huge annoyances and derail the real point you want to make. We have to make sure we're all on the same page with the premises and terminology and definitions we're working with, or else no one is going to take you seriously when you privately redefine a word like racism and make a statement that's demonstrably absurd unless we preemptively read it in some other context that only you're working with. lol I didn't privately redefine the word. It's being taught in colleges across the country, eventually the definitions I'm using will be the more popular and understood meanings than the ones people here are using. Just like accepting white privilege is a reality and that institutionalized implicit biases are a real and significant problem. When white people become the minority in not just the world, but the US too, things are going to start to look a lot different. Suddenly it will be clear when 'white' replaces some other group how the same exact words suddenly feel racist. The deaf ears those complaints fall on will be a direct result of the types of comments you see here and elsewhere. I'm not saying they will be right to ignore them, but I won't have much pity for those who's behavior they are imitating. Oh buddy, you think the system is racist now? Wait till Mexican people become the majority. Just look at LA and such areas to look at whats up and coming, blacks have been threatened by death to get out of compton and other similar areas by Mexican people moving in, and your not gonna be able to guilt trip my people with "white privilege". People who feel guilty about simply having white/male/whatever privilege are being idiotic. The point of pointing out privilege isn't to make people feel guilty or bad, the point is that it's hard to see and people need help seeing it, so they can address it. The only reason people should feel guilty about privilege is if they deny it exists or if they have no desire for it to change. You're probably right though about there being a divide between light skinned brown people and dark skinned brown/black people, but people are going to be so mixed, white will be the new black, in that 'white' people will be easy to spot and single out, far more so than trying to tell if a black person has Mexican (or Hispanic) heritage. Light skinned non-whites will be pressured to darken up their bloodline like white's were/are encouraged to keep their blood lines 'pure'. That 'purity' will be what makes whites so easy to single out, not to mention as time passes exclusively white people will have a higher and higher chance of being that way specifically due to racist teachings. Giving non-whites all the ammunition they need to paint the remaining 'pure' whites as savages. So what's the goal? A colorblind society or not? You seem to be under the delusion that there will be lynchings of white people or something.
I think what you mean in your head when you say 'colorblind' is more or less what I'd prefer, so I'd say yes. However, what 'colorblind' usually means is ignore racial issues entirely and think that it puts us at, near, or closer to some 'null racism' point, which I find preposterous, so the answer would be no or 'not'.
So it's a bit of a loaded question like the "Can black people be (institutionally and systemically) 'racist'. We have to clearly understand what 'colorblind' means to both of us, before we can move forward to the more direct question.
In general I don't think robbing people of their individual experience by being 'blind' to it is helpful, but the idea of not using 'race' for generalizing purposes is generally positive.
That got long lol.
+ Show Spoiler +Social roles (such as gender) are a larger issue that lurk behind our constructions of race, but as we are still coming to grips with the idea that race is a social construct, the idea that binary genders and specific social rolls also have huge socially constructed (rather than physiologically or economically based as most of us are taught) foundations are far from being accepted generally, I try not to pick those fights. + Show Spoiler + I do get a small amount of glee when I see them surface occasionally before being slapped down by 'saner minds'. Sooner or later you guys (or we if you prefer) are going to freak out. Paranoia will set in and those white 'kkk like' militia's rhetoric will sound more and more reasonable. They will rapidly swell in ranks and we will have to confront that reality in this country. One might ask why would the ranks swell? Well see, implicit bias is a big problem. White people don't realize this yet because the vast majority of implicit biases work in their favor. (There are similar issues with gender, occupation, etc...) This is especially true for white men. That is going to change, and privileged people (again white men will bear the brunt of this) are not going to like it. Stuff they were totally fine with (or did nothing to change) are suddenly going to be turned upside-down. Just wait to see what laws look like when 50% of congress is Women and non-whites (we very well might not live quite that long). Then imagine what it will look like when it's 55% women and 75% non-'pure' white. It's not to say they are going to go all black panther or whatever, just that the longer we spend arguing over whether implicit bias is a problem and whether it should/can be addressed and the urgency the less time white people have to make it stick before they end up on the wrong side of it. If you don't think it's a problem just look how angry even the most obviously racist people get (talking crazy uncle, "Muslim Kenyan" types) get if you call out that just what they are saying (not them as a person) is racist. Then think about how shitty it feels to get lumped in with them. That's just the beginning of what I'm talking about. Gay marriage is another one. (I should include Cis-Hetero before 'white male' but I'm speaking to my audience) Climate change, pre-history, religion, etc... They are all dominoes, falling, leading to the inevitable. It's almost as easy to say 'white people are racist' as it was to say 'black people are lazy' in the 90's. They are both absurd statements on their face for innumerable reasons but that doesn't change how/where they are acceptable things to say. That's again, just the beginning.
TLDR: Embrace 'check your privilege', you'll want it when you need it. (or your kids/grand kids/great grand kids)
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EPT
