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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1949

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42698 Posts
May 12 2015 16:10 GMT
#38961
I think Catholics generally have more kids.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
May 12 2015 16:25 GMT
#38962
Also you are probably underestimating the Central/South American population. Christians from those countries are majority Catholic.
Freeeeeeedom
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44353 Posts
May 12 2015 16:28 GMT
#38963
On May 13 2015 01:25 cLutZ wrote:
Also you are probably underestimating the Central/South American population. Christians from those countries are majority Catholic.


I think this data is for the United States only though, so the reference to "American Christians" has been (United States of) rather than (North/South continents).
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 12 2015 16:29 GMT
#38964
Immigrants.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
May 12 2015 16:29 GMT
#38965
On May 13 2015 01:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2015 01:25 cLutZ wrote:
Also you are probably underestimating the Central/South American population. Christians from those countries are majority Catholic.


I think this data is for the United States only though, so the reference to "American Christians" has been (United States of) rather than (North/South continents).


Immigrants/1st/2nd/etc generation.
Freeeeeeedom
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44353 Posts
May 12 2015 16:30 GMT
#38966
On May 13 2015 01:29 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2015 01:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On May 13 2015 01:25 cLutZ wrote:
Also you are probably underestimating the Central/South American population. Christians from those countries are majority Catholic.


I think this data is for the United States only though, so the reference to "American Christians" has been (United States of) rather than (North/South continents).


Immigrants/1st/2nd/etc generation.


Ah okay
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
May 12 2015 16:36 GMT
#38967
On May 12 2015 23:53 Nyxisto wrote:
I think radical Christians suffer from the same thing parts of the Muslim world suffer from, which is a hate for religious institutions. The whole emphasis on taking scripture literally and having nobody between "man and god" produces some kind of tribal situation where small communities all have their own isolated teachings and preachers and there is absolutely no exchange of ideas happening.

yea, the problem is people not blindly following authorities.

crisp analysis
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 16:44:18
May 12 2015 16:40 GMT
#38968
There's a lot of space between rejecting any form of authority, including legitimate authority, and blindly following the dear leader. Actually some level of centralized organisation is great at sorting out extremism, which is something quite a lot of religious groups are in dire need off.

Reminds me of people who don't follow 'mainstream' media but instead chose to follow conspiracy blogs because you just can't trust the evil industrial media complex.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44353 Posts
May 12 2015 16:40 GMT
#38969
On May 13 2015 01:36 Paljas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 23:53 Nyxisto wrote:
I think radical Christians suffer from the same thing parts of the Muslim world suffer from, which is a hate for religious institutions. The whole emphasis on taking scripture literally and having nobody between "man and god" produces some kind of tribal situation where small communities all have their own isolated teachings and preachers and there is absolutely no exchange of ideas happening.

yea, the problem is people not blindly following authorities.

crisp analysis


Isn't that rather ironic though, for those who have faith in the supernatural?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
May 12 2015 17:09 GMT
#38970
On May 13 2015 01:40 Nyxisto wrote:
There's a lot of space between rejecting any form of authority, including legitimate authority, and blindly following the dear leader. Actually some level of centralized organisation is great at sorting out extremism, which is something quite a lot of religious groups are in dire need off.

Reminds me of people who don't follow 'mainstream' media but instead chose to follow conspiracy blogs because you just can't trust the evil industrial media complex.

centralized organisation is also great at institutionalizing extremism, as shown by history of the world biggest religion.

i also dont quite understand why you claim that taking scripture literally is exclusive to non organised religion and why you equate religious organisation to a middle man with god.
people are no sheep, they are very well capable to make sensible interpretation of the scripture without anyone telling them how to do it.


@DarkPlasmaBall
Nyxisto's legitimate religious authority is more ironic
TL+ Member
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44353 Posts
May 12 2015 17:16 GMT
#38971
On May 13 2015 02:09 Paljas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2015 01:40 Nyxisto wrote:
There's a lot of space between rejecting any form of authority, including legitimate authority, and blindly following the dear leader. Actually some level of centralized organisation is great at sorting out extremism, which is something quite a lot of religious groups are in dire need off.

Reminds me of people who don't follow 'mainstream' media but instead chose to follow conspiracy blogs because you just can't trust the evil industrial media complex.

centralized organisation is also great at institutionalizing extremism, as shown by history of the world biggest religion.

i also dont quite understand why you claim that taking scripture literally is exclusive to non organised religion and why you equate religious organisation to a middle man with god.
people are no sheep, they are very well capable to make sensible interpretation of the scripture without anyone telling them how to do it.


@DarkPlasmaBall
Nyxisto's legitimate religious authority is more ironic


Agreed.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 17:50:26
May 12 2015 17:43 GMT
#38972
On May 13 2015 02:09 Paljas wrote:
centralized organisation is also great at institutionalizing extremism, as shown by history of the world biggest religion.


And this is why we should teach history better. The Catholic church, for all its many faults (I'm a Presbyterian and they spent a lot of time and money trying to wipe us out) has generally been a pretty solid bulwark against extremism. They were broadly anti-war, strongly against harming non-combatants, quite consistently stood against anti-Jewish violence (often sheltering fleeing Jews), and opposed the Spanish Inquisition.

But I know, atheistic narrative, religion bad, etc. (Because we all know atheists never engage in repression of infidels, ideological violence, suicide bombing, terrorism, and mass killings)

On May 12 2015 23:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 23:21 Yoav wrote:
On May 12 2015 22:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
America’s Changing Religious Landscape
Christians Decline Sharply as Share of Population; Unaffiliated and Other Faiths Continue to Grow


The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center. Moreover, these changes are taking place across the religious landscape, affecting all regions of the country and many demographic groups. While the drop in Christian affiliation is particularly pronounced among young adults, it is occurring among Americans of all ages. The same trends are seen among whites, blacks and Latinos; among both college graduates and adults with only a high school education; and among women as well as men.

To be sure, the United States remains home to more Christians than any other country in the world, and a large majority of Americans – roughly seven-in-ten – continue to identify with some branch of the Christian faith.1 But the major new survey of more than 35,000 Americans by the Pew Research Center finds that the percentage of adults (ages 18 and older) who describe themselves as Christians has dropped by nearly eight percentage points in just seven years, from 78.4% in an equally massive Pew Research survey in 2007 to 70.6% in 2014. Over the same period, the percentage of Americans who are religiously unaffiliated – describing themselves as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” – has jumped more than six points, from 16.1% to 22.8%. And the share of Americans who identify with non-Christian faiths also has inched up, rising 1.2 percentage points, from 4.7% in 2007 to 5.9% in 2014. Growth has been especially great among Muslims and Hindus, albeit from a very low base.

Christians Decline as Share of U.S. Population; Other Faiths and the Unaffiliated Are GrowingThe drop in the Christian share of the population has been driven mainly by declines among mainline Protestants and Catholics. Each of those large religious traditions has shrunk by approximately three percentage points since 2007. The evangelical Protestant share of the U.S. population also has dipped, but at a slower rate, falling by about one percentage point since 2007.2

Even as their numbers decline, American Christians – like the U.S. population as a whole – are becoming more racially and ethnically diverse. Non-Hispanic whites now account for smaller shares of evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics than they did seven years earlier, while Hispanics have grown as a share of all three religious groups. Racial and ethnic minorities now make up 41% of Catholics (up from 35% in 2007), 24% of evangelical Protestants (up from 19%) and 14% of mainline Protestants (up from 9%).

[image loading] [image loading]


(even more information at http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/ )

There are about 4 times as many non-religious Americans (atheists, agnostics, etc.) as there are non-Christian faith Americans (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.);
the non-religious demographic continues to increase steadily to nearly 1/4 of all Americans;
and Christian faith Americans still make up a large majority, although dropping steadily to around 70%.

I wonder if 23% is a big enough chunk of the American population for non-religious people to become part of the consideration when every American politician metaphorically gives the Christian god a blowjob during and at the end of every speech. Politicians also seem to have a lot more conversations about non-Christian faiths than they do about non-religious people.


Can I emphatically bitch about Pew not even including historically black denominations on the chart (it's in the data)? I mean, we already basically erase black folks from any discussion of religion in the US, which is just frankly bizarre. It's outrageous, and paints a more realistic picture than "white evangelicals are all there is to American Christianity." The US is 70% nominally Christian... "Evangelicals" are, in this poll, 25% of the population, which sounds about right. They're about a third of American Christianity. So yeah, why every politician acts like Jerry Falwell speaks for all American Christians is quite beyond my comprehension. I'll give evangelicals that they're good at outreach and the increasingly voluntary nature of religion has been good to them. I hope in my life to be a part of the outreach mainliners do to keep from getting too small in the US religious scene.


The table does have a category for "historically black" Christian denominations, but I certainly think it would be cool if they cross-referenced religion with race/ ethnicity as well. I'd imagine that if every sect of Christianity was included on the table, it would be twice as long and have a lot of 0.1% rows. I think this data is trying to show the heavy hitters and the different religions overall.


Historically black churches are on the table, as I said, but they are excluded from the chart (along with Mormons and some). They are absolutely sizable enough to matter, especially given their beyond-numbers attendance and intellectual life/social engagement. They're also politically important, because if the Republicans ever get their shit together, they are the obvious target for large-scale defections away from the Democrats. Blacks have been taken for granted by the Democrats for a long time, but Dems get away with it because the Republicans look so much worse. Churches are the main structure that would be organized enough to actually effect a major defection, if the Republicans are able to make a good pitch.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 17:59:30
May 12 2015 17:53 GMT
#38973
Yeah, I also don't get this. The Catholic church has a pretty strong Humanist tradition, which has a lot to with it's universal appeal over national borders. There's a reason Bismarck fought a culture war against them alongside nationalist Protestants, not to speak of Anti-Semitism that basically started with Luther.

Grass roots democratic movements aren't automatically humanist and progressive, quite the opposite actually most of the time.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 18:24:40
May 12 2015 18:06 GMT
#38974
the crusades were anti war. good to know

the spanish inquisition was also not the only inquisition and is for itself also a terrible argument in favor of religous organisations based on authority

also no idea why yoav is already coming up with that atheist strawman. i actually defended peoples choice to be religious without the need to follow an authority.
TL+ Member
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 12 2015 18:06 GMT
#38975
Anti-semitism started with Luther?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
May 12 2015 18:16 GMT
#38976
On May 13 2015 03:06 IgnE wrote:
Anti-semitism started with Luther?

the modern incarnation and revitalisation of it was heavily influenced by him
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 18:20:24
May 12 2015 18:18 GMT
#38977
In Germany, yes pretty much. You'll have trouble finding another person who had that much influence on Anti-Semitic intellectuals throughout the centuries.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 18:30:52
May 12 2015 18:22 GMT
#38978
I think it's funny when Republicans get in a tizzy about "The War on Christians/Christmas" in the US. It's not so ironically the same people who use the fact that black people hold high office to refute racism being a significant problem.

As if they didn't realize Christians have held and hold practically every important position in government and business. Hell republicans have 1 non-christian in their entire national representation (house and senate). Which means the republican representation is 99.7% Christian. the one non-Christian being Jewish. They almost had 0 non-Christians but picked one up when they lost one.

Congress is 80 percent white, an equal amount male, and 92 percent Christian

Republican's in congress are ~87% white males and 99.7% Christian

America is about 70% white (or 30% non-white) ~50% women ~75% Christian

Republicans in congress don't look anything like America. America has had a long history of benefiting from abusing certain groups, what we are seeing manifest is the sheer terror that white men are facing from confronting the reality that they are losing absolute control. It's best personified by people like O'Reilly and Hannity.

The mere visage of white Christians losing total dominance is enough to conjure specters of an impending end of Christianity and freedom of religion. If people think American Christians have it bad, just wait until it's non-white non-Christian people in the majority in the US (white Christians are already severely outnumbered globally). It's only a few decades away...

When all the arguments white (primarily Christian) males have made against discrimination and racial prejudice get thrown back in their face because they have lost control of the system and are now on the other side of it, it will probably incense them to riot like they just won/lost a championship or worse.

Then we'll have commentators asking what's wrong with the white community that even after hundreds of years of oppressing everyone else they still have so many poor people who often turn to a life of crime. How almost 40 exclusively white administrations couldn't help with so much white poverty and crime.

How even when white people controlled everything there has always been more white people on government aid than any other group.

It will get mentioned that even though only 30% of congress is white they still hold a larger share of representation (proportionally to their population too) than say black people did when Obama was elected. So why are they complaining?

On May 13 2015 02:43 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2015 02:09 Paljas wrote:
centralized organisation is also great at institutionalizing extremism, as shown by history of the world biggest religion.


And this is why we should teach history better. The Catholic church, for all its many faults (I'm a Presbyterian and they spent a lot of time and money trying to wipe us out) has generally been a pretty solid bulwark against extremism. They were broadly anti-war, strongly against harming non-combatants, quite consistently stood against anti-Jewish violence (often sheltering fleeing Jews), and opposed the Spanish Inquisition.

But I know, atheistic narrative, religion bad, etc. (Because we all know atheists never engage in repression of infidels, ideological violence, suicide bombing, terrorism, and mass killings)

Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 23:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On May 12 2015 23:21 Yoav wrote:
On May 12 2015 22:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
America’s Changing Religious Landscape
Christians Decline Sharply as Share of Population; Unaffiliated and Other Faiths Continue to Grow


The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center. Moreover, these changes are taking place across the religious landscape, affecting all regions of the country and many demographic groups. While the drop in Christian affiliation is particularly pronounced among young adults, it is occurring among Americans of all ages. The same trends are seen among whites, blacks and Latinos; among both college graduates and adults with only a high school education; and among women as well as men.

To be sure, the United States remains home to more Christians than any other country in the world, and a large majority of Americans – roughly seven-in-ten – continue to identify with some branch of the Christian faith.1 But the major new survey of more than 35,000 Americans by the Pew Research Center finds that the percentage of adults (ages 18 and older) who describe themselves as Christians has dropped by nearly eight percentage points in just seven years, from 78.4% in an equally massive Pew Research survey in 2007 to 70.6% in 2014. Over the same period, the percentage of Americans who are religiously unaffiliated – describing themselves as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” – has jumped more than six points, from 16.1% to 22.8%. And the share of Americans who identify with non-Christian faiths also has inched up, rising 1.2 percentage points, from 4.7% in 2007 to 5.9% in 2014. Growth has been especially great among Muslims and Hindus, albeit from a very low base.

Christians Decline as Share of U.S. Population; Other Faiths and the Unaffiliated Are GrowingThe drop in the Christian share of the population has been driven mainly by declines among mainline Protestants and Catholics. Each of those large religious traditions has shrunk by approximately three percentage points since 2007. The evangelical Protestant share of the U.S. population also has dipped, but at a slower rate, falling by about one percentage point since 2007.2

Even as their numbers decline, American Christians – like the U.S. population as a whole – are becoming more racially and ethnically diverse. Non-Hispanic whites now account for smaller shares of evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics than they did seven years earlier, while Hispanics have grown as a share of all three religious groups. Racial and ethnic minorities now make up 41% of Catholics (up from 35% in 2007), 24% of evangelical Protestants (up from 19%) and 14% of mainline Protestants (up from 9%).

[image loading] [image loading]


(even more information at http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/ )

There are about 4 times as many non-religious Americans (atheists, agnostics, etc.) as there are non-Christian faith Americans (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.);
the non-religious demographic continues to increase steadily to nearly 1/4 of all Americans;
and Christian faith Americans still make up a large majority, although dropping steadily to around 70%.

I wonder if 23% is a big enough chunk of the American population for non-religious people to become part of the consideration when every American politician metaphorically gives the Christian god a blowjob during and at the end of every speech. Politicians also seem to have a lot more conversations about non-Christian faiths than they do about non-religious people.


Can I emphatically bitch about Pew not even including historically black denominations on the chart (it's in the data)? I mean, we already basically erase black folks from any discussion of religion in the US, which is just frankly bizarre. It's outrageous, and paints a more realistic picture than "white evangelicals are all there is to American Christianity." The US is 70% nominally Christian... "Evangelicals" are, in this poll, 25% of the population, which sounds about right. They're about a third of American Christianity. So yeah, why every politician acts like Jerry Falwell speaks for all American Christians is quite beyond my comprehension. I'll give evangelicals that they're good at outreach and the increasingly voluntary nature of religion has been good to them. I hope in my life to be a part of the outreach mainliners do to keep from getting too small in the US religious scene.


The table does have a category for "historically black" Christian denominations, but I certainly think it would be cool if they cross-referenced religion with race/ ethnicity as well. I'd imagine that if every sect of Christianity was included on the table, it would be twice as long and have a lot of 0.1% rows. I think this data is trying to show the heavy hitters and the different religions overall.


Historically black churches are on the table, as I said, but they are excluded from the chart (along with Mormons and some). They are absolutely sizable enough to matter, especially given their beyond-numbers attendance and intellectual life/social engagement. They're also politically important, because if the Republicans ever get their shit together, they are the obvious target for large-scale defections away from the Democrats. Blacks have been taken for granted by the Democrats for a long time, but Dems get away with it because the Republicans look so much worse. Churches are the main structure that would be organized enough to actually effect a major defection, if the Republicans are able to make a good pitch.


Republicans have 0 to offer to get the black vote. The only thing black churches and Republicans agree on is being anti-gay marriage, but even there the Republicans are moving slower than the people.

Rand Paul had the best chance to get some semblance of the black vote and then he said this about Baltimore...

“I came through the train on Baltimore last night,” Paul told host Laura Ingraham. “I’m glad the train didn’t stop.”

The senator’s breezy response came just before he blamed the violent uprising there on “the breakdown of the family structure, the lack of fathers, the lack of sort of a moral code in our society.” He also expressed his sympathy for “the plight of police,” all without speaking to the circumstances surrounding the troubling death of Freddie Gray in the custody of Baltimore Police.


So no, Republicans would be lucky to see 10% of the black vote.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 18:45:19
May 12 2015 18:40 GMT
#38979
The way elections work in this country ensure that the majority of the population (if this majority is rather ubiquitious, like with % of people that are religious) will be overrepresented in government. I don't think you should antagonize Republicans for their demographics, they represent their electorate decently well (other than in terms of gender, but they tend to be more religious/conservative and so women may not even want to run).

Then we'll have commentators asking what's wrong with the white community that even after hundreds of years of oppressing everyone else they still have so many poor people who often turn to a life of crime. How almost 40 exclusively white administrations couldn't help with so much white poverty and crime.

How even when white people controlled everything there has always been more white people on government aid than any other group.

Oh fuck off, maybe it's because when white people are in government they don't exclusively focus on the needs of white people? And this is a bad thing?

Identity politics is a fucking distraction from things that actually matter. Minorities are going to become better represented over time, chill out, it's a process
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-12 18:59:57
May 12 2015 18:43 GMT
#38980
On May 13 2015 03:40 Chocolate wrote:
The way elections work in this country ensure that the majority of the population (if this majority is rather ubiquitious, like with % of people that are religious) will be overrepresented in government. I don't think you should antagonize Republicans for their demographics, they represent their electorate decently well (other than in terms of gender, but they tend to be more religious/conservative and so women may not even want to run).

Show nested quote +
Then we'll have commentators asking what's wrong with the white community that even after hundreds of years of oppressing everyone else they still have so many poor people who often turn to a life of crime. How almost 40 exclusively white administrations couldn't help with so much white poverty and crime.

How even when white people controlled everything there has always been more white people on government aid than any other group.

Oh fuck off, maybe it's because when white people are in government they don't exclusively focus on the needs of white people? And this is a bad thing?


lol, you realize every time anything racial comes up that line (or some variation) is trotted out about Obama and the black community.

It's pretty funny that it would upset you, and suddenly the non-sensible nature of the comment becomes readily apparent. Even though 40 administrations is a long time and many of them certainly did focus exclusively on white issues. For several administrations black people weren't even considered people,let alone constituents or Americans.

If black people don't have an excuse for poverty and crime related to historical transgressions than white people have even less of an excuse for all the poverty and crime we see in their communities. They were practically the only ones legally able to own land when the government was handing it out for free, yet there are still sooo many impoverished white folk, what's wrong with their communities that even after hundreds of years of oppressing their competition so many white folk are still so poor?

Why after dozens of white administrations do white people still suck up the majority of government aid. What is wrong with the white community that they still aren't on their feet? Whites were never property in the United States, they never had laws that deprived their right to own land because they were white? Whites have had every opportunity to pick themselves up or just take one of countless hand-out/ups from the government like free land, 0% minority representation, slave labor, etc...

Yet with all of that and more white people still suck up more government aid than any other group.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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