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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 24 2015 00:25 GMT
#37481
With the Supreme Court taking up same-sex marriage next week, support for protection of marriage equality is as high as it's ever been with 61 percent of Americans in favor, according to a new Washington Post/ABC poll.

The survey also finds specific support for same-sex marriage rights across the states.

Sixty-two percent of Americans say states should have to recognize same-sex marriages performed legally in other states, while sixty-one percent say states should not be allowed to ban same-sex marriages. Even 45 percent of Republicans said they oppose allowing individual state bans.

Question wording may play a role. The survey asked respondents to interpret something of a mouthful: whether they "support or oppose allowing individual states to prohibit same-sex marriages."

As The Washington Post noted, other polls, phrasing the options a little differently, have found considerably more support for giving states the option to make their own decisions on same-sex marriage, with Republicans especially amenable to supporting states' discretion over a national ruling.

A recent CBS News poll found that while 60 percent of Americans thought same-sex marriage should be legal, 56 percent, including more than three-quarters of Republicans, believed the decision should be left up to individual states. A McClatchy/Marist survey last year found that while half of Americans thought federal law should decide the legality of same-sex marriage, just 36 percent of Republicans agreed.

And in an AP-GfK survey earlier this year, Americans were evenly split on whether the Supreme Court should rule that same-sex marriage must be legal nationwide.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 24 2015 08:13 GMT
#37482
On April 24 2015 09:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
If you redefine demos to mean not "the people", but "the elite group of people that you have redefined to be the people" then anything is a democracy. Hell, Mugabe is a democratic! He and his cronies (we will now call this "the people", or demos) chose him and rigged all elections since the 80s to reflect that!

You do realize that our modern definition of democracy means something other than "government chosen by election, no matter how unfair", right?


Technically, a democracy is a really broad term and Millitron is right.

However, it's all a pretty useless act of semantics, since "democracy" entails a specific set of ideals in contemporary political discourse.
Which is to say, today it employs a rather amorphous set of ideals centered around a good connotation for the term. See the controversy around Bush's Democracy Project. See the regimes already mentioned that had free or mostly free elections and chose clever dictators or maniacal terrorist governments. It's a western nicety that free peoples pick from the scale of liberty and security. Political discourse makes the very term a contradiction of desired outcomes and means--you might even heap it into the trend of sound-bite words losing their meanings.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
April 24 2015 10:40 GMT
#37483
On April 24 2015 09:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2015 04:48 Acrofales wrote:
China is a democracy? Lol. No. China is an oligarchy.

Let's be honest with ourselves.

The U.S. isn't much better.

Uh, yes it is. The U.S. political system has plenty of flaws, but it's still much better than China, which isn't a democracy at all.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
April 24 2015 12:02 GMT
#37484
On April 24 2015 19:40 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2015 09:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On April 24 2015 04:48 Acrofales wrote:
China is a democracy? Lol. No. China is an oligarchy.

Let's be honest with ourselves.

The U.S. isn't much better.

Uh, yes it is. The U.S. political system has plenty of flaws, but it's still much better than China, which isn't a democracy at all.


I meant much better than an oligarchy, not much better than China. Should've made that more clear.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 24 2015 12:12 GMT
#37485
lol ok
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 24 2015 14:35 GMT
#37486
So what are people's thoughts on this Hillary Clinton news? There's no smoking gun at this point, only correlation. Is it just that the Clinton Foundation is a taker of money from all over the place and a Sec State deals with people all over the place? Or is it a real scandal?
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
April 24 2015 15:06 GMT
#37487
On April 24 2015 23:35 Doodsmack wrote:
So what are people's thoughts on this Hillary Clinton news? There's no smoking gun at this point, only correlation. Is it just that the Clinton Foundation is a taker of money from all over the place and a Sec State deals with people all over the place? Or is it a real scandal?


I'd say there are 3 questions and I'll give my take.

1. Was there quid pro quo corruption. 90% Yes.
2. Can that be proven? 90% No. (Those "private" emails between her and Bill would go a long way here).
3. Will the Democrats shield her enough and paint this as a witchhunt enough that she is still a viable candidate? 75% Yes.
Freeeeeeedom
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 24 2015 15:15 GMT
#37488
Its so hard to tell with political candidates now a days. Both the Clintons owed a lot of money after her failed bid and she became Sec of State soon after. It could have just been Bill jacking his fees to make that money back and nothing more. And the email thing seems like a mess, but not one that was created out of malice or an intent to hid things.

I think the Republicans are very worried about her getting the nomination. There must be some very convincing numbers and models out there on the amount of female voters she would pull.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 24 2015 15:21 GMT
#37489
i think it is a real scandal but it is also standard practice almost. lobbying from foreign govts isnt exclusive to either party. it is the job of internal counterintelligence to probe the exact nature of these ties.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
April 24 2015 15:24 GMT
#37490
I think a lot of non-Republicans are very worried about Clinton getting the nomination. Too bad the GOP is just as bat-shit crazy as it was in 2008/2012, and have no real alternatives to offer.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-24 15:34:16
April 24 2015 15:33 GMT
#37491
The republican field is going to be some mix of moderates with a few headline catching unmitigated nightmare social conservatives/”I will destroy the federal reserve” Conservatives. With a healthy mix of "I have no idea how government/anything works". The Daily show will have unlimited material.

I really want there to be a Republican candidate I can get behind, but I doubt it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 24 2015 16:06 GMT
#37492
That hope died when Huntsman couldn't win a primary due to being too sane on topics such as Respecting the president, diplomacy and not war etc.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 24 2015 16:12 GMT
#37493
On April 24 2015 23:35 Doodsmack wrote:
So what are people's thoughts on this Hillary Clinton news? There's no smoking gun at this point, only correlation. Is it just that the Clinton Foundation is a taker of money from all over the place and a Sec State deals with people all over the place? Or is it a real scandal?

Hillary's problem is that polls are now consistently showing that a majority of Americans do not trust her. That's not going to translate well to the general election. I think democrats would be well-served to chuck her overboard again.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 24 2015 16:35 GMT
#37494
On April 25 2015 01:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
That hope died when Huntsman couldn't win a primary due to being too sane on topics such as Respecting the president, diplomacy and not war etc.

Disrespecting the president, claiming you loath government while also saying you love America is how you win Republican primaries these days. It also helps if you mock education and the word “compromise”.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 24 2015 16:36 GMT
#37495
On April 24 2015 07:35 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2015 07:17 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 07:07 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 24 2015 07:00 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:38 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:13 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:07 Millitron wrote:
On April 24 2015 05:33 Acrofales wrote:
[quote]
No, it would be like having direct elections to appoint the city council, who in turn elects the county council who in turn elects state government, which elects the congress. The influence the democratic aspect of this process has on the outcome in congress is negligible, and it is basically a network that can is a mix of oligarchy and meritocracy (it is possible for rising stars to make a difference, as long as they fit within the one-party system).

How much influence do we really have though, when both parties are basically the same on most issues?

It doesn't really matter who you elect when both options are the same.

On April 24 2015 05:21 puerk wrote:
[quote]

fixed that for you

I said it wasn't fair. I didn't say it was a great democracy. But it was a democracy.


If you redefine demos to mean not "the people", but "the elite group of people that you have redefined to be the people" then anything is a democracy. Hell, Mugabe is a democratic! He and his cronies (we will now call this "the people", or demos) chose him and rigged all elections since the 80s to reflect that!

You do realize that our modern definition of democracy means something other than "government chosen by election, no matter how unfair", right?

People that define democracy like that are the same vein of people that refuse to use the word "communism" for anything except the pipe-dream that theorists and philosophers write about.

It's a useless definition that only serves to prop up some false ideals about how things should be.

Huh? You have a pretty good democracy in the US. I think the democracy in Brazil is an actual democracy too (although you can always question whether the people who are elected are actually in power at all). You can argue the merits of a direct and indirect system. However, there comes a point where it is simply no longer a democracy, even if the local government claims otherwise. South Africa during Apartheid was a democracy for about 10% of the population. That isn't a democracy. It's an oligarchy. Claiming otherwise voids the meaning of the word democracy. As does calling China's government a democracy, or anywhere (including the US) before universal suffrage.

I mean, you can certainly argue that current and historical democracies had severe issues with equality of their citizens, and the right to vote being only a representation of a specific group of people. But saying it's not a real democracy is falling straight into the whole "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Even if things like women's voting rights, and democratic rights of minorities, only really came into being in the mid 20th century, you're going to have a very, very hard time arguing that the Western democracy didn't begin in 18th century Europe.

Okay. Name a democracy in 18th century Europe.

It definitely had its roots there, and you could argue that there are many forms of governments that incorporate democratic elements... but The Netherlands (probably the country you are thinking of) was not a democracy in the 18th century despite being a republic, and the UK certainly wasn't despite having a Parliament.

Read: No true Scotsman fallacy.


So name one.

Corsica, until they were invaded.

France, following the revolution, even though it did fall to pieces quite quickly. There's a reason why the government established in the mid 19th century was called the Second Republic.


And of course the British Parliament and American government, which you've already dismissed as being not real democracies.

haven't read all of your discussion but did you really invoke no true scotsman when it comes to calling china a democracy? there's reason why it's only an informal fallacy, please do not invoke it as substitution for real discussion.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 24 2015 16:51 GMT
#37496
Last year, Rep. Bill Shuster approached fellow Republican Rep. Tom Graves with a request. The powerful Transportation and Infrastructure Committee chairman wanted to take over Graves’ moribund Travel Transparency Act, an industry-friendly bill that would allow airlines to advertise the base price of a ticket without including fees and taxes.

The bill had gone nowhere under Graves (R-Ga.) — it didn’t even muster a hearing in committee. Once the Pennsylvania congressman took over, though, it moved at lightning speed: He introduced a revised version of the bill in March of last year, the same day he met with an airline industry group that supported it. A month later, Shuster shepherded the measure through his transportation panel in roughly 10 minutes. It sailed through the full House three months later without a roll call vote.

The legislation wasn’t only a priority for Shuster: It was a top issue for Airlines for America, and for Shuster’s girlfriend, Shelley Rubino, the organization’s vice president and a top airline lobbyist. Shuster’s panel oversees the airline industry, and Rubino’s group spends millions of dollars lobbying Congress on behalf of major U.S. airlines. Rubino herself lobbied for the legislation, according to disclosure forms.

Shuster’s relationship with Rubino was disclosed last week by POLITICO, but at the time the legislation was going through the House, it was being kept secret. His relationship with her — and his dealings with her employer — have raised new questions about Shuster’s advocacy on behalf of the airline industry. The ties go beyond Shuster and Rubino: The wife of Shuster’s chief of staff is a top executive for Airlines for America, which is known as A4A. And the congressman recently hired an A4A lobbyist to run the committee’s aviation panel.

Both Shuster and Rubino moved swiftly last spring to get the revised Transparent Airfares Act of 2014 across the finish line. The industry group worked with Shuster on tweaking the bill. Shuster and A4A used nearly identical graphics to promote the legislation. And Shuster’s verbiage on the House floor was strikingly similar to A4A’s talking points.

A year later, Graves says he has no idea why his bill was ignored before Shuster took it over. “I don’t know the answer to that. I really don’t."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
April 24 2015 18:30 GMT
#37497
What a crock of shit that is. Pennsylvania Republicans strike again!
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
April 24 2015 19:14 GMT
#37498
On April 25 2015 01:36 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2015 07:35 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 24 2015 07:17 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 07:07 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 24 2015 07:00 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:38 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:13 Acrofales wrote:
On April 24 2015 06:07 Millitron wrote:
[quote]
How much influence do we really have though, when both parties are basically the same on most issues?

It doesn't really matter who you elect when both options are the same.

[quote]
I said it wasn't fair. I didn't say it was a great democracy. But it was a democracy.


If you redefine demos to mean not "the people", but "the elite group of people that you have redefined to be the people" then anything is a democracy. Hell, Mugabe is a democratic! He and his cronies (we will now call this "the people", or demos) chose him and rigged all elections since the 80s to reflect that!

You do realize that our modern definition of democracy means something other than "government chosen by election, no matter how unfair", right?

People that define democracy like that are the same vein of people that refuse to use the word "communism" for anything except the pipe-dream that theorists and philosophers write about.

It's a useless definition that only serves to prop up some false ideals about how things should be.

Huh? You have a pretty good democracy in the US. I think the democracy in Brazil is an actual democracy too (although you can always question whether the people who are elected are actually in power at all). You can argue the merits of a direct and indirect system. However, there comes a point where it is simply no longer a democracy, even if the local government claims otherwise. South Africa during Apartheid was a democracy for about 10% of the population. That isn't a democracy. It's an oligarchy. Claiming otherwise voids the meaning of the word democracy. As does calling China's government a democracy, or anywhere (including the US) before universal suffrage.

I mean, you can certainly argue that current and historical democracies had severe issues with equality of their citizens, and the right to vote being only a representation of a specific group of people. But saying it's not a real democracy is falling straight into the whole "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Even if things like women's voting rights, and democratic rights of minorities, only really came into being in the mid 20th century, you're going to have a very, very hard time arguing that the Western democracy didn't begin in 18th century Europe.

Okay. Name a democracy in 18th century Europe.

It definitely had its roots there, and you could argue that there are many forms of governments that incorporate democratic elements... but The Netherlands (probably the country you are thinking of) was not a democracy in the 18th century despite being a republic, and the UK certainly wasn't despite having a Parliament.

Read: No true Scotsman fallacy.


So name one.

Corsica, until they were invaded.

France, following the revolution, even though it did fall to pieces quite quickly. There's a reason why the government established in the mid 19th century was called the Second Republic.


And of course the British Parliament and American government, which you've already dismissed as being not real democracies.

haven't read all of your discussion but did you really invoke no true scotsman when it comes to calling china a democracy? there's reason why it's only an informal fallacy, please do not invoke it as substitution for real discussion.

No, not for China for specifically. Some of 18th-19th century America and Europe, yes, as well as several present day nations that have shadier politics.

Just because land owners are the only voters, or if a nation still had slavery, or if women don't have rights, doesn't stop a nation from being a democracy. If you're pulling out the "it's not a democracy because it doesn't live up to the ideals I think that word means", then that's basically the "no true Scotsman" fallacy verbatim.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Velocirapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States983 Posts
April 24 2015 23:46 GMT
#37499
Maybe I have been checked out but I don't see Hilary as all that controversial. I was pretty young during the Clinton administration but I remember most women being incredibly sympathetic about the whole philandering husband thing. I heard very little about her work as a senator and she seemed overshadowed by Barack while secretary of state.

I remember when she first ran the major complaint was that she had no real experience (FLOTUS doesn't count). Now she has experience and I still know nothing about her that screams incompetent or crazy. Unless being a completely vanilla moderate democrat is a big deal now.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 25 2015 00:00 GMT
#37500
WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama made a surprise appearance in a media conference call with Labor Secretary Tom Perez on Friday to push back on what he called "dishonest" criticism from progressives — apparently including Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) — that the Trans-Pacific Partnership was a "secret" deal.

"What I am averse to is a bunch of ad hominem attacks and misinformation that stirs up the base but ultimately doesn't serve them well. And I'm going to be pushing back very hard if I keep hearing that stuff," Obama told a small group of reporters on the call.

Of all the criticisms, "The one that gets on my nerves the most is the notion that this is a secret deal," he said. "Every single one of the critics saying this is a secret deal, or send out e-mails to their fundraising base that they're working to stop a secret deal, could walk over and see the text of the agreement."

Obama didn't mention Warren by name, but he didn't have to. Two days ago Warren sent her supporters a fundraising email to whip up opposition to fast-tracking a trade deal. "The government doesn't want you to read this massive new trade agreement," Warren wrote. "It’s top secret."

The president noted that the text of the TPP has been available "for weeks." He said some components are still being negotiated and that Congress will have months to review it and decide whether or not to approve the deal.

Obama's remarks were a fierce rebuttal to progressives, who have been pounding him for pursuing the TPP agreement and have been tapping into the deep reservoir of liberal skepticism toward global trade deals.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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