|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On April 15 2015 10:03 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:52 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2015 09:50 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:48 IgnE wrote:
You can still get the minor operation if your insurance denies the claim. You just have to pay yourself. Unless you're a 2% or 1%, that's pretty much out of the question, at least financially. Still no different from the US And this is why US's healthcare system is fucking dumb. lol. though I suspect it would be less dumb if average income in the US was a lot higher, along with changes in spending culture, but that's somewhat low on the list of reasons why US healthcare system isn't working. I mean, ideally millitron's ideal healthcare system would be mirror the free market plastic surgery, and surgical cosmetic industry of South Korea, where procedures are extremely cheap due to strong free market competition, the problem is, even with such competitive market, it's still limited to lower middle class and up to afford these procedures. Exactly. Like I've said a few times now though, I just don't like this half-and-half system that the ACA is. It's the worst of both worlds. You've got the rationing and taxation of a single payer system with none of the bargaining power. Single-payer or a strong free market a la SK would both be acceptable.
I could have sworn a couple hundred posts ago you were against single payer.
|
On April 15 2015 13:49 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 10:03 Millitron wrote:On April 15 2015 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:52 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2015 09:50 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:48 IgnE wrote:
You can still get the minor operation if your insurance denies the claim. You just have to pay yourself. Unless you're a 2% or 1%, that's pretty much out of the question, at least financially. Still no different from the US And this is why US's healthcare system is fucking dumb. lol. though I suspect it would be less dumb if average income in the US was a lot higher, along with changes in spending culture, but that's somewhat low on the list of reasons why US healthcare system isn't working. I mean, ideally millitron's ideal healthcare system would be mirror the free market plastic surgery, and surgical cosmetic industry of South Korea, where procedures are extremely cheap due to strong free market competition, the problem is, even with such competitive market, it's still limited to lower middle class and up to afford these procedures. Exactly. Like I've said a few times now though, I just don't like this half-and-half system that the ACA is. It's the worst of both worlds. You've got the rationing and taxation of a single payer system with none of the bargaining power. Single-payer or a strong free market a la SK would both be acceptable. I could have sworn a couple hundred posts ago you were against single payer.
well he also thinks SK has a free market
https://www.med.or.jp/english/journal/pdf/2009_03/206_209.pdf
|
On April 15 2015 13:54 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 13:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On April 15 2015 10:03 Millitron wrote:On April 15 2015 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:52 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2015 09:50 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:48 IgnE wrote:
You can still get the minor operation if your insurance denies the claim. You just have to pay yourself. Unless you're a 2% or 1%, that's pretty much out of the question, at least financially. Still no different from the US And this is why US's healthcare system is fucking dumb. lol. though I suspect it would be less dumb if average income in the US was a lot higher, along with changes in spending culture, but that's somewhat low on the list of reasons why US healthcare system isn't working. I mean, ideally millitron's ideal healthcare system would be mirror the free market plastic surgery, and surgical cosmetic industry of South Korea, where procedures are extremely cheap due to strong free market competition, the problem is, even with such competitive market, it's still limited to lower middle class and up to afford these procedures. Exactly. Like I've said a few times now though, I just don't like this half-and-half system that the ACA is. It's the worst of both worlds. You've got the rationing and taxation of a single payer system with none of the bargaining power. Single-payer or a strong free market a la SK would both be acceptable. I could have sworn a couple hundred posts ago you were against single payer. well he also thinks SK has a free market https://www.med.or.jp/english/journal/pdf/2009_03/206_209.pdf
was strictly talking about their plastic surgery market. it's well known that they have one of the cheapest markets for plastic surgery, which include a lot of invasive surgical procedures, that require similar equipment, yet they've been able to keep costs fairly affordable in a price range that is acceptable for most of their population.
|
Yeah but this works because of the high demand and high competition. The demand for treating rare disease or performing unusual surgery isnt that high, so there is no reason why those would be affordable for avarage Joe (or Kim).
|
Plastic surgery has like nohting to do with "Healthcare" (except for burn victims and similar problems, but in the grand scheme of things these are neglible).
Plastical surgeons/Treatments are, in most cases, more comparable with chosing your hairdresser or tattoo artist than getting medical Treatment...
And yeah, "free market" works there (goverment just has to care about savety standards and education of the performing surgeons... Like it does in basically any industry)
|
On April 15 2015 15:04 Velr wrote:
Plastic surgery has like nohting to do with "Healthcare" (except for burn victims and similar problems, but in the grand scheme of things these are neglible).
Plastical surgeons/Treatments are, in most cases, more comparable with chosing your hairdresser or tattoo artist than getting medical Treatment...
And yeah, "free market" works there (goverment just has to care about savety standards and education of the performing surgeons... Like it does in basically any industry)
I dare you say that to a plastic surgeon.
And like I said, I was talking about invasive surgeries as well, while definitely more costly than the usual botox injections, are still affordable in Korea.
|
Why?
I'm talking about invasive surgery too.
All he does is "Body Cosmetics/Tuning". He is, most of the time, not a healthcare provider, the Tattoo "Artist" is an excellent analogy.
That doesn't make his Job "bad", "low profile" or "easy", he's still a surgeon/doctor and had to stuy his ass off for it...
Healtcare is Healthcare because it is about actual health and thats why the state (the people) has an interest in providing this, the state couldn't care less about the size of your But, Boobs or Lips (well, aside from obesity) and the reason is that these are not health related issues (well.. they are imho often a sign for psychological issues or plain stupidity... But thats just me and not the point at all :p).
|
plastic surgeons are like the investment bankers of medicine. pretty smart, worked hard, and they're totally in it for the money. there's a few who do great reconstructive and prosthetic work (though i guess you'd call them real surgeons) though.
|
On April 15 2015 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 13:54 puerk wrote:On April 15 2015 13:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On April 15 2015 10:03 Millitron wrote:On April 15 2015 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:52 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2015 09:50 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:48 IgnE wrote:
You can still get the minor operation if your insurance denies the claim. You just have to pay yourself. Unless you're a 2% or 1%, that's pretty much out of the question, at least financially. Still no different from the US And this is why US's healthcare system is fucking dumb. lol. though I suspect it would be less dumb if average income in the US was a lot higher, along with changes in spending culture, but that's somewhat low on the list of reasons why US healthcare system isn't working. I mean, ideally millitron's ideal healthcare system would be mirror the free market plastic surgery, and surgical cosmetic industry of South Korea, where procedures are extremely cheap due to strong free market competition, the problem is, even with such competitive market, it's still limited to lower middle class and up to afford these procedures. Exactly. Like I've said a few times now though, I just don't like this half-and-half system that the ACA is. It's the worst of both worlds. You've got the rationing and taxation of a single payer system with none of the bargaining power. Single-payer or a strong free market a la SK would both be acceptable. I could have sworn a couple hundred posts ago you were against single payer. well he also thinks SK has a free market https://www.med.or.jp/english/journal/pdf/2009_03/206_209.pdf was strictly talking about their plastic surgery market. it's well known that they have one of the cheapest markets for plastic surgery, which include a lot of invasive surgical procedures, that require similar equipment, yet they've been able to keep costs fairly affordable in a price range that is acceptable for most of their population.
i was talking about the last post from millitron in that chain who obviously didnt get that your example was faux and useless...
plastic surgery is elective, the position "not to buy" is actually viable, which makes market forces able to work
healthcare is not on a rational level elective, as the consequences of not getting it are usually either not calculatable or outright unacceptable
|
On April 15 2015 15:49 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 14:11 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 13:54 puerk wrote:On April 15 2015 13:49 ticklishmusic wrote:On April 15 2015 10:03 Millitron wrote:On April 15 2015 09:54 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:52 Gorsameth wrote:On April 15 2015 09:50 wei2coolman wrote:On April 15 2015 09:48 IgnE wrote:
You can still get the minor operation if your insurance denies the claim. You just have to pay yourself. Unless you're a 2% or 1%, that's pretty much out of the question, at least financially. Still no different from the US And this is why US's healthcare system is fucking dumb. lol. though I suspect it would be less dumb if average income in the US was a lot higher, along with changes in spending culture, but that's somewhat low on the list of reasons why US healthcare system isn't working. I mean, ideally millitron's ideal healthcare system would be mirror the free market plastic surgery, and surgical cosmetic industry of South Korea, where procedures are extremely cheap due to strong free market competition, the problem is, even with such competitive market, it's still limited to lower middle class and up to afford these procedures. Exactly. Like I've said a few times now though, I just don't like this half-and-half system that the ACA is. It's the worst of both worlds. You've got the rationing and taxation of a single payer system with none of the bargaining power. Single-payer or a strong free market a la SK would both be acceptable. I could have sworn a couple hundred posts ago you were against single payer. well he also thinks SK has a free market https://www.med.or.jp/english/journal/pdf/2009_03/206_209.pdf was strictly talking about their plastic surgery market. it's well known that they have one of the cheapest markets for plastic surgery, which include a lot of invasive surgical procedures, that require similar equipment, yet they've been able to keep costs fairly affordable in a price range that is acceptable for most of their population. i was talking about the last post from millitron in that chain who obviously didnt get that your example was faux and useless... plastic surgery is elective, the position "not to buy" is actually viable, which makes market forces able to work healthcare is not on a rational level elective, as the consequences of not getting it are usually either not calculatable or outright unacceptable
No, but it does give us a somewhat realistic metric of how cheap basic out patient surgeries could be given a free market model, in which ideally there are a variety of providers for consumers to select from.
|
You really can't compare the market for cosmetic surgery to that for healthcare surgery, though. And i find this believe in a "free market" that solves all problems with healthcare weird. It is at best a very theoretical idea, and as far as i know not one that has ever been tested in a modern country. I guess if your country wants to volunteer as some sort of ideological experiment, that is up to you, but a much more rational choice would be going with things that are proven to work and which do not have many overly negative consequences.
My trust in the free market solving problems in a socially acceptable manner is not very high in general, and especially in a system where you will necessarily have at least local monopolies (If you are in the emergency room with a heart attack, are you really going to drive across the city because the other hospital would be better?) and where the choice not to buy is not one that the consumer can make. Anarcho-capitalism has never really worked in any situation, and i see no reason as to why that would be different in healthcare, and if find this weird complete trust in a completely unproven concept in some of the american population very mysterious.
|
Getting transported after immediate care is also just a stupid idea... If you don't have Money to burn that is.
|
On April 15 2015 10:36 coverpunch wrote:
Rather than just be rankings bitches or arguing about the philosophy of medical treatments, how many of you guys have ever actually paid for surgeries or significant medical treatment? It would help if any of you had such experience in more than one country in terms of their health care systems.
Never, a single dime, for anything. Neither surgeries (not many, appendectomy, broken arm, wisdomteeth removed), nor medical treatments, although i don't really know what you consider significant. I had quite the journey because of my cluster headaches, including scans, weeks in a "headache-hospital (clinicum for neurology)", different treatments like oxygen bottles, a years supply of zolmitriptane - stuff like that. Oh and, when i was younger (12 actually), visits to a health resort (Borkum) for bronchial Asthma (4 times). Same for my mother, coming to think of it.
All paid by insurance, and i wouldn't consider switching to the US system for a nanosecond. It has absolutely nothing over europes systems, apart from being able to generate more money for certain people. In terms of actual health care, yeah, no.
Btw because it was mentioned earlier, ER stuff doesn't cost you anything over here either, apart from if you actually didn't need it (if you cut your finger slightly, and call the ambulance - yes, then you'll pay for it).
|
Yeah, in general Singapore is about as "conservative" (in the general usage here) as it gets and they have a mixed system of private money and public provision. The public provision is just strong enough to avoid private doctors and pharmaceutical companies from becoming too strong a lobby, while the private system is just rich enough to divert some patients and save public costs.
But the Singaporean model, even you accepted it as a good model, would be tough to export. A small, rich, Confucian city-state with high levels of public discipline and conscientiousness has many qualities you can't find in other parts of the OECD because other governments would refuse to impose them and citizens would refuse to accept them. Of course, that isn't stopping a lot of posters around here from suggesting the US impose changes similar to European countries...
|
On April 15 2015 17:13 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 10:36 coverpunch wrote:
Rather than just be rankings bitches or arguing about the philosophy of medical treatments, how many of you guys have ever actually paid for surgeries or significant medical treatment? It would help if any of you had such experience in more than one country in terms of their health care systems. Never, a single dime, for anything. Neither surgeries (not many, appendectomy, broken arm, wisdomteeth removed), nor medical treatments, although i don't really know what you consider significant. I had quite the journey because of my cluster headaches, including scans, weeks in a "headache-hospital (clinicum for neurology)", different treatments like oxygen bottles, a years supply of zolmitriptane - stuff like that. Oh and, when i was younger (12 actually), visits to a health resort (Borkum) for bronchial Asthma (4 times). Same for my mother, coming to think of it. All paid by insurance, and i wouldn't consider switching to the US system for a nanosecond. It has absolutely nothing over europes systems, apart from being able to generate more money for certain people. In terms of actual health care, yeah, no. Btw because it was mentioned earlier, ER stuff doesn't cost you anything over here either, apart from if you actually didn't need it (if you cut your finger slightly, and call the ambulance - yes, then you'll pay for it).
Where is "here" for you?
|
On April 15 2015 17:18 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 17:13 m4ini wrote:On April 15 2015 10:36 coverpunch wrote:
Rather than just be rankings bitches or arguing about the philosophy of medical treatments, how many of you guys have ever actually paid for surgeries or significant medical treatment? It would help if any of you had such experience in more than one country in terms of their health care systems. Never, a single dime, for anything. Neither surgeries (not many, appendectomy, broken arm, wisdomteeth removed), nor medical treatments, although i don't really know what you consider significant. I had quite the journey because of my cluster headaches, including scans, weeks in a "headache-hospital (clinicum for neurology)", different treatments like oxygen bottles, a years supply of zolmitriptane - stuff like that. Oh and, when i was younger (12 actually), visits to a health resort (Borkum) for bronchial Asthma (4 times). Same for my mother, coming to think of it. All paid by insurance, and i wouldn't consider switching to the US system for a nanosecond. It has absolutely nothing over europes systems, apart from being able to generate more money for certain people. In terms of actual health care, yeah, no. Btw because it was mentioned earlier, ER stuff doesn't cost you anything over here either, apart from if you actually didn't need it (if you cut your finger slightly, and call the ambulance - yes, then you'll pay for it). Where is "here" for you?
Germany, as i said a couple of pages back already.
edit: and i can comment on the NHS, but only for minor stuff (UK).
|
On April 15 2015 17:32 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 17:18 coverpunch wrote:On April 15 2015 17:13 m4ini wrote:On April 15 2015 10:36 coverpunch wrote:
Rather than just be rankings bitches or arguing about the philosophy of medical treatments, how many of you guys have ever actually paid for surgeries or significant medical treatment? It would help if any of you had such experience in more than one country in terms of their health care systems. Never, a single dime, for anything. Neither surgeries (not many, appendectomy, broken arm, wisdomteeth removed), nor medical treatments, although i don't really know what you consider significant. I had quite the journey because of my cluster headaches, including scans, weeks in a "headache-hospital (clinicum for neurology)", different treatments like oxygen bottles, a years supply of zolmitriptane - stuff like that. Oh and, when i was younger (12 actually), visits to a health resort (Borkum) for bronchial Asthma (4 times). Same for my mother, coming to think of it. All paid by insurance, and i wouldn't consider switching to the US system for a nanosecond. It has absolutely nothing over europes systems, apart from being able to generate more money for certain people. In terms of actual health care, yeah, no. Btw because it was mentioned earlier, ER stuff doesn't cost you anything over here either, apart from if you actually didn't need it (if you cut your finger slightly, and call the ambulance - yes, then you'll pay for it). Where is "here" for you? Germany, as i said a couple of pages back already. edit: and i can comment on the NHS, but only for minor stuff (UK).
I remember having to pay 10€ for going to the doctor at some point, i don't actually know if that is still in place because i haven't been sick for a long time (I should probably go to checkups more often, i need to look up what kind of regular checkups you are supposed to have even if you don't feel sick). There was a really big controversy regarding this idea.
Also, i recently needed to pay ~100€ for dentistry because i had been a fool and hadn't been to dentist checkups for a few years, and had developed a small caries that needed to be fixed (And dentistry is usually not free).
The time i had an infection from some random wood splinter and needed to be in hospital for a week with intravenous treatments (I am pretty sure the doctor doing the checkup was looking very carefully for needle marks in case i was a junkie), i didn't pay a cent. Neither did my brother the time he broke his leg, or my grandmother when she needed a new hip. Neither did my father when he broke some bone skiing (Though that was quite weird because he broke it in Norway on his last day and the doctors there just kinda said he should go back to Germany to be treated, but i think the reason for that was that they thought it would be better if he got the treatment at home instead of having to stay in Norway for weeks, and it wasn't serious enough for him to not just travel with it.)
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the 'when you are sick you are fucked and thus have no choice' thing doesn't make healthcare not a market per se. it just makes it a risk market. you either use insurance or a more controlled system to provide service.
|
On April 15 2015 18:12 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 17:32 m4ini wrote:On April 15 2015 17:18 coverpunch wrote:On April 15 2015 17:13 m4ini wrote:On April 15 2015 10:36 coverpunch wrote:
Rather than just be rankings bitches or arguing about the philosophy of medical treatments, how many of you guys have ever actually paid for surgeries or significant medical treatment? It would help if any of you had such experience in more than one country in terms of their health care systems. Never, a single dime, for anything. Neither surgeries (not many, appendectomy, broken arm, wisdomteeth removed), nor medical treatments, although i don't really know what you consider significant. I had quite the journey because of my cluster headaches, including scans, weeks in a "headache-hospital (clinicum for neurology)", different treatments like oxygen bottles, a years supply of zolmitriptane - stuff like that. Oh and, when i was younger (12 actually), visits to a health resort (Borkum) for bronchial Asthma (4 times). Same for my mother, coming to think of it. All paid by insurance, and i wouldn't consider switching to the US system for a nanosecond. It has absolutely nothing over europes systems, apart from being able to generate more money for certain people. In terms of actual health care, yeah, no. Btw because it was mentioned earlier, ER stuff doesn't cost you anything over here either, apart from if you actually didn't need it (if you cut your finger slightly, and call the ambulance - yes, then you'll pay for it). Where is "here" for you? Germany, as i said a couple of pages back already. edit: and i can comment on the NHS, but only for minor stuff (UK). I remember having to pay 10€ for going to the doctor at some point, i don't actually know if that is still in place because i haven't been sick for a long time (I should probably go to checkups more often, i need to look up what kind of regular checkups you are supposed to have even if you don't feel sick). There was a really big controversy regarding this idea.
You don't need any regular check-ups if healthy and have no symptoms. I would recommend considering a yearly blood-pressure/cholesterol measurement if you are @40+. Generally speaking, screenings have proven largely ineffective (in fact the screening for colon cancer has actually proven to be detrimental although it is hugely controversial and more and more countries instigate screening-programs despite because politicians want to look like they care about health).
|
I remember having to pay 10€ for going to the doctor at some point, i don't actually know if that is still in place because i haven't been sick for a long time (I should probably go to checkups more often, i need to look up what kind of regular checkups you are supposed to have even if you don't feel sick). There was a really big controversy regarding this idea.
Also, i recently needed to pay ~100€ for dentistry because i had been a fool and hadn't been to dentist checkups for a few years, and had developed a small caries that needed to be fixed (And dentistry is usually not free).
The 10 Euros i actually forgot (what was it, every 3 months?). But it's gone since 2013 again (was only what, a year or two?).
My dentiststuff was covered, never had to pay anything apart from an anesthesy (not sure how it's spelled), and that's because i wanted to have it for a more or less "standard procedure". There wasn't a need for me to be blacked out apart from me simply wanting to be blacked out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
