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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
March 25 2015 18:42 GMT
#35281
On March 26 2015 03:37 Nyxisto wrote:The 'armed population' logic relies on the assumption that this can actually never happen and that the majority of people is always at least decently reasonable.

+ courageus, steadfast, informed, trained, connected, motivated, efficient and morally conscious....
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 25 2015 18:43 GMT
#35282
On March 26 2015 03:42 puerk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 03:37 Nyxisto wrote:The 'armed population' logic relies on the assumption that this can actually never happen and that the majority of people is always at least decently reasonable.

+ courageus, steadfast, informed, trained, connected, motivated, efficient and morally conscious....

u need to be LEM to bear arms.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32124 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-25 18:45:43
March 25 2015 18:45 GMT
#35283
On March 26 2015 03:37 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 03:31 QuanticHawk wrote:
On March 26 2015 02:01 Nyxisto wrote:
On March 26 2015 01:55 Millitron wrote:
On March 26 2015 01:45 Nyxisto wrote:
yes, I can already see the tanks rolling through London, what a shame the population wasn't armed. Where exactly in the first world exists any observable relation between government brutality and the number of weapons in circulation?

Just because you don't need them now doesn't mean you never will.

I'd think a poster from Germany would be more aware of what can happen when the populace is disarmed.


The German population supported the dictatorship. They didn't hold a gun to their heads. It was not the evil oppressive government vs the people who can't possibly be anything but brave and good, which is exactly the mindset this whole gun logic is build up on.

I don't exactly agree with the logic that an armed population would stop Nazi Germany from happening... but saying the German population supported the dictatorship is one hell of an overgeneralization of a layered topic

Do you think dissenters were welcomed with open arms or something?


Pretty much the only form of dissent originated from underground like movements, some Catholics, although even the church supported the NS regime locally in the beginning(think about how ridiculous this is). The overwhelming majority of the population was supportive or indifferent, there is no other way to explain how things could have happened on the scale they did. Jews were dragged to the streets, proclaimed to be race-traitors, lynched by hundreds of people. The gist of it is that yes, whole nations can go completely insane. Guns wouldn't have changed a thing. The 'armed population' logic relies on the assumption that this can actually never happen and that the majority of people is always at least decently reasonable.


my argument is not about whether guns would have changed anything. (personally, I am ok for restricted gun ownership, but this is a pretty stupid appeal for it)

My objection is that saying the population was largely for it is ridiculous because coming out against the Nazis meant your ass would be dragged out in the streets, beaten, and thrown in jail or worse
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-25 18:50:31
March 25 2015 18:49 GMT
#35284
No, they really thought that what the Nazi regime did was the right thing to do. Just like White Americans, for decades or centuries, were convinced that black people don't deserve rights and could be owned . Kwark posted a graph some while ago that showed that like 5% of the American population supported 'interracial marriage' in the 50's. Were they all just scared? Nope, they just were incredibly racist, like pretty much everybody else in the first half of the twentieth century.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-25 18:57:35
March 25 2015 18:57 GMT
#35285
On March 26 2015 03:49 Nyxisto wrote:
No, they really thought that what the Nazi regime did was the right thing to do. Just like White Americans, for decades or centuries, were convinced that black people don't deserve rights and could be owned . Kwark posted a graph some while ago that showed that like 5% of the American population supported 'interracial marriage' in the 50's. Were they all just scared? Nope, they just were incredibly racist, like pretty much everybody else in the first half of the twentieth century.

I share the general point of view but i think you are overstating it a bit. People did not in general think gasing jews, homosexuals, sinti and roma, and leftists was the right thing to do. It was in most of the general population more to the tune of: imprisoning them into work camps is not a bad thing to do (especially during wartime).
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23654 Posts
March 25 2015 19:01 GMT
#35286
On March 26 2015 01:28 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 01:20 calgar wrote:
On March 25 2015 14:36 PineapplePizza wrote:
Am I the only person here confused by the choice of Clinton for the democrats? She seems incredibly uninspiring.

Considering how close Romney got to Obama in 2012, the thought of such a weak pick going up against...even these clowns...is terrifying.
Yes, you are one of the only people confused. Why do you think she is weak? It's difficult to meaningfully discuss a candidate's strength so far from election day but if you want statistics then she is polling ahead of every single Republican candidate in every single poll that I have seen, many by large margins. That would make her a strong candidate by most people's definition.

Source:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/

The polls don't really tell the whole story though, because she's the only name the dems have right now, while the republicans have tons of possible choices. So, for now, the republican base is split among like 5 candidates while the dems only really have Hillary. Once the republican primaries are done, she won't have such a strong lead.


You do realize the polls where she beats republicans are head-to-head. So they have a choice of a Republican or Clinton and Clinton wins every time. I'm not a Clinton fan but she will easily be the lesser of two evils come election time. I obviously wouldn't support a Tea Party candidate who's Republican supporters want to make Christianity the official national religion. I don't see a huge difference between Jeb and Clinton though so that race is still the best shot for Jeb. I think Cruz is helping Jeb by pulling the other conservatives so far right they are unelectable. Jeb will get all the moderates/independentish to himself and the rest will have to split the smaller half of the far right.

I said from the beginning that conservatives had to pick a guy and rally EARLY. Ted Cruz getting out before Walker officially announced means now Walker has to win back support from whats going to be a more radically right representative in Cruz.

Cruz is effectively destroying Walkers chances. Walker is going to look like a liberal next to Cruz's rhetoric which will siphon off just enough from Walker to give Bush the win. Particularly when you add in Paul taking all the young republicans and libertarians. Jeb is the only one with a large enough Republican coalition to win. The choice for republicans is how much you want to beat him up before the general, not whether he's there or not.

Again it will be Republicans own fault they get Jeb. The irony is if Republicans win the next presidential, it will be despite their best efforts rather than because of them.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32124 Posts
March 25 2015 19:13 GMT
#35287
On March 26 2015 03:49 Nyxisto wrote:
No, they really thought that what the Nazi regime did was the right thing to do. Just like White Americans, for decades or centuries, were convinced that black people don't deserve rights and could be owned . Kwark posted a graph some while ago that showed that like 5% of the American population supported 'interracial marriage' in the 50's. Were they all just scared? Nope, they just were incredibly racist, like pretty much everybody else in the first half of the twentieth century.

You are missing my point.

Yes, there were people who genuinely thought all that shit that went on was a-ok. The Nazi party also made it a point to actively stomp out opposition, political and individual, and did it in a way to intimidate anyone else into compliance.

My point is that state-sponsored violence against opposition tends to have a pretty profound effect on your views. Hence why I object to the very generalized statement of most Germans being for what happened. It's a shitty oversimplication of what happened.

On March 25 2015 20:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
seems like a pretty done deal that it's gonna be clinton.. bill's popularity has never been higher has it? he's gonna win it for her I feel.


I see it far from being a done deal. I know a ton of dems who hate her (I couldn't stand her myself and registered Dem after being independent for years just to vote against her in primaries... and I liked Obama more at the time).

The right hates her, she's pretty divisive among her own established base, she's about as politician as it gets (household name because of who she married and she hasn't found a vote she won't sell her soul for).

Coming off of 8 years of democrat rule, especially when Obama came in as a saint who could do no wrong and slid to a point where he has started to alienate some of his own core, I think the party could stand to pick a better candidate. It reminds me of when the Dems were facing a weak ass Bush after his first term, everyone hated him, and they trotted out fucking Kerry.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18218 Posts
March 25 2015 20:42 GMT
#35288
On March 26 2015 01:28 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 01:20 calgar wrote:
On March 25 2015 14:36 PineapplePizza wrote:
Am I the only person here confused by the choice of Clinton for the democrats? She seems incredibly uninspiring.

Considering how close Romney got to Obama in 2012, the thought of such a weak pick going up against...even these clowns...is terrifying.
Yes, you are one of the only people confused. Why do you think she is weak? It's difficult to meaningfully discuss a candidate's strength so far from election day but if you want statistics then she is polling ahead of every single Republican candidate in every single poll that I have seen, many by large margins. That would make her a strong candidate by most people's definition.

Source:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/

The polls don't really tell the whole story though, because she's the only name the dems have right now, while the republicans have tons of possible choices. So, for now, the republican base is split among like 5 candidates while the dems only really have Hillary. Once the republican primaries are done, she won't have such a strong lead.

That isn't how polls work, though. Polls work by asking: who would you vote for Hillary or X? Where X is the candidate the polling company is working for (or at least wants to find out about). So while you may not support Republican X vs. Republican Y, you are simply asked about the hypothetical situation where X already won the primary.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18218 Posts
March 25 2015 20:45 GMT
#35289
On March 26 2015 01:39 SixStrings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 23:18 puerk wrote:
On March 25 2015 14:37 Sermokala wrote:
You guys do realize that the people cops shoot are going to be dead 100% of the time? You can't treat someone whos taken a clip or more of hollowpoint rounds even if they are 9mm. (most cops are shifting to .45 caliber for stopping power now) You can't pry out a hollowpoint round they just turn into shards of burning hot metal ripping through your body.

putting them in handcuffs kicking away the gun is done for the safety of everyone else. the last thing you want is a guy on crack wildly shooting after he recovers from the initial shock but is still bleeding out. I can see a point for k9 handlers as they can probably help a lot with the excess bleeding from those dog bites but still you're absolutely mental if you except cops to treat people they shoot.

They're first responders as it is and the shit they see from that is half the reason why they're how they are today.


The mystical land of europe, where cops don't put full clip into suspects, don't neglegt injured people, and where it is the law that you have to administer first aid. - how does it work?



That only works in Europe because not everyone has access to guns.

It's a trade-off, really. American cities are less safe, but at least they're not entirely at the mercy of their government or outside forces.

You can talk about how great gun control is all you want, but a government is far less likely to fuck with a society that is full of armed quasi-soldiers.


Are you seriously stating with a straight force that European cities are entirely at the mercy of their government or outside forces?

You think the Dutch military could hold Amsterdam for the government in the case of a massive uprising? Assuming the Dutch military would not just instantly side with the people in the first place?

Or the German military vs. a mass uprising vs. the evil government of Angela Merkel?

It's not ownership of guns that makes the people strong. It is sheer overwhelming majority. Guns just cause unnecessary bloodshed in a situation like this (assuming that your government is not a repressive totalitarian dictatorship like in Syria).
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 25 2015 20:46 GMT
#35290
i like hillary because she is hilarious, has a taste for the dramatic and the politics she will touch off will be hilarious as well. it will not be a presidency without drama.

obama is good at speeches but not gloves off politics. hillary has way more fight in her
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18218 Posts
March 25 2015 20:55 GMT
#35291
On March 26 2015 04:13 QuanticHawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 03:49 Nyxisto wrote:
No, they really thought that what the Nazi regime did was the right thing to do. Just like White Americans, for decades or centuries, were convinced that black people don't deserve rights and could be owned . Kwark posted a graph some while ago that showed that like 5% of the American population supported 'interracial marriage' in the 50's. Were they all just scared? Nope, they just were incredibly racist, like pretty much everybody else in the first half of the twentieth century.

You are missing my point.

Yes, there were people who genuinely thought all that shit that went on was a-ok. The Nazi party also made it a point to actively stomp out opposition, political and individual, and did it in a way to intimidate anyone else into compliance.

My point is that state-sponsored violence against opposition tends to have a pretty profound effect on your views. Hence why I object to the very generalized statement of most Germans being for what happened. It's a shitty oversimplication of what happened.

Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 20:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
seems like a pretty done deal that it's gonna be clinton.. bill's popularity has never been higher has it? he's gonna win it for her I feel.


I see it far from being a done deal. I know a ton of dems who hate her (I couldn't stand her myself and registered Dem after being independent for years just to vote against her in primaries... and I liked Obama more at the time).

The right hates her, she's pretty divisive among her own established base, she's about as politician as it gets (household name because of who she married and she hasn't found a vote she won't sell her soul for).

Coming off of 8 years of democrat rule, especially when Obama came in as a saint who could do no wrong and slid to a point where he has started to alienate some of his own core, I think the party could stand to pick a better candidate. It reminds me of when the Dems were facing a weak ass Bush after his first term, everyone hated him, and they trotted out fucking Kerry.


You do realize that most of the gangs going out to do the stomping weren't even under state control? They may have been doing it with the approval of the Nazi party, but they were basically militias. Exactly the kind that the US Constitution would have armed with guns instead of baseball bats.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4908 Posts
March 25 2015 20:59 GMT
#35292
IMO Hillary only has these large leads in head-to-head polls because of her name and a lack of singular opposition. Once the campaign really kicks off and people know more about the Republican candidate (and more about Hillary) it's going to tighten. Not least of all because she's as bland a politician as you can get.

Her victory is in no sense preordained.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
March 25 2015 21:05 GMT
#35293
It is if Jeb ain't running. For a group so vehemently anti-abortion, the tea party sure likes to drown presidential campaigns in their infancy.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 25 2015 21:10 GMT
#35294
On March 26 2015 05:55 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 04:13 QuanticHawk wrote:
On March 26 2015 03:49 Nyxisto wrote:
No, they really thought that what the Nazi regime did was the right thing to do. Just like White Americans, for decades or centuries, were convinced that black people don't deserve rights and could be owned . Kwark posted a graph some while ago that showed that like 5% of the American population supported 'interracial marriage' in the 50's. Were they all just scared? Nope, they just were incredibly racist, like pretty much everybody else in the first half of the twentieth century.

You are missing my point.

Yes, there were people who genuinely thought all that shit that went on was a-ok. The Nazi party also made it a point to actively stomp out opposition, political and individual, and did it in a way to intimidate anyone else into compliance.

My point is that state-sponsored violence against opposition tends to have a pretty profound effect on your views. Hence why I object to the very generalized statement of most Germans being for what happened. It's a shitty oversimplication of what happened.

On March 25 2015 20:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
seems like a pretty done deal that it's gonna be clinton.. bill's popularity has never been higher has it? he's gonna win it for her I feel.


I see it far from being a done deal. I know a ton of dems who hate her (I couldn't stand her myself and registered Dem after being independent for years just to vote against her in primaries... and I liked Obama more at the time).

The right hates her, she's pretty divisive among her own established base, she's about as politician as it gets (household name because of who she married and she hasn't found a vote she won't sell her soul for).

Coming off of 8 years of democrat rule, especially when Obama came in as a saint who could do no wrong and slid to a point where he has started to alienate some of his own core, I think the party could stand to pick a better candidate. It reminds me of when the Dems were facing a weak ass Bush after his first term, everyone hated him, and they trotted out fucking Kerry.


You do realize that most of the gangs going out to do the stomping weren't even under state control? They may have been doing it with the approval of the Nazi party, but they were basically militias. Exactly the kind that the US Constitution would have armed with guns instead of baseball bats.

Except the Jews and other minorities would've been just as heavily armed. It wouldn't have been nearly so one-sided.
Who called in the fleet?
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
March 25 2015 21:14 GMT
#35295
On March 26 2015 06:10 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 05:55 Acrofales wrote:
On March 26 2015 04:13 QuanticHawk wrote:
On March 26 2015 03:49 Nyxisto wrote:
No, they really thought that what the Nazi regime did was the right thing to do. Just like White Americans, for decades or centuries, were convinced that black people don't deserve rights and could be owned . Kwark posted a graph some while ago that showed that like 5% of the American population supported 'interracial marriage' in the 50's. Were they all just scared? Nope, they just were incredibly racist, like pretty much everybody else in the first half of the twentieth century.

You are missing my point.

Yes, there were people who genuinely thought all that shit that went on was a-ok. The Nazi party also made it a point to actively stomp out opposition, political and individual, and did it in a way to intimidate anyone else into compliance.

My point is that state-sponsored violence against opposition tends to have a pretty profound effect on your views. Hence why I object to the very generalized statement of most Germans being for what happened. It's a shitty oversimplication of what happened.

On March 25 2015 20:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
seems like a pretty done deal that it's gonna be clinton.. bill's popularity has never been higher has it? he's gonna win it for her I feel.


I see it far from being a done deal. I know a ton of dems who hate her (I couldn't stand her myself and registered Dem after being independent for years just to vote against her in primaries... and I liked Obama more at the time).

The right hates her, she's pretty divisive among her own established base, she's about as politician as it gets (household name because of who she married and she hasn't found a vote she won't sell her soul for).

Coming off of 8 years of democrat rule, especially when Obama came in as a saint who could do no wrong and slid to a point where he has started to alienate some of his own core, I think the party could stand to pick a better candidate. It reminds me of when the Dems were facing a weak ass Bush after his first term, everyone hated him, and they trotted out fucking Kerry.


You do realize that most of the gangs going out to do the stomping weren't even under state control? They may have been doing it with the approval of the Nazi party, but they were basically militias. Exactly the kind that the US Constitution would have armed with guns instead of baseball bats.

Except the Jews and other minorities would've been just as heavily armed. It wouldn't have been nearly so one-sided.

Please shut the fuck up about a culture you clearly know nothing about.

User was warned for this post
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11749 Posts
March 25 2015 21:28 GMT
#35296
Nono, giving everyone guns makes everything better and solves every problem, it's a known fact.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
March 25 2015 22:04 GMT
#35297
There is a gun thread and its well over someplace that isn't this thread. If you're just going to nation bash there really isn't any point to it here.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-25 22:51:26
March 25 2015 22:45 GMT
#35298
On March 26 2015 06:10 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2015 05:55 Acrofales wrote:
On March 26 2015 04:13 QuanticHawk wrote:
On March 26 2015 03:49 Nyxisto wrote:
No, they really thought that what the Nazi regime did was the right thing to do. Just like White Americans, for decades or centuries, were convinced that black people don't deserve rights and could be owned . Kwark posted a graph some while ago that showed that like 5% of the American population supported 'interracial marriage' in the 50's. Were they all just scared? Nope, they just were incredibly racist, like pretty much everybody else in the first half of the twentieth century.

You are missing my point.

Yes, there were people who genuinely thought all that shit that went on was a-ok. The Nazi party also made it a point to actively stomp out opposition, political and individual, and did it in a way to intimidate anyone else into compliance.

My point is that state-sponsored violence against opposition tends to have a pretty profound effect on your views. Hence why I object to the very generalized statement of most Germans being for what happened. It's a shitty oversimplication of what happened.

On March 25 2015 20:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
seems like a pretty done deal that it's gonna be clinton.. bill's popularity has never been higher has it? he's gonna win it for her I feel.


I see it far from being a done deal. I know a ton of dems who hate her (I couldn't stand her myself and registered Dem after being independent for years just to vote against her in primaries... and I liked Obama more at the time).

The right hates her, she's pretty divisive among her own established base, she's about as politician as it gets (household name because of who she married and she hasn't found a vote she won't sell her soul for).

Coming off of 8 years of democrat rule, especially when Obama came in as a saint who could do no wrong and slid to a point where he has started to alienate some of his own core, I think the party could stand to pick a better candidate. It reminds me of when the Dems were facing a weak ass Bush after his first term, everyone hated him, and they trotted out fucking Kerry.


You do realize that most of the gangs going out to do the stomping weren't even under state control? They may have been doing it with the approval of the Nazi party, but they were basically militias. Exactly the kind that the US Constitution would have armed with guns instead of baseball bats.

Except the Jews and other minorities would've been just as heavily armed. It wouldn't have been nearly so one-sided.

Please stop. You know nothing about Germany and the Holocaust. The fact that you are using the Holocaust to justify a political view that is almost non-sequitur made me lose almost all respect for you
This is why I hate discussing the Holocaust. Before you speak about the Holocaust again, please actually learn what it was
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23654 Posts
March 25 2015 22:50 GMT
#35299
I don't thinking calling America out for bad gun culture is any better or worse than calling black families out for "culture problems"

A lot of bs rhetoric from holier than thou types for both issues. It's ignoring the realities that makes both groups look bad.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
March 25 2015 22:59 GMT
#35300
I mean... who are the Dems going to field against Hillary? Even if some Dems don't like Hillary, who the fuck is a legitimate contender? I mean, the closest thing right now is Elizabeth Warren, but she's so insanely left, no big money interest will bother funding her. Good luck to her in trying to raise money, same applies for Bernie Sanders, not to mention Bernie is old as fuck, is an independent, and can't play the sex card.
liftlift > tsm
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