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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 12 2015 00:41 GMT
#31421
On January 12 2015 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Does anyone not see the largest gap we have ever had reliable data for? No matter how one manipulates the numbers?

While some here may not be trying to deny the gaps existence, they are using the same rhetoric and graphs as the people who are trying to deny it's existence in order to make it seem less significant than "the largest gap in history".


The gap's bigness is partially due to the numbers involved getting bigger. Also, the gap's existence and size cannot be strictly interpreted as bad with bigger equaling worse. It depends on how the components contribute. A growing gap due strictly to a greater share going to profit would be bad from a labor perspective, but a growing gap due strictly to greater depreciation would not be, since it would just represent a shift in how work is performed.

The reality is a mix of things. The impact of house price appreciation is a factor that could be addressed. Business profits could be as well, though that category isn't really out of historical norms, so I don't think there's too much mileage you can get out of that.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-12 00:49:34
January 12 2015 00:46 GMT
#31422
On January 12 2015 09:02 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2015 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Does anyone not see the largest gap we have ever had reliable data for? No matter how one manipulates the numbers?

While some here may not be trying to deny the gaps existence, they are using the same rhetoric and graphs as the people who are trying to deny it's existence in order to make it seem less significant than "the largest gap in history".


But you understand "the largest gap in history" is a useless trophy label. It says nothing about quality of life or the effect on people.


Not useless. It means whatever causes them to diverge is cumulatively greater now than any other time.The gap itself may not speak to quality of life and such but the context of the nation where the data is gathered does. People are working harder, longer and more for a smaller slice of the pie.

It means we need to know what is different and how that plays out in real peoples lives. If it looked the same as previous decades the perception that people are getting more productive but getting compensated less (or that compensation doesn't stretch as far) than that growth in production would be less palpable.

Of course income inequality is only part of the issue, wealth inequality seems to be more problematic to me. But numbers and statistics for that are a lot harder to come by.

It would be fascinating if we could pull out of the graphs how it looks for specific groups of people. Who's pulling the numbers up and who's pushing them down and whether there are patterns there also?

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-12 00:56:32
January 12 2015 00:56 GMT
#31423
On January 12 2015 09:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2015 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Does anyone not see the largest gap we have ever had reliable data for? No matter how one manipulates the numbers?

While some here may not be trying to deny the gaps existence, they are using the same rhetoric and graphs as the people who are trying to deny it's existence in order to make it seem less significant than "the largest gap in history".


The gap's bigness is partially due to the numbers involved getting bigger.

Do you know how percent work ?

The reality is a mix of things.

No really ?
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
January 12 2015 05:53 GMT
#31424
On January 12 2015 09:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2015 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Does anyone not see the largest gap we have ever had reliable data for? No matter how one manipulates the numbers?

While some here may not be trying to deny the gaps existence, they are using the same rhetoric and graphs as the people who are trying to deny it's existence in order to make it seem less significant than "the largest gap in history".


The gap's bigness is partially due to the numbers involved getting bigger. Also, the gap's existence and size cannot be strictly interpreted as bad with bigger equaling worse. It depends on how the components contribute. A growing gap due strictly to a greater share going to profit would be bad from a labor perspective, but a growing gap due strictly to greater depreciation would not be, since it would just represent a shift in how work is performed.

The reality is a mix of things. The impact of house price appreciation is a factor that could be addressed. Business profits could be as well, though that category isn't really out of historical norms, so I don't think there's too much mileage you can get out of that.

Divergent trends notes a structural change in the way both are derived. There was a decoupling of some variables. If it was a one time occurrence, we would see parallel trends.

The question nobody seems to be asking: Why does it seem to start in the early 70s? Supply side economic policies and tax changes didn't take place until the 80s. Do we attribute the 1970s portion to something else, or is it evidence of another factor?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
January 12 2015 06:47 GMT
#31425
On January 12 2015 14:53 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2015 09:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 12 2015 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Does anyone not see the largest gap we have ever had reliable data for? No matter how one manipulates the numbers?

While some here may not be trying to deny the gaps existence, they are using the same rhetoric and graphs as the people who are trying to deny it's existence in order to make it seem less significant than "the largest gap in history".


The gap's bigness is partially due to the numbers involved getting bigger. Also, the gap's existence and size cannot be strictly interpreted as bad with bigger equaling worse. It depends on how the components contribute. A growing gap due strictly to a greater share going to profit would be bad from a labor perspective, but a growing gap due strictly to greater depreciation would not be, since it would just represent a shift in how work is performed.

The reality is a mix of things. The impact of house price appreciation is a factor that could be addressed. Business profits could be as well, though that category isn't really out of historical norms, so I don't think there's too much mileage you can get out of that.

Divergent trends notes a structural change in the way both are derived. There was a decoupling of some variables. If it was a one time occurrence, we would see parallel trends.

The question nobody seems to be asking: Why does it seem to start in the early 70s? Supply side economic policies and tax changes didn't take place until the 80s. Do we attribute the 1970s portion to something else, or is it evidence of another factor?


If I had to venture a guess unions/part time workers would be a significant factor.

[image loading]

With a larger share of the population unprotected by unions, millions of people have not enjoyed the "real compensation" increases in benefits, PTO, hourly wages, etc...

It's kind of obvious when you consider the millions of Americans who have seen 0 of things like employer provided/subsidized health care.

When you consider the millions of Americans who can only find part time work even if they actually work 70+ hours a week are still considered part time employees from their employers perspective. So while they may be working harder and more than someone working 50 hours, one is getting that 10 hours of overtime and the other isn't. One is eligible for employer matched 401's, one is not. One was required to be provided healthcare options the other wasn't. One accrues PTO at an increased rate, the other does not. The list goes on.

So what one might see (I suggest) in the graphs is that while certain groups have seen their overall compensation pretty closely keep pace and sometimes superseded what would be expected, people who's total compensation is the most influenced by their hourly wage simply have not (or at least not as much as they did in the past).





"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 12 2015 16:35 GMT
#31426
Cuba has released all 53 prisoners it had promised to free, senior U.S. officials said, a major step toward détente with Washington.

The release of the remaining prisoners sets a positive tone for historic talks next week aimed at normalizing relations after decades of hostility, the officials said.

They described the Cuban government’s release over the weekend of the last detainees on the list as a milestone, but said they would keep pressing Havana to free more people the United States considers political prisoners.

The officials, speaking to Reuters on condition of anonymity, did not say how many prisoners were released over the weekend or identify them. But the White House will provide the names of all 53 to Congress and expects lawmakers to make them public, the officials added.

There had been questions over whether Havana would release all 53 prisoners as part of the deal Presidents Barack Obama and Raul Castro announced on Dec. 17 to restore diplomatic ties that Washington severed more than 50 years ago.

Intense secrecy surrounding the 53, whose names have been withheld by both countries, had fueled skepticism over Cuba’s intentions and played to critics who said Washington has not pressured Havana enough on human rights in exchange for normalizing ties and loosening economic and travel restrictions.

Leading Cuban dissidents said that as of Sunday they had not received word that the prisoner release was complete and only knew of up to 39 people freed since Dec. 17, including a popular hip-hop artist.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 12 2015 20:59 GMT
#31427
On January 12 2015 14:53 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2015 09:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 12 2015 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Does anyone not see the largest gap we have ever had reliable data for? No matter how one manipulates the numbers?

While some here may not be trying to deny the gaps existence, they are using the same rhetoric and graphs as the people who are trying to deny it's existence in order to make it seem less significant than "the largest gap in history".


The gap's bigness is partially due to the numbers involved getting bigger. Also, the gap's existence and size cannot be strictly interpreted as bad with bigger equaling worse. It depends on how the components contribute. A growing gap due strictly to a greater share going to profit would be bad from a labor perspective, but a growing gap due strictly to greater depreciation would not be, since it would just represent a shift in how work is performed.

The reality is a mix of things. The impact of house price appreciation is a factor that could be addressed. Business profits could be as well, though that category isn't really out of historical norms, so I don't think there's too much mileage you can get out of that.

Divergent trends notes a structural change in the way both are derived. There was a decoupling of some variables. If it was a one time occurrence, we would see parallel trends.

The question nobody seems to be asking: Why does it seem to start in the early 70s? Supply side economic policies and tax changes didn't take place until the 80s. Do we attribute the 1970s portion to something else, or is it evidence of another factor?

I thought I already answered that. Two biggies:

1) Starting in the early 70's technology changed. Companies invested relatively more into things like computers than things like buildings. Because computers don't last as long as buildings, depreciation went up and capital took a bigger share to pay for that. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


2) From the end of WW2 to the early 80's, the share of production going to profits was trending downward. Profit isn't going to fall to zero, or go negative, so that trend was unsustainable. At some point profit would either reverse trend and move up, or level off. It did a bit of both - the low point became a sort of lower bound with cyclical upside. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Honorable mention: part of capital's share of output is an imputed value (non-cash) on home ownership ('household rental income' in the cart). Mostly that factor trended down until the late 80's than up again, with a couple big cycles along the way. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Like I said before, there's some room to address profits and housing values, but I don't think there's anything you can do about depreciation.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 12 2015 23:15 GMT
#31428
A judge ruled South Dakota's gay marriage ban unconstitutional on Monday.

U.S. District Court Judge Karen E. Schreier wrote that the plaintiffs in the case "have a fundamental right to marry."

"South Dakota law deprives them of that right solely because they are same-sex couples and without sufficient justification," Schreier wrote.

The decision is stayed pending a possible appeal to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals.


Source

The new House Budget Committee chairman hinted Monday that he had big plans for Social Security reform in the next two years, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

A week after the House voted on a rule that critics say could force a manufactured crisis in the disability program in late 2016, a potential leverage point for Republicans aiming for changes, Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) told a conservative audience that he wanted his committee to tackle Social Security.

"What I’m hopeful is what the Budget Committee will be able do is to is begin to normalize the discussion and debate about Social Security. This is a program that right now on its current course will not be able to provide 75 or 80 percent of the benefits that individuals have paid into in a relatively short period of time," he said at a Heritage Action for America event in Washington, D.C., according to AJC. "That’s not a responsible position to say, ‘You don’t need to do anything to do it.’"

Price, whose predecessor Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) never put forward major reform proposals in his otherwise ambitious budgets, offered means-testing and increasing the eligibility age as possibilities. He also hinted at privatizing Social Security.

"All those things ought to be on the table and discussed," he said.

Democrats and others started sounding the alarm on Social Security after the House passed its rule last week. The rule prevented what had historically been a routine transfer of tax revenue between the retirement and disability programs to keep the latter solvent. Without it, benefits could be cut by 20 percent starting in late 2016.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
January 12 2015 23:18 GMT
#31429
With the Romney talk I'm curious who conservatives feel would be a worse nominee Romney or Bush?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-12 23:21:21
January 12 2015 23:21 GMT
#31430
Both. Romney would be a third time loser, and as for Bush the conservatives have never liked powerful families let alone political dynasties. Not to mention say Bush wins the Primaries and during the acceptance speech and the balloons start falling, who joins him on stage which members of the family?
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
January 12 2015 23:24 GMT
#31431
As a moderate I like so much of what Bush says, and so much more of what I think he's holding off saying. But as a republican (little "r") I have to vote against any third time dynasty. Control by powerful families should be discouraged, even if I think it's a shame the stupid brother got to be president and the smart one got governorship of a state that looks like a limp dick.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-12 23:35:39
January 12 2015 23:33 GMT
#31432
They're both losers and I don't like either, so I haven't thought about any race between the two. We'll see how the primaries look by the time California's rolls around. I won't waste my time unless I have no other options.

Not that my vote would matter. If memory serves CA Republicans go moderate most of the time anyway.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 12 2015 23:41 GMT
#31433
On January 13 2015 08:21 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Both. Romney would be a third time loser, and as for Bush the conservatives have never liked powerful families let alone political dynasties. Not to mention say Bush wins the Primaries and during the acceptance speech and the balloons start falling, who joins him on stage which members of the family?

You also have to factor in that Romney cast himself as a Midwestern and Northeast candidate who has never gotten much traction in either region so far as appealing to moderates and liberals. Plus with inequality worse than ever and now a growing issue, his wealth problems are also a bigger liability than ever. He was right in calling out bad Obama policies, particularly in foreign affairs, but he's never been able to explain what he would do differently and why anyone should prefer him as leader.

Bush might do okay in Florida, but he's still essentially a Southern candidate who probably can't much done outside of the South and he's more likely than anything to alienate Southern voters with a moderate social message, particularly on immigration. Latinos aren't going to move the needle for him just because he can speak Spanish. Have to see more of his campaign but I'm not optimistic about his chances.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 12 2015 23:45 GMT
#31434
On January 13 2015 08:33 Introvert wrote:
They're both losers and I don't like either, so I haven't thought about any race between the two. We'll see how the primaries look by the time California's rolls around. I won't waste my time unless I have no other options.

Not that my vote would matter. If memory serves CA Republicans go moderate most of the time anyway.

Don't worry, in the big race all of California's delegates are going for the Democrats. I've heard some rumblings about Jerry Brown making a run for the Democratic nomination and that's a much more interesting conversation IMO. He'll never be president because he's a classic tax and spend liberal, but you don't get to be governor of California twice in two separate decades because you can't play the game.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-13 00:21:06
January 12 2015 23:51 GMT
#31435
depreciation rate did not rise in the 1970's because of more computers. the rise in capital investment started in the 1960's. there's a lapse between when you buy the machine and its depreciation, but the depreciation rule was changed in the 70's to allow for faster depreciation schedule instead of straight linear depreciation. from 70's on life cycle of capital equipment etc has become shorter, due to technological competition, but it was not the only effect. more depreciation was a kind of tax shield.

even so, profit share started to rise in the 1970's, and this is not depreciation related. it's just a more competitive and energized management approach which disrupted the comfortable truce between labor and capital in the 50's and 60's.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
January 13 2015 00:03 GMT
#31436
So who's the "true conservative" that republicans will rally around? Or are conservatives throwing in the towel officially for 2016 already?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
January 13 2015 00:21 GMT
#31437
Ben Carson will have a moment before imploding, if he wants.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 13 2015 00:53 GMT
#31438
NEW YORK -- In January 2008, a teenage high-school student in the Bronx had an argument with her principal. An NYPD officer assigned to the school quickly arrived to subdue the unruly student.

What happened next was caught on video: The officer put the student in a chokehold.

The NYPD's patrol guide expressly bans chokeholds. But the departmental prosecutor declined to seek internal discipline in the case. That decision was part of a larger pattern at the NYPD in the five years leading up to the July death of Staten Island man Eric Garner, according to a report from the department's new inspector general.

"Our targeted analysis revealed troubling deficiencies from the top-down that must be rectified," Philip Eure, the inspector general, wrote in a letter released Monday.

Time and again, Eure's investigators found, New York police officers resorted to chokeholds first -- often for the crime of merely questioning the officer's authority. And time and again, the NYPD ignored discipline recommendations from the independent agency that investigated civilians' chokehold complaints.

"NYPD bans on chokeholds and other practices are meaningless if officers aren't held accountable for continuing to use them," Priscilla Gonzalez, organizing director of the group Communities United for Police Reform, said in a statement. She applauded Eure's report and called on Mayor Bill de Blasio and Police Commissioner William Bratton to take immediate steps to impose sterner discipline.

The results of the inspector general report mirror those of an October report from the Civilian Complaint Review Board, the independent investigative agency. Both reports examined 10 substantiated chokehold cases, and both concluded that the NYPD imposed at most a loss of vacation days as a penalty.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 13 2015 00:59 GMT
#31439
On January 13 2015 08:51 oneofthem wrote:
depreciation rate did not rise in the 1970's because of more computers. the rise in capital investment started in the 1960's. there's a lapse between when you buy the machine and its depreciation, but the depreciation rule was changed in the 70's to allow for faster depreciation schedule instead of straight linear depreciation. from 70's on life cycle of capital equipment etc has become shorter, due to technological competition, but it was not the only effect. more depreciation was a kind of tax shield.

even so, profit share started to rise in the 1970's, and this is not depreciation related. it's just a more competitive and energized management approach which disrupted the comfortable truce between labor and capital in the 50's and 60's.

The tech factor comes from the CBO:
Consumption of fixed capital has grown as a share of GDI since the mid-1970s, largely as a result of the shift in investment spending toward assets with shorter service lives (especially computers, communications equipment, and software) and thus higher rates of depreciation.
Link Maybe it's wrong, but I'd like to see evidence. I assume the rule change you're referring to is MACRS and the like? I don't think that's a factor here since MACRS only applies to taxes. Not sure about your comments on profit share either since profit share was higher in the 50's and 60's, the the rise didn't start until the early 80's and then more significantly in the 90's.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
January 13 2015 01:05 GMT
#31440
On January 13 2015 09:21 Yoav wrote:
Ben Carson will have a moment before imploding, if he wants.


I suppose being some sort of a quasi-Creationist isn't considered imploding for conservatives? It's kind of hard to comprehend exactly what he was saying. Maybe Intro wants to take a whack at what he means?

https://soundcloud.com/rightwingwatch/carson-evolution-is-a-myth
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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