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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 115

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 18 2013 03:08 GMT
#2281
Yeah, I get it Jonny. the point is that you get these more complicated and more complicated models to try to express risk quantitatively using seriously flawed mathematical tools (the Gaussian) and the more complicated your air castles get, the more you are deluding yourself into thinking you understand what is going on.
shikata ga nai
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 03:16:23
February 18 2013 03:15 GMT
#2282
On February 18 2013 10:25 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Either way it's a semantic discussion and hence unproductive but I don't see the point of having Republic and Democracy mean the same thing when you could have them mean separate things.

They don't mean the same thing.
The U.K. is a (constitutional) monarchy and a democracy. The U.S. is a republic and a democracy.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 03:40:15
February 18 2013 03:18 GMT
#2283
On February 18 2013 11:21 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 11:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
The story still doesn't work for the poor shopkeep though. Getting $1,000 in sales later on does little for his income. Assuming a generous 10% net profit margin the shopkeep would need to see a sales increase of $10,000 before he's made whole. That won't happen and so the shopkeep will need to cut some other expense to make up for it (either a business expense to raise up his income or cut into his personal consumption).

Relative to what?

Replacing a broken window is a fixed cost, not a variable one*. It's very possible that dipping into savings to replace such a window could easily pay for itself, depending on the interest rate on his savings.

There's absolutely no reason why the shopkeeper must dip into his personal consumption. It's all relative to what he can get money for.

*Well, in the long run, even his shop will turn into dust, so I guess it's variable. Not relevant.

Even taking the example at face value, replacing the broken window could be $10,000 more profitable than NOT replacing the window. Assume that the broken window lowers sales by 10% and the shopkeeper normally makes 50k a year. But why would you arbitrarily add numbers to a theoretical discussion? Makes no sense.

The PV of the interest the shopkeeper receives on his savings = his savings.

The only way the shopkeeper wins is if the extra sales generated by the increased economic activity is more than enough to replace the $1,000 lost in replacing the window. For that to happen you need his sales to rise far more than $1,000.

And your point about the broken window lowering sales is irrelevant. You can't price replacing the window as its own project.

Edit: is this point even worth discussing? Are there any successful retailers out there with business models that follow this line of thinking?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 18 2013 03:24 GMT
#2284
The shopkeeper doesn't win, capitalism wins.
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 03:32:02
February 18 2013 03:24 GMT
#2285
On February 18 2013 12:08 sam!zdat wrote:
Yeah, I get it Jonny. the point is that you get these more complicated and more complicated models to try to express risk quantitatively using seriously flawed mathematical tools (the Gaussian) and the more complicated your air castles get, the more you are deluding yourself into thinking you understand what is going on.

That's true! At best all the risk adjustment will do is tell you how risky the project is on average. You can't (well, you shouldn't) then go and assume that your project is average.

Edit: you also run into problems like assuming a normal probability distribution only to find out that reality follows a different curve and other technical oddities.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 03:34:36
February 18 2013 03:33 GMT
#2286
And then you financialize your entire society, and tie everything together through a global stock exchange, and you know how risky your stock exchange is on average, and then you go and assume your society is average. It's like building a ship without any bulkheads.

On February 18 2013 12:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Edit: you also run into problems like assuming a normal probability distribution only to find out that reality follows a different curve and other technical oddities.


that's because reality is mandelbrotian, not gaussian
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 18 2013 03:44 GMT
#2287
On February 18 2013 12:33 sam!zdat wrote:
And then you financialize your entire society, and tie everything together through a global stock exchange, and you know how risky your stock exchange is on average, and then you go and assume your society is average. It's like building a ship without any bulkheads.

True. Entrepreneurs and regulators are supposed to find those flaws and exploit / fix them. But obviously that doesn't always work.

Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 12:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Edit: you also run into problems like assuming a normal probability distribution only to find out that reality follows a different curve and other technical oddities.


that's because reality is mandelbrotian, not gaussian

yeah totally! ::smiles, nods, pretends he knows what those words mean:::
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 18 2013 03:48 GMT
#2288
Gaussian is easier to represent mathematically. Blame the universe, not statisticians.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 18 2013 04:21 GMT
#2289
I know this is a US politics thread, but has anybody been keeping up with Japan? They've basically devalued their currency by at least 15% against the USD in 4 months. That's ridiculous by any accounts, but I don't see a ton of panic on either side of the Pacific.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 18 2013 04:36 GMT
#2290
On February 18 2013 13:21 aksfjh wrote:
I know this is a US politics thread, but has anybody been keeping up with Japan? They've basically devalued their currency by at least 15% against the USD in 4 months. That's ridiculous by any accounts, but I don't see a ton of panic on either side of the Pacific.


I wish they did that while I was still there... And I thought this is something both sides wanted, so I'm not sure why there'd be panic.
Writer
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 18 2013 05:05 GMT
#2291
On February 18 2013 13:36 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 13:21 aksfjh wrote:
I know this is a US politics thread, but has anybody been keeping up with Japan? They've basically devalued their currency by at least 15% against the USD in 4 months. That's ridiculous by any accounts, but I don't see a ton of panic on either side of the Pacific.


I wish they did that while I was still there... And I thought this is something both sides wanted, so I'm not sure why there'd be panic.

Well, it's mainly the speed at which it's going down. Losing their international purchasing power by almost 1/5 in a matter of months. I hear rumors of currency wars.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 05:20:52
February 18 2013 05:15 GMT
#2292
On February 18 2013 12:48 aksfjh wrote:
Gaussian is easier to represent mathematically. Blame the universe, not statisticians.

it's more like complex interaction systems are harder to represent mathematically, yet economics has always liked simple math because the seeming simplicity equates with generality, which gave a sort of scientific appeal. physics equations, are always elegant because they are simple.

it is a problem with how economics was done. the best economic models also cannot take into account of the fact of its own use and effect. this is the fundamental level of instability imho. if everyone uses a model that misses a certain kind of risk, then by the widespread adoption of this model by the top players in the game, they will have a runaway miscalculation of the risk.

this kind of model-modeled world interaction is, mandelbrotian
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 05:26:29
February 18 2013 05:24 GMT
#2293
On February 18 2013 12:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 12:33 sam!zdat wrote:
And then you financialize your entire society, and tie everything together through a global stock exchange, and you know how risky your stock exchange is on average, and then you go and assume your society is average. It's like building a ship without any bulkheads.

True. Entrepreneurs and regulators are supposed to find those flaws and exploit / fix them. But obviously that doesn't always work.

Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 12:24 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Edit: you also run into problems like assuming a normal probability distribution only to find out that reality follows a different curve and other technical oddities.


that's because reality is mandelbrotian, not gaussian

yeah totally! ::smiles, nods, pretends he knows what those words mean:::


[image loading]

[image loading]

(edit: these are not equivalent or used for the same thing or anything. just an illustration)

edit: but which one looks more like:

[image loading]
shikata ga nai
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 05:46:25
February 18 2013 05:27 GMT
#2294
taleb's mandelbrot thing is similar in nature to the complex systems video jonny linked a couple pages back (as well as the stuff i linked to in the other thread). it basically points to a recursive process with risk, that there maybe system interactions that produce feedback loops that can lead to runaway results at the extreme end, even though the triggering event is not that huge by itself.

the concrete manifestation of thsi in finance is the uniformly bad miscalculation of risk due to use of a flawed model, high and interdependent leverage, and a debt fueled asset (real estate) market rise that led to further debt production.

without intricate mathematical models, the way expectation works in a speculative bubble plays that role pretty well.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 18 2013 05:28 GMT
#2295
so what we need is bulkheads!
shikata ga nai
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 18 2013 22:04 GMT
#2296
After debuting with great fanfare, an RNC-backed scheme to rig the electoral college in blue states to favor Republican presidential candidates is looking mostly dead. But, to quote the Princess Bride, “there’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.” Enter Pennsylvania, where an electoral vote bill is more than slightly alive.

State Senate president Dominic Pileggi (R) is pushing a plan to change Pennsylvania’s current winner-take-all allocation of the state’s 20 electoral votes to a system that apportions them proportionally by each candidate’s share of the statewide vote. Had it gone into effect before the 2012 election, President Obama would have won just 12 electoral votes to Mitt Romney’s 8. According to a memo Pileggi wrote debuting his new plan, the revamped system “much more accurately reflects the will of the voters in our state.”

Pileggi’s bill is slightly less far-reaching a power grab than bills proposed in states like Virginia that would have divided electoral votes by congressional district, which thanks to gerrymandering strongly favors Republicans even in states Obama won handily. This is by design: Pileggi pitched a congressional district split along the lines of the Virginia bill in 2011 only to face near-unanimous opposition from Republican members of Congress in the state who feared Democrats would pour millions of dollars into winning their individual districts. While Pileggi has shifted on the issue, a pair of Pennsylvania state representatives have also introduced a congressional split version since the election.

But the biggest difference that sets Pennsylvania apart is that each of the top leaders necessary to pass a bill have expressed support for changing its electoral college. Gov. Tom Corbett (R) strongly backed Pileggi’s 2011 effort. So did state House Majority Leader Mike Turzai (R), best known nationally for bragging that voter ID restrictions opposed by civil rights groups would help Romney win the state in 2012. By contrast, similar electoral vote bills elsewhere hit a wall this year after Republican statehouse leaders, key lawmakers, or governors indicated their opposition.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 18 2013 23:25 GMT
#2297
On February 19 2013 07:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
After debuting with great fanfare, an RNC-backed scheme to rig the electoral college in blue states to favor Republican presidential candidates is looking mostly dead. But, to quote the Princess Bride, “there’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.” Enter Pennsylvania, where an electoral vote bill is more than slightly alive.

State Senate president Dominic Pileggi (R) is pushing a plan to change Pennsylvania’s current winner-take-all allocation of the state’s 20 electoral votes to a system that apportions them proportionally by each candidate’s share of the statewide vote. Had it gone into effect before the 2012 election, President Obama would have won just 12 electoral votes to Mitt Romney’s 8. According to a memo Pileggi wrote debuting his new plan, the revamped system “much more accurately reflects the will of the voters in our state.”

Pileggi’s bill is slightly less far-reaching a power grab than bills proposed in states like Virginia that would have divided electoral votes by congressional district, which thanks to gerrymandering strongly favors Republicans even in states Obama won handily. This is by design: Pileggi pitched a congressional district split along the lines of the Virginia bill in 2011 only to face near-unanimous opposition from Republican members of Congress in the state who feared Democrats would pour millions of dollars into winning their individual districts. While Pileggi has shifted on the issue, a pair of Pennsylvania state representatives have also introduced a congressional split version since the election.

But the biggest difference that sets Pennsylvania apart is that each of the top leaders necessary to pass a bill have expressed support for changing its electoral college. Gov. Tom Corbett (R) strongly backed Pileggi’s 2011 effort. So did state House Majority Leader Mike Turzai (R), best known nationally for bragging that voter ID restrictions opposed by civil rights groups would help Romney win the state in 2012. By contrast, similar electoral vote bills elsewhere hit a wall this year after Republican statehouse leaders, key lawmakers, or governors indicated their opposition.


Source

I'm actually ok with this. I don't like the people that support it and why they support it, but splitting the EC based on popular vote makes sense these days.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 18 2013 23:32 GMT
#2298
On February 19 2013 08:25 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2013 07:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
After debuting with great fanfare, an RNC-backed scheme to rig the electoral college in blue states to favor Republican presidential candidates is looking mostly dead. But, to quote the Princess Bride, “there’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.” Enter Pennsylvania, where an electoral vote bill is more than slightly alive.

State Senate president Dominic Pileggi (R) is pushing a plan to change Pennsylvania’s current winner-take-all allocation of the state’s 20 electoral votes to a system that apportions them proportionally by each candidate’s share of the statewide vote. Had it gone into effect before the 2012 election, President Obama would have won just 12 electoral votes to Mitt Romney’s 8. According to a memo Pileggi wrote debuting his new plan, the revamped system “much more accurately reflects the will of the voters in our state.”

Pileggi’s bill is slightly less far-reaching a power grab than bills proposed in states like Virginia that would have divided electoral votes by congressional district, which thanks to gerrymandering strongly favors Republicans even in states Obama won handily. This is by design: Pileggi pitched a congressional district split along the lines of the Virginia bill in 2011 only to face near-unanimous opposition from Republican members of Congress in the state who feared Democrats would pour millions of dollars into winning their individual districts. While Pileggi has shifted on the issue, a pair of Pennsylvania state representatives have also introduced a congressional split version since the election.

But the biggest difference that sets Pennsylvania apart is that each of the top leaders necessary to pass a bill have expressed support for changing its electoral college. Gov. Tom Corbett (R) strongly backed Pileggi’s 2011 effort. So did state House Majority Leader Mike Turzai (R), best known nationally for bragging that voter ID restrictions opposed by civil rights groups would help Romney win the state in 2012. By contrast, similar electoral vote bills elsewhere hit a wall this year after Republican statehouse leaders, key lawmakers, or governors indicated their opposition.


Source

I'm actually ok with this. I don't like the people that support it and why they support it, but splitting the EC based on popular vote makes sense these days.


It does make sense, but only if all the states do it imo, and if they aren't under the effect of partisan gerrymandering. Imagine if only blue states did this or vice-versa, the other party would never win an election.
Writer
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-19 01:40:48
February 19 2013 01:37 GMT
#2299
sam!zdat United States. February 18 2013 14:24. Posts 3583

edit: these are not equivalent or used for the same thing or anything. just an illustration)

edit: but which one looks more like:

The bellcurve would be the most fitting to describe the stockmarket.
On the x axes you would have the percentage drop or rise in a certain time frame (with the mean as unchanged), for example daily.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 19 2013 01:41 GMT
#2300
No, go read Taleb's book.
shikata ga nai
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