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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 01:52:34
February 18 2013 01:51 GMT
#2241
It isn't true. At all. Measure of employment were down for every industry during the recession, from shipping to manufacturing to finance. Or you could go to Google and look up bundled stocks for most industries; also down.

The only exceptions being related to oil and other highly volatile products with high inelasticities of demand.
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
February 18 2013 01:51 GMT
#2242
Depressions are general and affect all industries but the booms and busts are more severe in capital goods industries.
TotalBalanceSC2
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada475 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 01:52:12
February 18 2013 01:51 GMT
#2243
On February 18 2013 10:47 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Show nested quote +
How do governments form?


An excellent question. Oppenheimer demonstrates in 'The State' that government originates through one tribe conquering and then exploiting and oppressing another. I do agree that liberty is fleeting but that simply means we must redouble our efforts to defend it.


But would not the original tribe, even before conquering the other tribe, have a discernible method for governing/organizing itself? After all if it is recognized as a tribe it must have some form of structure to recognize it by. So then the government predates the conquering and oppression and is simply a method of organization.
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 01:53:01
February 18 2013 01:52 GMT
#2244
I await your quantitative analysis of capital vs consumer goods industries acker.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 01:54:35
February 18 2013 01:53 GMT
#2245
On February 18 2013 10:52 TerribleNoobling wrote:
I await your quantitative analysis of capital vs consumer goods industries acker.


I recommend this book, for an excellent analysis of this topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Limits-Capital-New-updated/dp/1844670953

edit: the short answer to your question is that investments into fixed capital must anticipate a longer time horizon, and therefore are more prone to error, and therefore are more volatile
shikata ga nai
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
February 18 2013 01:53 GMT
#2246
On February 18 2013 10:52 TerribleNoobling wrote:
I await your quantitative analysis of capital vs consumer goods industries acker.

I'm not spending a couple hours on research that will do absolutely nothing to change your mind.
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
February 18 2013 01:54 GMT
#2247
The depression really hits industries like machine tools, capital equipment, construction, and raw materials. Obviously all industries are affected, but these industries are affected more heavily than the others.
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
February 18 2013 01:55 GMT
#2248
On February 18 2013 10:53 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 10:52 TerribleNoobling wrote:
I await your quantitative analysis of capital vs consumer goods industries acker.


I recommend this book, for an excellent analysis of this topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Limits-Capital-New-updated/dp/1844670953

edit: the short answer to your question is that investments into fixed capital must anticipate a longer time horizon, and therefore are more prone to error, and therefore are more volatile

and I will recommend this for you :

http://mises.org/tradcycl/econdepr.asp

my book has the advantage of being available online for free
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 18 2013 01:57 GMT
#2249
My book has the advantage of being good
shikata ga nai
TotalBalanceSC2
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada475 Posts
February 18 2013 01:58 GMT
#2250
On February 18 2013 10:54 TerribleNoobling wrote:
The depression really hits industries like machine tools, capital equipment, construction, and raw materials. Obviously all industries are affected, but these industries are affected more heavily than the others.


Well obviously, people need food, clothing, etcetera to survive so they will continue to buy consumer goods just not as much. The makers of the consumer goods, after seeing a drop in the demand for their products will no longer see a need to buy new capital equipment for making their consumer goods as they are already capable of filling their demand. Hence the capital goods get hit worse because they lose almost all of their business while the consumer goods do better because they only lose some of their business.
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
February 18 2013 02:04 GMT
#2251
That's one explanation. Another is that resources were misallocated to capital goods industries because artificially low interest rates fooled entrepreneurs into malinvesting in these capital goods industries, and as the smoke cleared and these investments were proven to be uneconomic they were liquidated so that resources could be reallocated to better fulfill consumer demand.

Although I guess we could be talking about something like the difference between strategy and tactics. I.e. I'm answering the why and you're answering the how.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 18 2013 02:06 GMT
#2252
how can entrepreneurs be fooled? I thought entrepreneurs were rational actors in an efficient market, who process all information perfectly and instantaneously?
shikata ga nai
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-18 02:10:39
February 18 2013 02:09 GMT
#2253
On February 18 2013 11:04 TerribleNoobling wrote:
That's one explanation. Another is that resources were misallocated to capital goods industries because artificially low interest rates fooled entrepreneurs into malinvesting in these capital goods industries, and as the smoke cleared and these investments were proven to be uneconomic they were liquidated so that resources could be reallocated to better fulfill consumer demand.

Which begs the question as to why almost all industries had serious unemployment issues for four years and counting.

Or why countries that kept abnormally low interest rates on capital recovered, on average, faster than countries that raised interest rates on capital.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
February 18 2013 02:10 GMT
#2254
On February 18 2013 10:54 TerribleNoobling wrote:
The depression really hits industries like machine tools, capital equipment, construction, and raw materials. Obviously all industries are affected, but these industries are affected more heavily than the others.

As far as I know, what started the current downturn was the capital. When their money got tight the number of loans dropped. The question is then: Who would have taken up those loans? If your answer is ie. all of the above (and/or their consumers), the question becomes: How can you claim anything about severity differences when they are so heavily correlated? The only reason why you would blame the state is if you do not blame capital industries, which seems a bit naive given how the crisis started.
Repeat before me
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 18 2013 02:12 GMT
#2255
On February 18 2013 10:35 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2013 10:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On February 18 2013 08:53 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
On February 18 2013 08:42 TerribleNoobling wrote:
aksfjh the broken window fallacy demonstrates how WWII could not have ended the depression. The theory, incidentally, was that the great depression was brought upon by a failure of aggregate demand. Consumers were not spending enough money, the economy went down the shitter, but the government stepped up to the plate employing everyone in arms manufacturing sopping up this falling demand with lots of gov'ment money and everything was great and we all rode off into the sunshine together singing kumbaya.

The broken window fallacy is this. Imagine that a kid is playing and throws his ball and it breaks a shopkeeper's window. Superficially this seems like it is good for the economy. You see the store owner must pay the glass man to fix his window, the glass man can now buy milk, the milk man can buy some other shit, etc. etc. But the crucial point is this : if the store keeper's window had not been broken he would have then been able to buy something else, say a new suit from a tailor. the tailor could then purchase some rare coins, the coin salesman could buy some comic books etc. etc.

The resources which were employed during WWII could have been employed instead on civilian uses. Creating new factories or other forms of capital to make the labour force more productive (and thus raise wages). Or it could have been spent on improved living conditions, more time off, more consumer goods etc. all depending on the demands of consumers.

War is massively destructive. Even when your cities are not being bombed or looted, there are very little peace time uses for tanks, bombs etc and even if there were a lot of this equipment gets destroyed and hundreds of thousands of (it's sort of weak to think of them this way, since of course every human is so much more than simply what he does for work) able bodied workers died (and ergo could not produce anything). None of this is a recipe for economic prosperity. War is not good for the economy.

Another aspect to this depression was Hoover's (yes, Hoover's) New Deal. I say Hoover's because FDR did not really create the New Deal it was in fact an extension of Hoover's policies. FDR himself was a callow and unimaginative man. Hoover undertook a great expansion of government intervention into the market place... things like price controls, paying farmers to kill pigs, massive public spending programs... all of these things hurt the economy and delayed the healing process wherein malinvestment is liquidated and resources are shifted from capital goods industries (where they are misallocated on account of artificially low interest rates fooling entrepreneurs about consumer time preference) to consumer goods industries.

Another feature was regime uncertainty. Hoover and FDR specifically established broad powers of wealth confiscation. FDR, for example, stole everyone's gold (believe it or not). This lead to regime uncertainty. People are not very likely to go about creating wealth if they think the government is just going to take it from them. There were a lot of factors for why the great depression was so 'great'.

It was only after the war was over, and after taxes were cut massively, that the economy really started to recover.


Except the broken window fallacy doesn't really work very well. True the shopkeeper still has the money if the window was never broken but that is no guarantee that he will spend it, the broken window acts as a method of forcing the spending. He cannot run a shop with broken glass all over the floor and thus must pay to have the mess cleaned up and a new window put in. The money may have been there but the war among other things forced it to be spent.

The shopkeeper pays $1,000 for the broken window to be replaced. Everyone involved in replacing the window then has $1,000 in extra income. But the shopkeeper now has $1,000 less in income. The multiplier is then zero.

Maybe the shopkeeper won't immediately change is spending habits in reaction to the loss of income. In that case the multiplier would be greater than zero... at least temporarily (until the shopkeeper's spending reflects the loss of income).

Here's a simple acid test: on net is everyone better off because the window broke? If so then why is breaking windows illegal? Or better yet - do areas with high crime rates have better economies?


In good economic times the breaking of the window might not be much of a net benefit but when in a depression sometimes the expenditure of money then can lead to better long term growth allowing for everyone to benefit.

If I can use a little anecdote, The shopkeeper, the baker, the carpenter and tailor all have been suffering lately due to a drop in business, they are all saving what money they have due to the fact they are worried about the state of the economy. A kid breaks the shopkeepers window so he has to pay money to the carpenter to fix it. Now that the carpenter has some more money he feels a little safer in buying some more food from the baker. By now the shopkeeper has had his window fixed and is operating again. The baker decides to buy a new suit from tailor which allows the tailor to buy some toys from the shop for Christmas. Now that people feel safer that business has returned to more profitable levels they feel safer spending money which allows all the business's to keep growing. Of course if the economy had already been running smoothly the broken window would have no discernible net benefit but that was hardly the case in the great depression. The war among other things acted like the spark that starts the fire, at least in my opinion.

The story still doesn't work for the poor shopkeep though. Getting $1,000 in sales later on does little for his income. Assuming a generous 10% net profit margin the shopkeep would need to see a sales increase of $10,000 before he's made whole. That won't happen and so the shopkeep will need to cut some other expense to make up for it (either a business expense to raise up his income or cut into his personal consumption).

At best I can see a temporary increase in total income from this. For some reason more money was being saved than borrowed and the broken window unlocked some of it.

But so what?

No one is getting rich off of just one broken window. Ramp it up (break lots of windows) and the results can change dramatically. At some point the shopkeep is just going to say "Fucking assholes!! That's it - I'm closing my shop!" and then everyone loses...
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
February 18 2013 02:12 GMT
#2256
No the problem with the current downtown was that Greenspan was attempting to reinflate the economy after the NASDAQ crash. His easy money policy fueled the housing bubble.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 18 2013 02:14 GMT
#2257
On February 18 2013 11:12 TerribleNoobling wrote:
No the problem with the current downtown was that Greenspan was attempting to reinflate the economy after the NASDAQ crash. His easy money policy fueled the housing bubble.


finally, you say something remotely true
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 18 2013 02:16 GMT
#2258
On February 18 2013 11:06 sam!zdat wrote:
how can entrepreneurs be fooled? I thought entrepreneurs were rational actors in an efficient market, who process all information perfectly and instantaneously?

I don't think it is assumed that entrepreneurs have perfect information. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point to adjusting for risk.
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
February 18 2013 02:17 GMT
#2259
Which begs the question as to why almost all industries had serious unemployment issues for four years and counting.



Well go on, if you have an alternate theory of the boom bust cycle I'm dying to hear it. The unemployment had a number of factors, not least of which was the effort to prop up wages. Any enforced minimum price leads to unsold surplus and an unsold surplus of labour is unemployment. Increases in government spending broadly burdened the economy, the Davis-Bacon act was probably the worst thing you could do (not to mention heavily racist, just like the quotas in South Africa during apartheid, with the same intent and effect)... in 1932 Hoover made some drastic increases in taxes which is obviously going to aggravate the problem, but over all the main problem with regards to unemployment was preventing wages from falling.
TerribleNoobling
Profile Joined July 2010
Azerbaijan179 Posts
February 18 2013 02:18 GMT
#2260
On the other hand if you contrast the great depression with the little panic at the beginning of the 20's, when harding was in office, harding did nothing just cut taxes and the problem went away instantly. yet the more hoover and then FDR tried to solve this problem the worse it became.... hmmm
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