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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On March 17 2018 15:20 Mohdoo wrote: Does firing McCabe help Trump against Mueller in some way? Seems like a really unnecessary use of political capital. I really wouldn't give Trump credit for thinking that far ahead. He's famously vindictive and petty, and that fits perfectly with his actions. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23188 Posts
Then he's going to write a book and be a hero again, even though he won't have accomplished much of anything but clearing Trump of the constant accusations of collaborating with Russia. Personally I'd be pissed if I had worked out a deal for Russia to back me and even Mueller says they gave up before the race was over. | ||
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Wulfey_LA
932 Posts
On March 17 2018 16:36 Amui wrote: I really wouldn't give Trump credit for thinking that far ahead. He's famously vindictive and petty, and that fits perfectly with his actions. I actually think that the tail wags the dog here. FOX has been running Emmanuel Goldstein agitprop on McCabe for months. Trump is replacing his economic advisor with a guy from the TV who has never made a correct prediction (Kudlow). Trump watches 6 hours of TV a day and never misses FOXNFRIENDS. That makes me think he just saw all the McCabe nonsense and decided he had enough of this Goldstein guy. EDIT: From today, but you know there are heaps of clips like this. http://video.foxnews.com/v/5752433942001/?#sp=show-clips | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On March 17 2018 14:07 CorsairHero wrote: Planned all along? Nothing inspires hard working men more than a political firing of a 20 year career agent, planned upfront to fuck up his pension that he would get this sunday. All because his wife had political views not to the presidents/Fox News liking | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On March 17 2018 17:32 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/974859881827258369 Nothing inspires hard working men more than a political firing of a 20 year career agent, planned upfront to fuck up his pension that he would get this sunday. All because his wife had political views not to the presidents/Fox News liking Making America Great Again, one destroyed life at a time. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23188 Posts
That's separate than the Russiagate stuff, but it pains me to see people that fancy themselves on the left loving so hard on the FBI lately, just to stick it to Trump. | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
On March 17 2018 18:44 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't really understand all the empathy for McCabe or disagree that there are a lot of lies and corruption at the FBI. Or that McCabe came up under Comey and was an important part of the "counter terrorism" work at the FBI I mentioned before that both McCabe and Comey hang their hats on. That's separate than the Russiagate stuff, but it pains me to see people that fancy themselves on the left loving so hard on the FBI lately, just to stick it to Trump. nothing to do with fbi but another example of trump being a vindictive snowflake | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23188 Posts
On March 17 2018 18:55 CorsairHero wrote: nothing to do with fbi but another example of trump being a vindictive snowflake That's kinda exactly what I'm saying. People are pretending to care about a not very good person being fired from a mostly immoral job, that he got by doing some pretty immoral things, to call Trump a snowflake. Most likely what comes next is the attempt to turn the FBI into not a terrible organization responsible for some pretty heinous actions against US citizens throughout their history. Which is the part that bothers me in particular. Take the petty shots at Trump. Continue the ongoing National Enquirer: PoliNerd style LR about the latest farts out of Maddow and the investigation, and so on, but please at least stop the caping and fawning over the FBI and the heroifying of it's leaders just to stick it to the right/Trump. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On March 17 2018 18:44 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't really understand all the empathy for McCabe or disagree that there are a lot of lies and corruption at the FBI. Or that McCabe came up under Comey and was an important part of the "counter terrorism" work at the FBI I mentioned before that both McCabe and Comey hang their hats on. That's separate than the Russiagate stuff, but it pains me to see people that fancy themselves on the left loving so hard on the FBI lately, just to stick it to Trump. Hmm. I've never been anti-FBI myself (or indeed other higher law enforcement; I generally view them as doing important work, though at times they get into shady territory), but I do see a vein of hypocrisy given how Comey himself was lambasted during Hilary's 'muh emails'. Is there not a difference, though, between defending oneself against a perceived unfairness and attempting to actually destroy faith in the entire institution of the FBI? I don't think it's an illiberal position to want to see reforms in the FBI AND wanting it defended against this public vandalism that Trump's engaging in. And whatever the position on McCabe, this stunt is a pure dick move that should be called out by absolutely everybody. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23188 Posts
On March 17 2018 19:11 iamthedave wrote: Hmm. I've never been anti-FBI myself (or indeed other higher law enforcement; I generally view them as doing important work, though at times they get into shady territory), but I do see a vein of hypocrisy given how Comey himself was lambasted during Hilary's 'muh emails'. Is there not a difference, though, between defending oneself against a perceived unfairness and attempting to actually destroy faith in the entire institution of the FBI? I don't think it's an illiberal position to want to see reforms in the FBI AND wanting it defended against this public vandalism that Trump's engaging in. And whatever the position on McCabe, this stunt is a pure dick move that should be called out by absolutely everybody. Not really "shady territory" as much as conspiring to assassinate US citizens. I suppose there's a lot bad stuff leading up to that, but that's pretty bad as an institution. Now, had someone actually been punished for that at some point, perhaps having faith in the FBI would be a reasonable proposition, but ya know, that didn't/won't happen. So it's pretty much a non-starter with me. Others do indeed find the ability to put faith in an institution that helped illegally spy on, threaten, and kill US citizens without ever imprisoning a single person responsible as a 'law enforcement' agency, but for me they remain a political enforcement agency deluded/masked by operating in the interest of "the law". That would be like putting faith in the Catholic church to monitor a national discount daycare run almost exclusively by priests for sexual abuse. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On March 17 2018 19:07 GreenHorizons wrote: That's kinda exactly what I'm saying. People are pretending to care about a not very good person being fired from a mostly immoral job, that he got by doing some pretty immoral things, to call Trump a snowflake. Most likely what comes next is the attempt to turn the FBI into not a terrible organization responsible for some pretty heinous actions against US citizens throughout their history. Which is the part that bothers me in particular. Take the petty shots at Trump. Continue the ongoing National Enquirer: PoliNerd style LR about the latest farts out of Maddow and the investigation, and so on, but please at least stop the caping and fawning over the FBI and the heroifying of it's leaders just to stick it to the right/Trump. .A few more years of firing people and purging government employees not aligned with Trump, more years of removing people with sense of duty and a brain with pure sycophants and you'll see how that will treat you. It's hard not to cheer for the FBI if their leaders are on the receiving side of this insane quest to move to a post factual authoritarian society. That doesn't mean FBI is a flawless organisation but it's for sure a better organisation to have laying down the law, than the Trump organisation | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Subject to the eventual release of the two reports, purported to show he leaked sensitive materials to the WSJ and subsequently lied about it to Congress. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21650 Posts
Nah... that would be crazy talk... | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Trump leaves office, and everybody suddenly rediscovers that these are civil servants charged with a duty on investigations and oversight. The IG and an internal office at least appear to be concerned that justice doesn’t take four-year breaks under Republicans. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23188 Posts
On March 17 2018 20:11 Gorsameth wrote: Its almost like there is a level of nuance possible that one can hold the opinion that the FBI could do a better job and that their leaders should not be fired by the President in petty vindictive ways for failing to kiss the ring. Nah... that would be crazy talk... This "they could do a better job, "a little shady" euphemisms are basically exactly what I'm talking about. Though US liberals typically go much further. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On March 17 2018 19:37 GreenHorizons wrote: Not really "shady territory" as much as conspiring to assassinate US citizens. I suppose there's a lot bad stuff leading up to that, but that's pretty bad as an institution. Now, had someone actually been punished for that at some point, perhaps having faith in the FBI would be a reasonable proposition, but ya know, that didn't/won't happen. So it's pretty much a non-starter with me. Others do indeed find the ability to put faith in an institution that helped illegally spy on, threaten, and kill US citizens without ever imprisoning a single person responsible as a 'law enforcement' agency, but for me they remain a political enforcement agency deluded/masked by operating in the interest of "the law". That would be like putting faith in the Catholic church to monitor a national discount daycare run almost exclusively by priests for sexual abuse. I don't have an exhaustive understanding of the FBI so I may well be too kind towards it, but an organisation like the FBI is in the position of dealing with crimes at a higher level than the police. They deal with big stuff that has big consequences if they fuck it up, and the margin between justified action and unjustifiable abuse of power is pretty thin at times. Take the example you linked. Was the FBI in the wrong? Yep. But can't you see a flipside article about how that guy murdered 50 people and 'THE FBI KNEW ABOUT THIS DANGEROUS TERRORIST AND DID NOTHING'? They provided materiale, but the man himself said he wanted to do it. I think the FBI overstepped its bounds, but then I'd also say they should have done something if they hadn't and he'd become an actual terrorist. For all the article wanted to build a specific story, all I saw there was 'terrorist without means'. Maybe he'd never have done anything himself, but he sure could have if he'd fallen under the wing of an actual terrorist. I mean, that's exactly how terrorist cells are built. Usually one guy has the means, and the charisma to recruit a bunch of willing rubes who don't. You and I get to judge from the sidelines because we don't have to make decisions that can cost dozens of lives. I suspect a lot of the time the FBI agents aren't 100% sure they're doing the right thing, but would rather not take the risk of doing the wrong thing. What were you referring to on the assassination point, though? That does sound pretty bad. On March 17 2018 20:24 GreenHorizons wrote: This "they could do a better job, "a little shady" euphemisms are basically exactly what I'm talking about. Though US liberals typically go much further. The difference, it seems to me, is whether or not you believe the FBI's job is necessary. If you believe it is, then you have to take at worst a grit your teeth and bear it approach while pushing for reforms and improved oversight. I'm guessed you'd like it burnt to the ground? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21650 Posts
On March 17 2018 20:23 Danglars wrote: I share GH’s bewilderment at the left’s newfound love for the CIA and FBI. There’s too little caution about acting with impunity to trample civil liberties because Trump is so-bad and everybody is automatically justified in sensitive or criminal leaks and lying or misleading congressional oversight. Trump leaves office, and everybody suddenly rediscovers that these are civil servants charged with a duty on investigations and oversight. The IG and an internal office at least appear to be concerned that justice doesn’t take four-year breaks under Republicans. Again, you can hold not love for the FBI and think that the President should not be firing people in purely vindictive ways for failing to kill the ring. The two are not mutually exclusive at all. How is this so hard to understand. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 17 2018 11:20 ChristianS wrote: Ugh. ~46% of the voting population picked Trump in 2016. I'm fine with acknowledging that. I'm also fine with acknowledging that the thread is more anti-Trump than the country as a whole. Literally all this boils down to is using the phrase "country at large," a very clearly broad term. We can play the game where I google the definition of "at large" and try to show that the idiom is, by nature, broad and all-inclusive, but that's all fucking pointless because all I need to show is that the people who were correcting you read it as "country at large = the whole country," not "country at large = the 120 million or w/e that voted in 2016." All this other shit you're throwing out about "you're the real post-factual one, you're projecting, you're in denial" is completely irrelevant and borderline ad hominem. At this point I'm thinking you've either given up on any hope of a good-faith discussion in this thread and you just wanna score points, or you've got some grudge against me for something I said at somd point. If it's the former, be good enough to let me know so I can stop bothering to engage with you. If it's the latter, just bring up what you're mad about instead of this passive aggressive shit. I still really hope it's neither, but I'm having trouble coming up with another explanation for how perpetually aggro you've been. Edit: to my recollection I have never called you a racist. Google subordinate clauses while you’re at it. I’m way overindulging conversations stemming from one troll that thought a current job approval rating was at all relevant. Percentage of Trump voters in this forum compared to the country at large. Cleanliness of Austin facilities compared to the country at large. You don’t get to claim ambiguity in service of a reading against the authors intent. You’re simply dishonest, but not as bad as some others in the forum based on accompanying stipulations. My surmises regarding what motivates you is only of interest since I misread your character from past exchanges. I see no point to continue it. You fit in very well in the Trump reactionary zeitgeist. In two or six more years, I’ll see if everyone goes back to normal (or maybe pretend complaisance). | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 17 2018 20:28 Gorsameth wrote: Again, you can hold not love for the FBI and think that the President should not be firing people in purely vindictive ways for failing to kill the ring. The two are not mutually exclusive at all. How is this so hard to understand. In this case, it is alleged that he betrayed the standards of his office and lied/mislead his offices oversight. It’s not about “kissing the ring.” It’s not very hard to understand. The only refuge is pretending Sessions made the whole thing up, and didn’t receive reports of the kind he described. I suggest residing there if you want a leg to stand on. | ||
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