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Japan6156 Posts
On November 19 2012 08:14 Azarkon wrote:Yeah, and here's a quote from Mead that is expressing what I was expressing earlier, though I was talking about political policy while he's talking about military policy. Show nested quote +From this perspective, the kind of tit-for-tat limited warfare that the doctrine of proportionality would require is a recipe for unending war: for decades of random air strikes, bombs and other raids. An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity. A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war.
Never seen so much entitled douchebaggery in my life, how I wish the muslim world was more united and responsive towards this, would make things a little bit more even, 72 palestinians to 3 israelis was it? They always get the bad end of the deal.
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This conflict is not gonna end with Israel winning over the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people. If you suggest that Israel should not target militants (at high civilian casualty rates), suggest an alternative. Spewing rhetoric isn't helping anyone.
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On November 19 2012 09:31 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 08:14 Azarkon wrote:Yeah, and here's a quote from Mead that is expressing what I was expressing earlier, though I was talking about political policy while he's talking about military policy. From this perspective, the kind of tit-for-tat limited warfare that the doctrine of proportionality would require is a recipe for unending war: for decades of random air strikes, bombs and other raids. An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity. A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war. Never seen so much entitled douchebaggery in my life, how I wish the muslim world was more united and responsive towards this, would make things a little bit more even, 72 palestinians to 3 israelis was it? They always get the bad end of the deal.
so you'd rather see the "score" 72-72? that is sick.
the lack of israeli deaths is a result of their defensive posture with iron dome, bomb shelters, warning sirens, and the fact they've taken out a significant number of the bigger rockets in the hamas arsenal. i'm sure hamas would like to see the score a lot higher as well. israel on the other hand tries to protect it's citizens, not hide their military assets among them'
and i will end this post again by saying i hope for a quick, tangible ceasefire so nobody else needs lose their life.
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On November 19 2012 09:50 Feartheguru wrote:
This conflict is not gonna end with Israel winning over the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people. If you suggest that Israel should not target militants (at high civilian casualty rates), suggest an alternative. Spewing rhetoric isn't helping anyone.
At this point I don't think a two state solution would even be viable anymore. There would have to be some sort of one state solution with Palestinians having second-class citizenship, but Israelis taking responsibility for their general welfare.
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On November 19 2012 09:50 bahunto28 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:31 IshinShishi wrote:On November 19 2012 08:14 Azarkon wrote:Yeah, and here's a quote from Mead that is expressing what I was expressing earlier, though I was talking about political policy while he's talking about military policy. From this perspective, the kind of tit-for-tat limited warfare that the doctrine of proportionality would require is a recipe for unending war: for decades of random air strikes, bombs and other raids. An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity. A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war. Never seen so much entitled douchebaggery in my life, how I wish the muslim world was more united and responsive towards this, would make things a little bit more even, 72 palestinians to 3 israelis was it? They always get the bad end of the deal. so you'd rather see the "score" 72-72? that is sick. the lack of israeli deaths is a result of their defensive posture with iron dome, bomb shelters, warning sirens, and the fact they've taken out a significant number of the bigger rockets in the hamas arsenal. i'm sure hamas would like to see the score a lot higher as well. israel on the other hand tries to protect it's citizens, not hide their military assets among them' and i will end this post again by saying i hope for a quick, tangible ceasefire so nobody else needs lose their life.
He didn't say that. He said how sick it is to have such a one sided result, because it goes on to show you who really pulls the strings in this war. I am sure if it was reversed, for example 3 palestinians and 72 israelis dead, you and your other comrades would be the first one to jump. But yeah, Muslim blood is cheap nowadays. Chechenya, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Somalia, Mali. Better let them die, so we can be safe here in the West, amirite? Such hypocrisy. I guess it easy to sit comfortably in a chair and speculate how it is better for the future of the world to have a few hundred Palestinian die, because for you they appear only as numbers. I'd ask you what your response would be if you were the one who lost a father, a mother, a son, a cousin or some other relative as a result of an airstrike.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
this whole development is beginning to become a deep cause for pessimism. a full realization of this fact is necessary for tackling the real problem, which is that the liberal framework is utterly whitewashing the deep dark side of humanity. an open confrontation against this is needed.
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I love how everyone is perfectly fine with running Jews out of their homes in order to put the grandchildren of people who were "run" out of their homes back in those homes....
like I said earlier, if this was really about statehood or persecution, people would not be looking at Israel, they would be looking at the Muslim world.
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On November 19 2012 09:58 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:50 bahunto28 wrote:On November 19 2012 09:31 IshinShishi wrote:On November 19 2012 08:14 Azarkon wrote:Yeah, and here's a quote from Mead that is expressing what I was expressing earlier, though I was talking about political policy while he's talking about military policy. From this perspective, the kind of tit-for-tat limited warfare that the doctrine of proportionality would require is a recipe for unending war: for decades of random air strikes, bombs and other raids. An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity. A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war. Never seen so much entitled douchebaggery in my life, how I wish the muslim world was more united and responsive towards this, would make things a little bit more even, 72 palestinians to 3 israelis was it? They always get the bad end of the deal. so you'd rather see the "score" 72-72? that is sick. the lack of israeli deaths is a result of their defensive posture with iron dome, bomb shelters, warning sirens, and the fact they've taken out a significant number of the bigger rockets in the hamas arsenal. i'm sure hamas would like to see the score a lot higher as well. israel on the other hand tries to protect it's citizens, not hide their military assets among them' and i will end this post again by saying i hope for a quick, tangible ceasefire so nobody else needs lose their life. He didn't say that. He said how sick it is to have such a one sided result, because it goes on to show you who really pulls the strings in this war. I am sure if it was reversed, for example 3 palestinians and 72 israelis dead, you and your other comrades would be the first one to jump. But yeah, Muslim blood is cheap nowadays. Chechenya, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Somalia, Mali. Better let them die, so we can be safe here in the West, amirite? Such hypocrisy. I guess it easy to sit comfortably in a chair and speculate how it is better for the future of the world to have a few hundred Palestinian die, because for you they appear only as numbers. I'd ask you what your response would be if you were the one who lost a father, a mother, a son, a cousin or some other relative as a result of an airstrike.
my point was the result is one-sided because the israelis are doing whatever they can to protect their citizenry. it is not because hamas isn't striving to maximize casualties. that is why hamas started using suicide bombings tactics back in 1994 when the Oslo accords were still progressing. the war is assymetrical because israel has greater technology, training, capacity. it is unreasonable to think any country would fight a war based on proportionality. wars are fought to be won through sapping the will/ability of the opponent to continue fighting.
for the record, i do not cheer whenever a palestinian dies. the attack today that killed 10 people to get the one hamas guy makes me sad. all human life is sacred. as i will state at the end of each post since you like to misconstrue intent, i hope a comprehensive ceasefire is reached soon so NOBODY else loses a life.
EDIT: to answer your question directly. i would mourn their deaths. i would hope that the government of my country (canada in this case) is doing the utmost to ensure the safety of my family. and now a direct question to you: what steps should both hamas and israel have taken to protect its citizens?
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Hamas does nothing to protect the palastines. They arent interested in anything else with a full scale war between the jews and muslims. Isreal should keep killing Hamas wherever they find them, and hopefully keep the casulaties as low as possible. I personally hope that the palastines will take arms, and throw Hamas out and make peace with Isreal.
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Ariel Sharon was a corrupt brutal fucker, his son has no influence whatsoever. I don't see the fuss.
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On November 19 2012 09:58 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:50 bahunto28 wrote:On November 19 2012 09:31 IshinShishi wrote:On November 19 2012 08:14 Azarkon wrote:Yeah, and here's a quote from Mead that is expressing what I was expressing earlier, though I was talking about political policy while he's talking about military policy. From this perspective, the kind of tit-for-tat limited warfare that the doctrine of proportionality would require is a recipe for unending war: for decades of random air strikes, bombs and other raids. An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity. A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war. Never seen so much entitled douchebaggery in my life, how I wish the muslim world was more united and responsive towards this, would make things a little bit more even, 72 palestinians to 3 israelis was it? They always get the bad end of the deal. so you'd rather see the "score" 72-72? that is sick. the lack of israeli deaths is a result of their defensive posture with iron dome, bomb shelters, warning sirens, and the fact they've taken out a significant number of the bigger rockets in the hamas arsenal. i'm sure hamas would like to see the score a lot higher as well. israel on the other hand tries to protect it's citizens, not hide their military assets among them' and i will end this post again by saying i hope for a quick, tangible ceasefire so nobody else needs lose their life. He didn't say that. He said how sick it is to have such a one sided result, because it goes on to show you who really pulls the strings in this war. I am sure if it was reversed, for example 3 palestinians and 72 israelis dead, you and your other comrades would be the first one to jump. But yeah, Muslim blood is cheap nowadays. Chechenya, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Somalia, Mali. Better let them die, so we can be safe here in the West, amirite? Such hypocrisy. I guess it easy to sit comfortably in a chair and speculate how it is better for the future of the world to have a few hundred Palestinian die, because for you they appear only as numbers. I'd ask you what your response would be if you were the one who lost a father, a mother, a son, a cousin or some other relative as a result of an airstrike.
of course Israel is pulling the strings, they've been goaded into this conflict by the inexcusable firing on Israeli cities for the past few years.
Your notion that this would be more 'fair' if the death toll was even is laughable.
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Germany78 Posts
israel is limiting everything that gets into gaza. Food, power supply, water, trade, everything. Gaza is the biggest modern man made ghetto in the world. The fuck can they do. If u have nothing to fight with, how would u try to protect people? right? its human nature to fight assymetric if theres no military option. Thats like sayin the exil french government during ww2 was a terorist organization and cruelties to french people out of revenge form the nazis were rightfull because the saboteurs hided between the civil people. Same tactics that are used in every fucking conflict build up like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
The point is that israel gets so much medial coverage in the western world, that every government can act like they dont care about palestin.
NSFW: + Show Spoiler + yeah that is to a point propaganda, but it mirrors reality for those people at the best ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
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On November 19 2012 11:52 Cillas wrote:israel is limiting everything that gets into gaza. Food, power supply, water, trade, everything. Gaza is the biggest modern man made ghetto in the world. The fuck can they do. If u have nothing to fight with, how would u try to protect people? right? its human nature to fight assymetric if theres no military option. Thats like sayin the exil french government during ww2 was a terorist organization and cruelties to french people out of revenge form the nazis were rightfull because the saboteurs hided between the civil people. Same tactics that are used in every fucking conflict build up like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_UprisingThe point is that israel gets so much medial coverage in the western world, that every government can act like they dont care about palestin. NSFW: + Show Spoiler + yeah that is to a point propaganda, but it mirrors reality for those people at the best ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
your first point is not exactly true. gaza shares a border with egypt. many goods are transported in without any israeli oversight through that border, whether legally or in the tunnels which hamas directly profits from through taxation. before 2005, your assertion may have been correct.
wtf can they do? how about do NOT send rockets over the border, or snipe at soldiers and farm workers across the border, and actually care for their people. there is a direct correlation between the deteriorating conditions in gaza and the number of rockets sent over.
a nice selection of pics btw. i'm sure someone will no doubt soon be posting pics of bleeding israeli babies or the dead pregnant woman who was killed on thursday. point is, this conflict was provoked by hamas. they have the power to end it by ceasing their rocket fire. i wonder if their iranian patrons will let them, or just feed them more fajr-5's.
and as i end all posts on this forum, all deaths are deplorable as all life is sacred. hopefully a comprehensive ceasefire is enacted soon so NOBODY else needs to die.
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On November 19 2012 11:52 Cillas wrote:israel is limiting everything that gets into gaza. Food, power supply, water, trade, everything. Gaza is the biggest modern man made ghetto in the world. The fuck can they do. If u have nothing to fight with, how would u try to protect people? right? its human nature to fight assymetric if theres no military option. Thats like sayin the exil french government during ww2 was a terorist organization and cruelties to french people out of revenge form the nazis were rightfull because the saboteurs hided between the civil people. Same tactics that are used in every fucking conflict build up like that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_UprisingThe point is that israel gets so much medial coverage in the western world, that every government can act like they dont care about palestin. NSFW: + Show Spoiler + yeah that is to a point propaganda, but it mirrors reality for those people at the best ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
I remember seeing that last picture with a caption in the funny pictures thread several months ago.
Anyway, my view is that attempts to blame either side for the violence are pointless, and it's easy to see why both sides are fighting. To the Palestinians, Hamas looks like a humanitarian organization that gives them money for schools, police, and other social services. On the other side of the border, Israel can't NOT respond when rockets are launched into its territory; the fundamental purpose of any government is to protect its people.
In my opinion, there is no practical solution. The only thing that I think could work would be for Israel to use a strategy of total non-violence, along with massive investment from the outside world to increase the standard of living and education in the Palestinian territories. For several reasons this is not feasible in the present environment, which is why I don't see a resolution happending anytime soon.
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Can I quote wikipedia for a moment?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid
Israel said humanitarian aid confiscated from the ships would be transferred to Gaza, but that it would not transfer banned items such as cement.[46] At the same briefing, they said that they found construction equipment, including concrete and metal rods, that were not allowed into Gaza. The IDF said that all of the equipment on board was examined and none of it was in shortage in Gaza.[182] According to Israeli and Palestinian sources, Hamas refused to allow the humanitarian aid into Gaza until Israeli authorities released all flotilla detainees and allowed building materials, which are thought to make up 8,000 of the 10,000 tons of the goods, to reach them.[183][184][185] Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said, "We are not seeking to fill our (bellies), we are looking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza."[186]
Israeli newspapers commented that the situation must not be all that bad if Palestinians refused the aid. Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan responded: "We will not take any blood stained aid", and "If we accept the delivery of aid then we are legitimizing Israel's violent actions." Yet allowing: "If the Turks ask us to let the aid shipments in, we would do it."[187] On 17 June 2010, Palestinian authorities accepted the delivery of the cargo under UN supervision and coordination.[188] However, Israel stated it "will not transfer to Gaza the weapons and military equipment it had found aboard the Mavi Marmara."[149]
The point to take from the quote is that Hamas was more interested in making a political statement "we won't accept this aid unless you release the guys who attacked your boarding party". As long as the world believes that Palestinians are a bunch of poor, starving peasants who have been tortured by Israel alone, there will be no solution. When, if ever, Hamas realizes that the world is becoming more and more tired of their refusing to negotiate peace under any condition, things might change.
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Might makes right. When Gaddhafi bombed civilians, the entire world condemned him. Israel does it, and people just say that they have a right to deal with their internal affairs (but err yeah, killing is bad).
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On November 19 2012 12:59 Abraxas514 wrote:Can I quote wikipedia for a moment? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raidShow nested quote +Israel said humanitarian aid confiscated from the ships would be transferred to Gaza, but that it would not transfer banned items such as cement.[46] At the same briefing, they said that they found construction equipment, including concrete and metal rods, that were not allowed into Gaza. The IDF said that all of the equipment on board was examined and none of it was in shortage in Gaza.[182] According to Israeli and Palestinian sources, Hamas refused to allow the humanitarian aid into Gaza until Israeli authorities released all flotilla detainees and allowed building materials, which are thought to make up 8,000 of the 10,000 tons of the goods, to reach them.[183][184][185] Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said, "We are not seeking to fill our (bellies), we are looking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza."[186]
Israeli newspapers commented that the situation must not be all that bad if Palestinians refused the aid. Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan responded: "We will not take any blood stained aid", and "If we accept the delivery of aid then we are legitimizing Israel's violent actions." Yet allowing: "If the Turks ask us to let the aid shipments in, we would do it."[187] On 17 June 2010, Palestinian authorities accepted the delivery of the cargo under UN supervision and coordination.[188] However, Israel stated it "will not transfer to Gaza the weapons and military equipment it had found aboard the Mavi Marmara."[149] The point to take from the quote is that Hamas was more interested in making a political statement "we won't accept this aid unless you release the guys who attacked your boarding party". As long as the world believes that Palestinians are a bunch of poor, starving peasants who have been tortured by Israel alone, there will be no solution. When, if ever, Hamas realizes that the world is becoming more and more tired of their refusing to negotiate peace under any condition, things might change.
Makes me curious though, how many weapons exactly were Hamas going to make with cement and other construction materials that Israel won't let them into Palestine?
Also, that page seems to show that the UN and people in general have a pretty poor view of Israel's actions in this instance, so I can't really say that Hamas comes off as the worse party here.
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So many peaceful peoples on the Internets. It's easy to say people should not retaliate with violence but from personal experience i can only tell that if someone is to hurt me or my family I'll give them Jihad in return and I'm not even Muslim nor Jewish or Christian.
I spent 10 years in Israel as a Kid from 1990 first golf war to around end of 1999, those who tell you that the majority of the people in the region want peace and aren't racist are plain liers. I have memories of my entire primary school class chanting death to Arabs on daily occasions and I was not attending some extreme religious school it was just a normal school.. Teachers would normal be present and not say anything ever. Eventually my parents realized we have no future in the Jewland because they actually look your passport and if it doesn't say that you are a Jew then road is closed in many career opportunities and moved to Australia.
Its exactly the same extremism on the opposite side, I just hope normal none Israeli or Palestine people dont lose lifes over them fighting their 1000 year war.
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Germany78 Posts
can u read the wikipedia article on the blockade. thanks.
And to state a question, why should they end the rocket fire? The UN doesnt recognize the human catastrophy there because the USA blocks everything. No one recognizes it. So what would they achieve? They still would get overruled by israel. Israel still would build more and more illegal settlements. Sanctions wont stop. (Even if hamas were to stop it, there are other factions, so israel would always have a reason, and if its not rockets there will be every crime called as political motivated).
Racism is a well known factor there(in both sides).
But because Israel is the way bigger military power there, THEY can do what they want, they can stop everything. They can stop the airstrikes, the racism, the settlements. EVERYTHING.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HFknO.jpg)
