Good article by W.R. Mead that pretty much 100% accurately explains how I and most Americans look at the conflict.
Yeah, and here's a quote from Mead that is expressing what I was expressing earlier, though I was talking about political policy while he's talking about military policy.
From this perspective, the kind of tit-for-tat limited warfare that the doctrine of proportionality would require is a recipe for unending war: for decades of random air strikes, bombs and other raids. An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity. A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war.
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
On November 19 2012 07:52 Sweetfrost wrote: Those who claim that Isreal are trying to minimize civilian casualties to a high degree are lost. Today more then 10 civilians died including children when they conducted their bombings against Gaza. Just think how important those 10 lives are to some of the people in Gaza. Or the mother who lost her child to the Isreali bombing. This are brutal acts of destruction commited by a goverment. How can they gain such large support? I find this absurd!
Israel has dropped over 1,000 bombs on different targets in gaza, one of the most crowded place on earth. This operation is taking place because of inaccurate rockets fired in order to kill and terrorize the civilian population. Yes its sad when Innocent civilians die, but i dont see any other option then taking that risk when hamas stores weapons, fires and meet in civilian areas. The bombing in which civilians died today also killed a Hamas military commander who was the target of the strike.
And created 10 others.
I understand the inclination to be like fuck these guys just bomb em.. and accept the collateral. Its something we have explored aswell at times but ultimately and for better sense + Show Spoiler +
On November 19 2012 05:01 Phoenix2003 wrote: Why won't the Isrealis just GO BACK TO EUROPE? (And take white americans with you)
But they are finally home... You know what home is?
Go to the Israeli government website and look at archaeological evidence that they have found, all of them support civilization existing at set time periods, but none of them (as far as I know) indicate that it was specifically Jewish settlements. This is Israeli funded digs with every intent and purpose of finding evidence that they belong there, and they haven't turned up anything.
Also, a home is an abstract idea, to the British settlers of North America, Canada / USA is their home now, not Britain. They have no right to claim land on an abstract idea of where you belong. The Caucasian US population of a specific Christian religious affliation can't invade Britain and drive them out simply between there are immigrant populations in Britain and that they once belonged there. The "organic bond" between people and land is also in staunch opposition of enlightenment era Jewish values from the early 20th century.
Of course they didn't. If a man's ancestry comes from Germany, how can he possibly be from the Middle East? So some people imply there was civilization in ancient Canaan? Everyone knows that. But that doesn't mean at all that all Jews, like for example from the nether-reaches of northern Russia, originally came from the Mideast. Certainly a few Jews are actually from the ancient Levant, but pretty much all of them are not. This is a common misconception that people like pushing for almost no reason. It's like claiming all Christians come from Italy or Judah. ...
There is this thing called proselytization. It's one way in which religions spread. Judaism, like any other religion, had this as well. This is effectively how Judaism spread to the most random places like Germany, Russia, Britain, etc. Masses of Mideastern people didn't go over there lol. Just because people follow a certain religion doesn't mean they come from a certain location originally. This is a misleading claim pushed by Zionism. Fact of the matter is, most Jews in Israel come from Europe. I don't know why people are denying this. I'm not trying to make any other point than disregarding the ludicrous claim that "If X's religion = Judaism, X is from Israel".
If we're going to talk about the religion of the descendants of the ancient Hebrews, here's a real shocker for you, pretty much all of them are Muslim (with some Jews/Christians) due to Islamic proselytizing, and spoiler alert, are actually originally, culturally, and physiognomically Mideastern. Sure many Jews in Israel come from the Mideast, but the overwhelming majority come from European countries, in particular from the USSR, Germany, etc.
Also to claim that since some ancient imaginary death god said some land belongs to a people of a certain religion, that it must be true and must be enforced, is absurd beyond what I had previously imagined humans were capable of. No. There is no such thing as a religious claim to territory. That's pathetic and completely unreasonable, (although allowable when Zionists make the claim lol). Either speak of the matter in political terms or not at all.
Again, I'm not making any implicit points out of this. I just want to address a silly misconception that comes up time and time again.
On November 19 2012 08:11 PwTVOfficial wrote:
this is a short movie that explains exactly what is going on (not made by an Israeli)
And you're just straight-up lying. The guy's own YT profile says he's from Israel. His sense of Israeli nationalism just at a first glance makes the most zealous nationalistic Americans seem tame. And you're trying to claim this guy isn't Israeli at all lol?
Good article by W.R. Mead that pretty much 100% accurately explains how I and most Americans look at the conflict.
Yeah, and here's a quote from Mead that is expressing what I was expressing earlier, though I was talking about political policy while he's talking about military policy.
From this perspective, the kind of tit-for-tat limited warfare that the doctrine of proportionality would require is a recipe for unending war: for decades of random air strikes, bombs and other raids. An endless war of limited intensity is worse, many Americans instinctively feel, than a time-limited war of unlimited ferocity. A crushing blow that brings an end to the war—like General Sherman’s march of destruction through the Confederacy in 1864-65—is ultimately kinder even to the vanquished than an endless state of desultory war.
The point he is actually making is that a 'might makes right' mindset is dangerous and lacking any moral base. He's not talking about military policy, he's talking about a pervasive mindset in American society.
To give you another quote from the article:
This is the same logic by which someone like Osama bin Laden could justify his attacks on civilians at the World Trade Center, and it is the fundamental logic behind Hamas’ indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilian targets. Americans don’t like it when their enemies use this kind of logic, but it is a type of warfare they understand and they have fought and won enough of these wars in the past to be ready if necessary to do it again.
On November 19 2012 07:40 Seldentar wrote: Three good posts above
Heh, to be frank, its a blessing both parties are intelligent enough to render nuclear attack a non option. Consider it a bit of optimism in a very pessimistic situation
Edit: The Samson Option is as relevant as the political attitudes of Golda Meir. That is, it's not.
Haha, well thanks for the optimism, it is a breath of fresh air in this thread . Yes, that is definitely a blessing! lmao
Btw I didn't know anything about the geography of Israel and the surrounding areas, so when I looked at a map and immediately saw where Gaza is I facepalmed and lol'd.
I don't think you quite grasped the thesis of the article. He's not making a value judgment of whether jus in bellos is preferrable to jus ad bellum. He's saying that Americans, by and large, subscribe to the idea that proportionality, in war, is a crock. You use what you have to win. The moral dimension comes with the cause and purpose of the war, not how the war is conducted. Americans also believe in limiting the duration of wars - protracted wars are bad, and ought to be avoided.
On November 19 2012 07:40 Seldentar wrote: Three good posts above
Heh, to be frank, its a blessing both parties are intelligent enough to render nuclear attack a non option. Consider it a bit of optimism in a very pessimistic situation
Edit: The Samson Option is as relevant as the political attitudes of Golda Meir. That is, it's not.
Haha, well thanks for the optimism, it is a breath of fresh air in this thread . Yes, that is definitely a blessing! lmao
Btw I didn't know anything about the geography of Israel and the surrounding areas, so when I looked at a map and immediately saw where Gaza is I facepalmed and lol'd.
You're talking about nuking 4 million people without even knowing where they are.. Well that's just great.
On November 19 2012 07:52 Sweetfrost wrote: Those who claim that Isreal are trying to minimize civilian casualties to a high degree are lost. Today more then 10 civilians died including children when they conducted their bombings against Gaza. Just think how important those 10 lives are to some of the people in Gaza. Or the mother who lost her child to the Isreali bombing. This are brutal acts of destruction commited by a goverment. How can they gain such large support? I find this absurd!
Israel has dropped over 1,000 bombs on different targets in gaza, one of the most crowded place on earth. This operation is taking place because of inaccurate rockets fired in order to kill and terrorize the civilian population. Yes its sad when Innocent civilians die, but i dont see any other option then taking that risk when hamas stores weapons, fires and meet in civilian areas. The bombing in which civilians died today also killed a Hamas military commander who was the target of the strike.
And created 10 others.
I understand the inclination to be like fuck these guys just bomb em.. and accept the collateral. Its something we have explored aswell at times but ultimately and for better sense + Show Spoiler +
(aside form US drones)
avoided. It doesnt work. It will not work.
Sometimes they make a decision that by killing the target with some civilians, less people could die in the end. Something like dropping nuclear bombs in Japan.
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
The year is 2019, the eurozone is collapsing and after years of 40% unemployment, austerity, and violence Finland's government has fallen, replaced by a group of Norse Mytho's Valhalla believing extremists. They blame Sweden for the collapse of local fishing, and other over-consumption of goods in the region causing this unemployment and the collapse of their society. They convince young Fin's that when they die in battle serving the will of Odin they will be sent to Valhalla where they will have whores and beer and battles for all eternity. They easily re-ignite old tensions between Swede's and their own people
The Fin's use Viking suicide bomber's (as they believe they will be sent to Valhalla) and they launch rockets from populated area's within Finland into Sweden. They do this because they can't fight the Swede's in a straight up fight because they don't have the same level of technological warfare equipment.
If Sweden strikes back they will be killing innocent Fin civilians whilst fighting the enemy.
However this is exactly what the Germans want, who are really in control of the Norse Viking Mytho's extremists. They have been sending them arms and money to ensure that the Swede's are constantly caught up in an international shit storm and have to spend so much money on their military with Iron Dome type systems and extravagant border security to ensure their own civilians are not killed by Norse Mytho's extremists.
What would you want Euronyme? Would you want your government to fight back against the extremists? Killing innocent people in the process? Would you want your tax dollars spent on billion dollar missile defense systems just to stop cave man level rocket's being sent into your cities? Would you want to make peace with people that believe that when they kill you and they die they are sent to a paradise in Valhalla?
On November 19 2012 08:10 Phoenix2003 wrote: *sigh* All of this conflict can avoided if the isrealis would just go back to europe(it's not too late), but you're so goddamn arrogant. This is what happens when sick people like the isrealis and americans for that matter have so much power. So stuck in their "MIGHT MAKES RIGHT" mentality.
one problem. the majority of israeli jews are sephardic/mizrahi (generally lived in the muslim world until they were expelled after 48) vs ashkenazi (from europe). so saying "go back to europe" is not really an option.
what needs to happen is the palestinians need to elect one government, not several splinter groups/factions with different agendas, and peace talks on the final status needs to be completed. it will require israel to withdraw from various settlements or equivalent land transfers, the palestinian refugees will need to be settled somewhere (but not in israel), access to holy places needs to be guaranteed for all religions, and the palestinians will have to accept that the jewish state of israel is not going anywhere.
nobody said it would be easy. in the meantime, i hope that the conflict ends sooner than later and safety to the israeli and palestinians commenting in this thread.
EDIT: included mizrahi as sephardic jews lived mainly in north africa, whereas mizrahi lived in the eastern arab lands (including communities in israel)
On November 19 2012 07:40 Seldentar wrote: Three good posts above
Heh, to be frank, its a blessing both parties are intelligent enough to render nuclear attack a non option. Consider it a bit of optimism in a very pessimistic situation
Edit: The Samson Option is as relevant as the political attitudes of Golda Meir. That is, it's not.
Haha, well thanks for the optimism, it is a breath of fresh air in this thread . Yes, that is definitely a blessing! lmao
Btw I didn't know anything about the geography of Israel and the surrounding areas, so when I looked at a map and immediately saw where Gaza is I facepalmed and lol'd.
You're talking about nuking 4 million people without even knowing where they are.. Well that's just great.
It was a harmless question. I asked it in part to learn more about the reasons that it could not happen because I know almost nothing about the whole situation.
It would be a different story and your post would be warranted if I was some idiot saying Israel should nuke Gaza.
Also, for the record I would never support the use of a nuke in practically any situation. I wish they didn't even exist.
On November 19 2012 07:52 Sweetfrost wrote: Those who claim that Isreal are trying to minimize civilian casualties to a high degree are lost. Today more then 10 civilians died including children when they conducted their bombings against Gaza. Just think how important those 10 lives are to some of the people in Gaza. Or the mother who lost her child to the Isreali bombing. This are brutal acts of destruction commited by a goverment. How can they gain such large support? I find this absurd!
Israel has dropped over 1,000 bombs on different targets in gaza, one of the most crowded place on earth. This operation is taking place because of inaccurate rockets fired in order to kill and terrorize the civilian population. Yes its sad when Innocent civilians die, but i dont see any other option then taking that risk when hamas stores weapons, fires and meet in civilian areas. The bombing in which civilians died today also killed a Hamas military commander who was the target of the strike.
And created 10 others.
I understand the inclination to be like fuck these guys just bomb em.. and accept the collateral. Its something we have explored aswell at times but ultimately and for better sense + Show Spoiler +
(aside form US drones)
avoided. It doesnt work. It will not work.
Sometimes they make a decision that by killing the target with some civilians, less people could die in the end. Something like dropping nuclear bombs in Japan.
No one likes it. It sucks.
I think the 10 he is referring to was the 10 civilians. American and Israeli Drones/airstrikes are not effective in reaching their goal. They are counter-productive in fact. For every so called "militant" they kill, they murder 20 civilians. Each civilian has a mother, a father, a son and a family.
Ask yourself this, is there someone dear enough to you that if killed, you would fight whoever killed him unjustly to the bitter end?
On November 19 2012 08:34 Azarkon wrote: I don't think you quite grasped the thesis of the article. He's not making a value judgment of whether jus in bellos is preferrable to jus ad bellum. He's saying that Americans, by and large, subscribe to the idea that proportionality, in war, is a crock. You use what you have to win. The moral dimension comes with the cause and purpose of the war, not how the war is conducted. Americans also believe in limiting the duration of wars - protracted wars are bad, and ought to be avoided.
And he points out that by the same logic you can condone any act in warfare, for literally any random motivation. At that point you become as evil as the opponent you're trying to fight, and you determine what conduct is 'good' conduct by looking at whatever nation won. The effect of the 'jacksonian' mindset in the american public eye is that:
The whole situation strengthens the widespread American belief that Palestinian hate rather than Israeli intransigence is the fundamental reason for the Middle East impasse, and the television pictures that drive much of the world away from Israel often have the effect of strengthening the bonds between Americans and the Jewish state.
He claims that the Jacksonian attitude makes it impossible for americans to see both sides of this conflict. I can point out a couple of (american) posters in this thread that fit that description perfectly.
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
You have got to be kidding... this is literally the most misguided and hopeless post I've seen yet. Yea, the Palestinians are suffering but you only recognize the ways in which Israel contributes to this and completely ignore the massive effect from the Arab nations and their political leadership itself. Your view of the conflict and situation is so ridiculously biased and one sided it's really not possible to even debate your position.
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
The year is 2019, the eurozone is collapsing and after years of 40% unemployment, austerity, and violence Finland's government has fallen, replaced by a group of Norse Mytho's Valhalla believing extremists. They blame Sweden for the collapse of local fishing, and other over-consumption of goods in the region causing this unemployment and the collapse of their society. They convince young Fin's that when they die in battle serving the will of Odin they will be sent to Valhalla where they will have whores and beer and battles for all eternity. They easily re-ignite old tensions between Swede's and their own people
The Fin's use Viking suicide bomber's (as they believe they will be sent to Valhalla) and they launch rockets from populated area's within Finland into Sweden. They do this because they can't fight the Swede's in a straight up fight because they don't have the same level of technological warfare equipment.
If Sweden strikes back they will be killing innocent Fin civilians whilst fighting the enemy.
However this is exactly what the Germans want, who are really in control of the Norse Viking Mytho's extremists. They have been sending them arms and money to ensure that the Swede's are constantly caught up in an international shit storm and have to spend so much money on their military with Iron Dome type systems and extravagant border security to ensure their own civilians are not killed by Norse Mytho's extremists.
What would you want Euronyme? Would you want your government to fight back against the extremists? Killing innocent people in the process? Would you want your tax dollars spent on billion dollar missile defense systems just to stop cave man level rocket's being sent into your cities? Would you want to make peace with people that believe that when they kill you and they die they are sent to a paradise in Valhalla?
That is an interesting view of the mind, which should remind everyone a simple fact: any developed country facing the threat of random attacks on its population, on a daily basis, would do exactly what Israel does today in the Gaza strip. Believing that any developed country would act differently is just fooling yourself. And if anything, the actions taken by other countries in a similar situation would be even more detrimental to the civilians of the country launching the rockets, because they don't have as much experience in modern urban warfare as the IDF does (and also because some countries wouldn't actually give a shit about the collateral casualties. Should the USA or Russia be in Israel's situation, the Gaza strip would look like Grozny by now).
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
The year is 2019, the eurozone is collapsing and after years of 40% unemployment, austerity, and violence Finland's government has fallen, replaced by a group of Norse Mytho's Valhalla believing extremists. They blame Sweden for the collapse of local fishing, and other over-consumption of goods in the region causing this unemployment and the collapse of their society. They convince young Fin's that when they die in battle serving the will of Odin they will be sent to Valhalla where they will have whores and beer and battles for all eternity. They easily re-ignite old tensions between Swede's and their own people
The Fin's use Viking suicide bomber's (as they believe they will be sent to Valhalla) and they launch rockets from populated area's within Finland into Sweden. They do this because they can't fight the Swede's in a straight up fight because they don't have the same level of technological warfare equipment.
If Sweden strikes back they will be killing innocent Fin civilians whilst fighting the enemy.
However this is exactly what the Germans want, who are really in control of the Norse Viking Mytho's extremists. They have been sending them arms and money to ensure that the Swede's are constantly caught up in an international shit storm and have to spend so much money on their military with Iron Dome type systems and extravagant border security to ensure their own civilians are not killed by Norse Mytho's extremists.
What would you want Euronyme? Would you want your government to fight back against the extremists? Killing innocent people in the process? Would you want your tax dollars spent on billion dollar missile defense systems just to stop cave man level rocket's being sent into your cities? Would you want to make peace with people that believe that when they kill you and they die they are sent to a paradise in Valhalla?
That is an interesting view of the mind, which should remind everyone a simple fact: any developed country facing the threat of random attacks on its population, on a daily basis, would do exactly what Israel does today. Believing that any developed country would act differently is just fooling yourself. And if anything, the actions taken by other countries in a similar situation would be even more detrimental to the civilians of the country launching the rockets, because they don't have as much experience in modern urban warfare as the IDF does (and also because some countries wouldn't actually give a shit about the collateral casualties. Should the USA or Russia be in Israel's situation, the Gaza strip would have been burned to the ground Grozny-style by now).
This scenario barely parallels.
Sweden is not at fault for anything apparantly. Like ever. They were just whistling along minding their own business when the Fins went all cult based on some evil controlling entity and start attacking them..
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
The year is 2019, the eurozone is collapsing and after years of 40% unemployment, austerity, and violence Finland's government has fallen, replaced by a group of Norse Mytho's Valhalla believing extremists. They blame Sweden for the collapse of local fishing, and other over-consumption of goods in the region causing this unemployment and the collapse of their society. They convince young Fin's that when they die in battle serving the will of Odin they will be sent to Valhalla where they will have whores and beer and battles for all eternity. They easily re-ignite old tensions between Swede's and their own people
The Fin's use Viking suicide bomber's (as they believe they will be sent to Valhalla) and they launch rockets from populated area's within Finland into Sweden. They do this because they can't fight the Swede's in a straight up fight because they don't have the same level of technological warfare equipment.
If Sweden strikes back they will be killing innocent Fin civilians whilst fighting the enemy.
However this is exactly what the Germans want, who are really in control of the Norse Viking Mytho's extremists. They have been sending them arms and money to ensure that the Swede's are constantly caught up in an international shit storm and have to spend so much money on their military with Iron Dome type systems and extravagant border security to ensure their own civilians are not killed by Norse Mytho's extremists.
What would you want Euronyme? Would you want your government to fight back against the extremists? Killing innocent people in the process? Would you want your tax dollars spent on billion dollar missile defense systems just to stop cave man level rocket's being sent into your cities? Would you want to make peace with people that believe that when they kill you and they die they are sent to a paradise in Valhalla?
That is an interesting view of the mind, which should remind everyone a simple fact: any developed country facing the threat of random attacks on its population, on a daily basis, would do exactly what Israel does today. Believing that any developed country would act differently is just fooling yourself. And if anything, the actions taken by other countries in a similar situation would be even more detrimental to the civilians of the country launching the rockets, because they don't have as much experience in modern urban warfare as the IDF does (and also because some countries wouldn't actually give a shit about the collateral casualties. Should the USA or Russia be in Israel's situation, the Gaza strip would have been burned to the ground Grozny-style by now).
This scenario barely parallels.
Sweden is not at fault for anything apparantly. Like ever. They were just whistling along minding their own business when the Fins went all cult based on some evil controlling entity and start attacking them..
yea no.. doesnt work like that.
Easily reignite tentions. Give me a break.
What? I think Koorb was just noting that any government that didn't act the same way Israel has in the face of the same aggression would be called a failure.
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
The year is 2019, the eurozone is collapsing and after years of 40% unemployment, austerity, and violence Finland's government has fallen, replaced by a group of Norse Mytho's Valhalla believing extremists. They blame Sweden for the collapse of local fishing, and other over-consumption of goods in the region causing this unemployment and the collapse of their society. They convince young Fin's that when they die in battle serving the will of Odin they will be sent to Valhalla where they will have whores and beer and battles for all eternity. They easily re-ignite old tensions between Swede's and their own people
The Fin's use Viking suicide bomber's (as they believe they will be sent to Valhalla) and they launch rockets from populated area's within Finland into Sweden. They do this because they can't fight the Swede's in a straight up fight because they don't have the same level of technological warfare equipment.
If Sweden strikes back they will be killing innocent Fin civilians whilst fighting the enemy.
However this is exactly what the Germans want, who are really in control of the Norse Viking Mytho's extremists. They have been sending them arms and money to ensure that the Swede's are constantly caught up in an international shit storm and have to spend so much money on their military with Iron Dome type systems and extravagant border security to ensure their own civilians are not killed by Norse Mytho's extremists.
What would you want Euronyme? Would you want your government to fight back against the extremists? Killing innocent people in the process? Would you want your tax dollars spent on billion dollar missile defense systems just to stop cave man level rocket's being sent into your cities? Would you want to make peace with people that believe that when they kill you and they die they are sent to a paradise in Valhalla?
That is an interesting view of the mind, which should remind everyone a simple fact: any developed country facing the threat of random attacks on its population, on a daily basis, would do exactly what Israel does today. Believing that any developed country would act differently is just fooling yourself. And if anything, the actions taken by other countries in a similar situation would be even more detrimental to the civilians of the country launching the rockets, because they don't have as much experience in modern urban warfare as the IDF does (and also because some countries wouldn't actually give a shit about the collateral casualties. Should the USA or Russia be in Israel's situation, the Gaza strip would have been burned to the ground Grozny-style by now).
This scenario barely parallels.
Sweden is not at fault for anything apparantly. Like ever. They were just whistling along minding their own business when the Fins went all cult based on some evil controlling entity and start attacking them..
yea no.. doesnt work like that.
Easily reignite tentions. Give me a break.
Sweden was at fault for fishing out the waters and depleting natutal resources causing an economic crisis; back to reality now.
I never said it mirrored what is currently going on in Gaza, I was simply making a hypothetical situation to create a question for Euronyme to answer regarding how he would want his own country defending should there be extremists launching rocket's and suicide attacks on the people of Sweden.
It's obvious that no conflict on earth can parallel what is going on in the mid-east. But if I was in Israel's shoes, I would be doing exactly what they are doing.
On November 19 2012 07:35 Seldentar wrote: I keep having this recurring vision in my head of the Israelite vs Palestinian conflict escalating to such a degree that Israel finally says "Fuck it." and launches a nuke symbolizing the destruction of the entire opposing faction. O.o
Is there any real chance of this literally coming to fruition? Personally, I highly doubt it especially considering they seem to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible when carrying out attacks.
You should read up on the history of the middle east, the creation of the state of Israel and its wars ... And also study a map of Israel and the palestinian enclaves. There is no reason to use an atomic weapon in the first place and second they would most likly bomb themselves too ... Also using any atomic weapon would give Iran just more reasons to accelaerate their nuclear program.
The problem is that the arabic leaders and their religion or lets say at least how it is conducted fails them and to not turn the people against their leaders they need the enemy, in this case all evil Israel which needs to be destroyed according to Ahmadinechad. Why is he saying this and why are other arab leaders proposing this ? Because they are idiots without the intelligence to govern their countries in a civil and human way so they need a threat and some one to blame.
Israel has no real other option to respond and they have to respond in some way ... I really dont get it how these hisbollah and other dispshits can afford millions of money on hundred of rockets and other stuff but fail to do anything worthwile for the population they claim to protect with that money.
Death rates are completely one sided in Israel's favour though. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Israel is in any way the victim here. I'm pretty sure Hizbollah gain a large portion of their support from families to unrighteously murdered civilians and people who've had their homes bulldozered down with potential family members stuck in the debris. They probably gained some support when the Israeli army started targeting red cross vans. Even more support was probably gained when Israel started bombing white phosphorus, indiscriminately incinerating men women and children at random in the world's most tightly populated city. Perhaps when they bombed that UN camp with their precision bombs, or when they hit the magic numbers when they had more UN resolutions to stop their violence than all other countries together. How many decided to join the resistance when Israel boarded and shot up the ships on their way with food and medicinal supplies to Gaza on international water?
It's probably got more to do with vengeance, hopelessness and deep tragedy than collected economical ideas. Israel's foreign policy is atrocious at best. The only real good thing it does is to show how futile and utterly pointless the UN as an organization is when it comes to preventing genocides and wars, as the countries with veto and their allies are safe against any repercussions.
The year is 2019, the eurozone is collapsing and after years of 40% unemployment, austerity, and violence Finland's government has fallen, replaced by a group of Norse Mytho's Valhalla believing extremists. They blame Sweden for the collapse of local fishing, and other over-consumption of goods in the region causing this unemployment and the collapse of their society. They convince young Fin's that when they die in battle serving the will of Odin they will be sent to Valhalla where they will have whores and beer and battles for all eternity. They easily re-ignite old tensions between Swede's and their own people
The Fin's use Viking suicide bomber's (as they believe they will be sent to Valhalla) and they launch rockets from populated area's within Finland into Sweden. They do this because they can't fight the Swede's in a straight up fight because they don't have the same level of technological warfare equipment.
If Sweden strikes back they will be killing innocent Fin civilians whilst fighting the enemy.
However this is exactly what the Germans want, who are really in control of the Norse Viking Mytho's extremists. They have been sending them arms and money to ensure that the Swede's are constantly caught up in an international shit storm and have to spend so much money on their military with Iron Dome type systems and extravagant border security to ensure their own civilians are not killed by Norse Mytho's extremists.
What would you want Euronyme? Would you want your government to fight back against the extremists? Killing innocent people in the process? Would you want your tax dollars spent on billion dollar missile defense systems just to stop cave man level rocket's being sent into your cities? Would you want to make peace with people that believe that when they kill you and they die they are sent to a paradise in Valhalla?
That is an interesting view of the mind, which should remind everyone a simple fact: any developed country facing the threat of random attacks on its population, on a daily basis, would do exactly what Israel does today. Believing that any developed country would act differently is just fooling yourself. And if anything, the actions taken by other countries in a similar situation would be even more detrimental to the civilians of the country launching the rockets, because they don't have as much experience in modern urban warfare as the IDF does (and also because some countries wouldn't actually give a shit about the collateral casualties. Should the USA or Russia be in Israel's situation, the Gaza strip would have been burned to the ground Grozny-style by now).
This scenario barely parallels.
Sweden is not at fault for anything apparantly. Like ever. They were just whistling along minding their own business when the Fins went all cult based on some evil controlling entity and start attacking them..
yea no.. doesnt work like that.
Easily reignite tentions. Give me a break.
What? I think Koorb was just noting that any government that didn't act the same way Israel has in the face of the same aggression would be called a failure.
If a different government actually chose to maintain ceasefires when possible I think they would probably not be seen as a failure. I mean, perhaps in terms of realpolitik, but not by their people. Part of problem is that the Israeli government has no real incentive to stop the attacks since in a sense they are beneficial to the government. The Palestinians should really stop because of this, but it really makes very little difference to them either way, so it's easy to understand why they would continue attacks out of impotent frustration.
EPT
