|
Usual abortion topic rule of using baby to mean baby and foetus to mean foetus applies. These words have meaning. - KwarK |
On November 15 2012 02:11 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:40 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 01:32 Ender985 wrote:On November 15 2012 01:13 logikly wrote:
Those of us who are pro choice have these exceptions and its a shame that she wasn't allowed to have it. life of mother, Rape, Incest. I know me and every other conservative i know supports these cases. Its a true shame that both were lost. But allow me to ask you something. Those of you who are pro choice do you regard the human fetus as nothing more than a fingernail or a kidney that you can dispose of? I assume you meant "pro life", as "pro choice" is usally considered being "pro abortion". In which case I have a question for you. Why is it OK to take the life of a baby if he was product of rape? Aren't you making an innocent unborn baby pay, with his own life, for the crimes of his father? Disclamer: I myself don't have a clear cut oppinion on the topic, since any cutoff we can disscuss is essentially arbitrary. But I've always been curious about that specific point for pro-life people. The entire Pro-life stance is hypocritical on a day to day basis such that it's best to not even debate the topic anymore because they're so far gone. George Carlin says it best "preborn, you're fine, preschool you're fucked". i dont understand where you are getting this supposed hypocrisy from
It's that they spend so much time worrying about the life of the baby but once it's born the baby is on it's own.
Someone posted the video from Carlin that really puts it into a comedic presentation. Add that to the "religious rape" argument where it's god will to be pregnant and that the baby shouldn't be aborted based on that isn't hypocritical but insulting while some who are pro-life say that under rape circumstances it's different ... then murdering... a plump of cells?
|
Im see myself more as a liberal then a conservative in general. But In cases of abortion im pretty conservative.
IMO Abortion should only be legal if its an case of rape, incest, or if the baby is confirmed to be in major pain, or will be stricken will a disease that will make the baby have a short life, or majorly limit its capabilities to "live"
If the baby brings the mother's life in danger, its also a valid reason I think.
(not meaning like blind or not able to walk/work, since there are millions of happy people with those conditions)
I kinda feel like its morally wrong just to abort a baby because it doesnt fit into your life atm. In the western would it seems like a trend to fuck around untill you're like 25, then you meet your love of your life and then you get a baby. Any "accidents" before that just gets thrown in the trash.
If it takes away your job, tough luck. im sure your son/daughter will thank you later.
|
If you suppose that killing a fetus is murder, why is it okay to murder fetuses produced by rape or incest? Why is it okay to kill a baby to save the mother? Why is murder acceptable in some cases but not in others? The only logically consistent views are either abortion in all cases or abortion in no cases.
|
On November 15 2012 01:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:49 a176 wrote:
so i have a question. why don't women travel to pro-abortion countries for their abortion? say, in much the same way for same-sex marriage. Read my post that's up a little bit, Irish women do do this.
is it really that cost prohibitive to travel to england from ireland? i am just basing my judgement on regional flight prices here in NA.
|
On November 15 2012 01:54 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:49 a176 wrote:
so i have a question. why don't women travel to pro-abortion countries for their abortion? say, in much the same way for same-sex marriage. So I have a question. Why don't people have more money?
no need for smart ass replies. but also, where do they plan on getting the money to support the child if they do give birth?
|
On November 15 2012 01:49 a176 wrote:
so i have a question. why don't women travel to pro-abortion countries for their abortion? say, in much the same way for same-sex marriage.
They actually do. I heard that more and more women from denmark travel to either sweden or norway? Please dont burn me on it, been awhile since I read the article. But they travel to one of those countries to perform abortion because they allow abortion at a later time. If they find out its the wrong gender.
|
Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On November 15 2012 02:23 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 15 2012 01:49 a176 wrote:
so i have a question. why don't women travel to pro-abortion countries for their abortion? say, in much the same way for same-sex marriage. Read my post that's up a little bit, Irish women do do this. is it really that cost prohibitive to travel to england from ireland?
Well, you have to pay for the procedure too, think it's a couple of thousand pounds sterling.
|
On November 15 2012 02:25 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:54 Jormundr wrote:On November 15 2012 01:49 a176 wrote:
so i have a question. why don't women travel to pro-abortion countries for their abortion? say, in much the same way for same-sex marriage. So I have a question. Why don't people have more money? no need for smart ass replies. but also, where do they plan on getting the money to support the child if they do give birth?
I think that's the idea of a mistake and then the idea of abortion.
|
On November 15 2012 02:25 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 02:23 a176 wrote:On November 15 2012 01:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 15 2012 01:49 a176 wrote:
so i have a question. why don't women travel to pro-abortion countries for their abortion? say, in much the same way for same-sex marriage. Read my post that's up a little bit, Irish women do do this. is it really that cost prohibitive to travel to england from ireland? Well, you have to pay for the procedure too, think it's a couple of thousand pounds sterling.
ah right, i was assuming public health care/free abortion.
|
United States44408 Posts
On November 15 2012 02:20 TheRealArtemis wrote:
Im see myself more as a liberal then a conservative in general. But In cases of abortion im pretty conservative.
IMO Abortion should only be legal if its an case of rape, incest, or if the baby is confirmed to be in major pain, or will be stricken will a disease that will make the baby have a short life, or majorly limit its capabilities to "live"
If the baby brings the mother's life in danger, its also a valid reason I think.
(not meaning like blind or not able to walk/work, since there are millions of happy people with those conditions)
I kinda feel like its morally wrong just to abort a baby because it doesnt fit into your life atm. In the western would it seems like a trend to fuck around untill you're like 25, then you meet your love of your life and then you get a baby. Any "accidents" before that just gets thrown in the trash.
If it takes away your job, tough luck. im sure your son/daughter will thank you later.
Equally if you have no willing sex partners and a choice between masturbation or raping some girl and then forcing her to carry the pregnancy to completion then I'm sure the baby born from the sperm that would have ended up in your hand had you jacked off will thank you for raping the girl.
There are billions of potential lives in your hands and all of them, if they become actual lives, will have value. But that doesn't mean we should start treating them as such.
|
On November 15 2012 02:22 ZeaL. wrote:
If you suppose that killing a fetus is murder, why is it okay to murder fetuses produced by rape or incest? Why is it okay to kill a baby to save the mother? Why is murder acceptable in some cases but not in others? The only logically consistent views are either abortion in all cases or abortion in no cases.
Never said it was murder. I know its what ameican christians and other religious groups call it. Dont know what to call it myself.
In short I believe that every baby should have a shot at life. Reason why its "okay" with incest and rape, is that the psychological factor for the mother and baby that it knows its a result of incest or rape might lead to more unfortunate things. (suicide etc.)
|
On November 15 2012 02:22 ZeaL. wrote:
If you suppose that killing a fetus is murder, why is it okay to murder fetuses produced by rape or incest? Why is it okay to kill a baby to save the mother? Why is murder acceptable in some cases but not in others? The only logically consistent views are either abortion in all cases or abortion in no cases.
i suppose they could reason that rape is uncontrollable by the woman and that incest is some kind of abomination worse than murder apparently. imo the most concrete and logical way to think about it is either one or the other. otherwise you're bringing a moral argument into a moral argument and it just gets messy and conflicting
|
On November 15 2012 02:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 02:20 TheRealArtemis wrote:
Im see myself more as a liberal then a conservative in general. But In cases of abortion im pretty conservative.
IMO Abortion should only be legal if its an case of rape, incest, or if the baby is confirmed to be in major pain, or will be stricken will a disease that will make the baby have a short life, or majorly limit its capabilities to "live"
If the baby brings the mother's life in danger, its also a valid reason I think.
(not meaning like blind or not able to walk/work, since there are millions of happy people with those conditions)
I kinda feel like its morally wrong just to abort a baby because it doesnt fit into your life atm. In the western would it seems like a trend to fuck around untill you're like 25, then you meet your love of your life and then you get a baby. Any "accidents" before that just gets thrown in the trash.
If it takes away your job, tough luck. im sure your son/daughter will thank you later. Equally if you have no willing sex partners and a choice between masturbation or raping some girl and then forcing her to carry the pregnancy to completion then I'm sure the baby born from the sperm that would have ended up in your hand had you jacked off will thank you for raping the girl. There are billions of potential lives in your hands and all of them, if they become actual lives, will have value. But that doesn't mean we should start treating them as such.
Personally I dont see the point of the sperm argument. And if a guy have to choose between rape and masturbation and jerk away. Sperm isnt life yet. its the key to it, but I dont see it as a living thing. Once its confirmed in the womb of the mother I see it as life.
Please note this is my personal opinion on it. I dont care much for what the crazy christians say, nor the crazies on the other side.
|
On November 15 2012 02:35 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 02:29 KwarK wrote:On November 15 2012 02:20 TheRealArtemis wrote:
Im see myself more as a liberal then a conservative in general. But In cases of abortion im pretty conservative.
IMO Abortion should only be legal if its an case of rape, incest, or if the baby is confirmed to be in major pain, or will be stricken will a disease that will make the baby have a short life, or majorly limit its capabilities to "live"
If the baby brings the mother's life in danger, its also a valid reason I think.
(not meaning like blind or not able to walk/work, since there are millions of happy people with those conditions)
I kinda feel like its morally wrong just to abort a baby because it doesnt fit into your life atm. In the western would it seems like a trend to fuck around untill you're like 25, then you meet your love of your life and then you get a baby. Any "accidents" before that just gets thrown in the trash.
If it takes away your job, tough luck. im sure your son/daughter will thank you later. Equally if you have no willing sex partners and a choice between masturbation or raping some girl and then forcing her to carry the pregnancy to completion then I'm sure the baby born from the sperm that would have ended up in your hand had you jacked off will thank you for raping the girl. There are billions of potential lives in your hands and all of them, if they become actual lives, will have value. But that doesn't mean we should start treating them as such. Personally I dont see the point of the sperm argument. And if a guy have to choose between rape and masturbation and jerk away. Sperm isnt life yet. its the key to it, but I dont see it as a living thing. Once its confirmed in the womb of the mother I see it as life. Please note this is my personal opinion on it. I dont care much for what the crazy christians say, nor the crazies on the other side.
Calling them crazy on either side and saying you don't care for what they have to say is how you get stuck in your opinion.
|
Sometimes is just plain sucks living in Ireland (North or South) its a very backward country where the vocal minority who make decisions for the rest of us. Religion has a lot to answer for.
Shit like this is just depressing, I feel terrible for her husband, to go from happily married (I assume) and expecting a child, to planning a funeral in the space of a few days.
|
United Kingdom16710 Posts
On November 15 2012 00:29 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 00:25 Poltergeist- wrote:
I will reserve judgement for the time being. I read the article and nowhere did it say that the fetus caused the disease that killed her nor that having an abortion would have saved her. Only the husband claims it would have saved her and unless he is a doctor or someone that knows, his word doesn't mean much. I think this is smart. On the one hand, the doctors may have failed to identify that she would likely die without an abortion, in which case the law wasn't the problem. On the other, whether she had an abortion or not may not have saved her life. More information is needed before we can arrive at any useful conclusions.
People really need to read these two posts more.
|
I have to say that this title is strongly misleading... The only claims that she would have survived with an abortion are from her husband... And it didn't mention that he is a trained doctor, so I'm taking what he says with a silo of salt. Also, how do we know that he wasn't poisoning her just to get her to have an abortion???????????
|
The OP obviously misses the suffering of the millions of babies killed each year by abortions - as if her life is more valuable than any of the rest. No one wants to see suffering, but it is part of life, and condoning millions of deaths to justify a few sparse cases of a mother succumbing to death due to pregnancy is beyond far-fetched. That said, the mother has no obligation to care for the child, but cannot be complicit in its murder. In other words, I take a middle position - evictionism. You can remove the baby from your womb as long as it does not result in that babies death. As technology progresses the time frame that a mother would be required to carry the baby would become less and less. No one has the right to kill (read: murder) another human being, regardless if you are a mother, a Government official, or some schmoe.
|
Lalalaland34507 Posts
I don't know about Northern Ireland law so I won't comment on it. What I do know is that the rest of the UK allows abortion up to 24 weeks gestation. After 24 weeks, abortion is only legal if:
- The mother's life is at risk if the pregnancy is allowed to continue
- The foetus suffers from gross abnormalities
- The mother is at grave risk of physical or mental injury if the pregnancy is allowed to continue.
What is also important is that although no doctor is legally required to perform an abortion if it is against his/her religion, the doctor is still legally required to refer the woman to another doctor that will be able to help her.
Regarding this article, as one of the above posts mentions, it does not clarify many things, such as whether the death was actually due to the pregnancy. That is what I'm led to believe however, and this sort of thing should never happen.
|
Vatican City State733 Posts
Why do these threads even stay open....its always the same discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
