Why the warhound should exist, what it should be. - Page 2

On September 10 2012 03:57 DusTerr wrote:


I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL.

Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball?

Sometimes air IS the answer =/

On September 10 2012 04:22 kaokentake wrote:


You just proved me right.

I said, in my OPENING POST, that **PROTOSS** has a 60 food **GROUND ARMY** that **TERRAN CANNOT COUNTER**

this means, with you asking me to **SHOW YOU** a **TERRAN ARMY** that can counter the **PROTOSS DEATHBALL**.... my answer to you is

"UMM.. can you even READ?? I said in my OP that the toss deathball is imbalanced because **THERE IS NO COUNTER**.... i said in my OP that I believe that it is a problem that there is no counter, and i believe there should be a counter"


guess what, there is no ground army zerg has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the protoss
and there is no ground army protoss has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the zerg

I feel every non-mirror matchup should be like this. No ground army should be uncounterable by another races counter-ground army.



I challenge anyone to give me a 60 food ground-army from protoss that zerg cannot counter with its own 60food ground army. Heres a hint you cant do it, because every unit in zerg/protoss has its counter on the ground in the other race.

currently, terran has no counter to immortal/collosi based armies because a immortal/collossi based army rapes marines too hard which are the counter to immortals

On September 10 2012 04:34 DusTerr wrote:


Let me rephrase; Since this does not occur in WoL, why do you believe all ground armies should have a counter ground army (that could still be countered by army1 by changing the composition)?

On September 10 2012 04:42 Sovern wrote:
An immortal/collosis based ground army can easily be beaten by a ground army of marine/ghost/thor, the terran just needs to stagger his marine's to lower the effectiveness of the colossus splash damage.

On September 10 2012 04:51 kaokentake wrote:


i got the unit tester up right now. Ill test it

4 collossi, 9immortals, thats 60food

what combination of 60food of terran should beat that?

i guess terran gets to add in 4 extra marines, because protoss adds in 4 observers to prevent observer snipes/cloaked ghosts

On September 10 2012 04:57 Iranon wrote:


When would a protoss ever attack with 4 colossi and 9 immortals? Any ground army is going to be about half gateway units...

On September 10 2012 04:37 kaokentake wrote:


because ZvP is balanced around that concept and it seems like a matchup is inherently imbalanced if a race has a uncounterable ground army. No 60food ground army in ZvP is uncounterable on either side

however in PvT, nothing terran has on the ground beats 60food of immortal/collossi

On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
Just tested it in the unit tester.

At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.

On September 10 2012 14:15 n00b1n8R wrote:


So you're saying that a Terran army costing 5000 minerals (plus 200/200 in upgrades) can't beat a Protoss army costing 6250 minerals and 2500 gas? Wow, I wonder why mass immortals haven't overtaken the TvP metagame???

On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
but in TvP, there is no balanced state on the ground. Immortals A-moved beat every terran unit

so i can UNDERSTAND what blizzards trying to do with the warhound. Blizzard wants ONE terran unit that will beat the immortal when a-moved in even food amounts. Thats why the warhound is designed with missiles that autocast and go through hardened shields.

On September 10 2012 23:35 Fairwell wrote:


I don't really understand your point. Could you explain this in detail please?

First of all I don't see how immortals can a-move beat every terran unit (marines hello? :-)) And secondly immortals are not even used all that much in a regular tvp outside of certain timings (i.e. immortal allins/timing pushes, terran going actually mech in WoL, holding a 1-1-1 allin after protoss fe (rather being that when you get allined you have to use all your production facilities to make as many units as possible to hold this allin, because there would actually be way better units vs this unit composition like phoenix, hts, colossi however when you get allined you usually don't have the time to get the necessary tech up or it's too costly to add all this tech for just one single unit when the terran allin hits), early game defence when the unit count is still low and robotics bay not ready yet).

In the later stages of the game (terran being at 3base+) and some ghosts always out on the field the immortal is just not really used at all any more (even before not as good as chargelots etc most of the time).

So basically the immortal does exactly what it should be doing. It's a unit specialised to do really well vs certain units/compositions and is just pretty bad in other situations.

Now it happens that the warhound is just a unit performs well vs all kinds of unit compositions (with its current stats even too strong but the beta has just started ... so their stats will be fixed if necessary later on) and at the same time the immortal (without adding other units into the mix like ghosts) should therefore be countered by the immortal (that's what the immortal should be able to do, nobody makes immortals against banshees, marines etc ...). So from the unit design the immortal should beat the warhound in cost/supply but obviously the terran player should be able to rape immortals if he adds other things (like emps, marines etc). But now that the warhound performs way better than the immortal in supply/cost efficiency when facing each other and is even way faster/more range etc ... this is the thing nobody really gets.

The reason why the strike canon on the thor got nerfed a while ago (Thorzain showcasting the usage of strike canon + vehicle armor upgrades vs protoss in some big tournament on XNC which made Blizzard to check this out in more detail) was not that strike canon as a skill was too powerful. The reason it got nerfed so damn hard was that for the cost in regards to the hp/dps the thor does really really well vs all kinds of protoss armies but now with the strike canon a mass thor army was able to deal with units that were supposed to counter the thor (immortals ...) all by themselves. So there was no need to add other units for the terran player and use unit compositions correctly any more which makes the game really dumb (which David Kim stated: Blizzard doesn't want to see only one unit being massed regardless what the opponent is doing) and the protoss player also had no chance of avoiding/shutting down the strike canon by using spells/positional advantage etc since strike canon was range9 and immortals shoot at range 6.

According to your logic the warhound should beat the immortal now (without any other unit added to the mix) in the unit tester. I can't seem to follow your logic and I'm eager to hear your pov why this should make sense.

On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:


At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.

I can see a point that its unfair for one unit to not have a counter-unit in another race.

On September 11 2012 02:57 BronzeKnee wrote:


This test reveals nothing. Marines would be mixed with Marauders, and have Medivacs supporting. I'm pretty sure a 100 food army of MMM balanced correctly with Stimpack used, would beat Immortals. Mix in a couple of Ghosts, and it becomes a cake walk.

Of course, if your just blindly sending units to their death A-move style, then forget it. But that isn't realistic at all.

On September 11 2012 03:26 tar wrote:



yeah but OP's reasoning apparently evolves around the idea that medivacs are air units and therefore not legit in a ground army balance discussion :D

On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals

protoss spend money on collossi instead of immortals in MOST pvt games, because collossi counter bio even harder than immortals (but immortals counter mech harder than collossi)

right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.

This way, if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, then zealots should be strong against warhounds because zealots beat immortals but are immune to warhounds missiles.

This would give terran a unit they need to complete mech, a unit that actually fights the immortal but is bad against zealots. Warhound speed should be reduced to thor speed as well so its slow like mech and cant kite zealots.

On September 11 2012 03:52 Fairwell wrote:


By "lightly counter" are you actually talking about warhounds still countering immortals but not as hard as it is now (cause that's how I did understand your initial post) or do you mean that immortals should be more cost/supply efficient in a straight up only immortal vs warhound battle (which should never happen but just for the sake of comparing the unit counters in theory)?

If it's the first one then I missunderstood you and I'm totally on your side (balance wise) but nevertheless the warhound would still have a pretty dumb unit design. If it's the latter then I'm a bit clueless as to why it should be this way.