|
*** i gave this thread a bad name. a better name for this thread would be ""why blizzard wants the warhound to exist. how to make it not overpowered if its not removed" ***
i preferr it if warhounds were removed
im just brainstorming ways to take the stupidly designed unit blizzard has created, and hopefully make it not overpowered. it cant be allowed to obliterate immortals and trade evenly with zealots, thats all im trying to say, because thats overpowered.
Just tested it in the unit tester.
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.
I can see a point that its unfair for one unit to not have a counter-unit in another race.
but the notion that immortals beat bio is wrong. Mainly because immortals lose before max upgrades, immortals lose in a real game where toss will have some gateway units, and immortals lose EVEN IF its pure immortal because mules allow terran to have a 13supply larger army, and with a 13supply larger bio army the immortals lose EVEN WITH max upgrades
However immortals still decimate mech which is the problem blizzards trying to fix.
i tried 5 medivacs 50marines 20marauders in the tester right now
the test was interesting
5 medivacs, 50marines, 20marauders got completely owned by 100food immortals. but thats only at max upgrades. immortals get stronger than marines when both are upgraded.
marines beat them before upgrades are in play. and its very hard for protoss to get 3-3-3, and marines probably win when immortals are only 3-3 (before shield upgrades)
however, with only 13 more food, 55 marines, 24 marauders, 5 medivacs, the terran army COMPLETELY SHREDS the immortals and has 30 food remaining. This is at max upgrades. before max upgrades the terran wins with 55+ food remaining because immortals dont 2shot marines until upgrades are maxed.
I think this is a big deal because terran has mules allowing terran to easily be 13 or more army supply ahead of the protoss at all times. Because mules allow the terran to live with 40 SCV's lategame while protoss NEEDS 60+ to be competitive
Also, the army was pure immortals. Throw in some gateway and the protoss loses extremely hard
So i guess immortals arent as big of a problem vs bio as i sort of implied. Bio does shred immortals given these details, and obviously every protoss wants to use 100% of their robo production on collossi instead of immortals because collossi are much better against bio
So I admit my details were a bit misleading. The terran wins if hes 13food up which he pretty much should always be. But thats when going bio he wins. When going mech blizzard probably still thought immortals were too strong against mech
so i can UNDERSTAND what blizzards trying to do with the warhound. Blizzard wants ONE terran unit that will beat the immortal when a-moved in even food amounts. Thats why the warhound is designed with missiles that autocast and go through hardened shields.
But the problem is, warhounds are too fast (faster than zealots), and they currently OBLITERATE immortals in even food amounts.
50food immortals a-moving 50food sieged tanks dont OBLITERATE the tanks, instead all the tanks die but PLENTY immortals die.
it should be the same for the warhound. the 100food warhound army should not OBLITERATE the immortals, instead it should win handily while still losing at least 80-85% of its own units. That is a proper counter unit.
|
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
|
On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
How to demolish a wall of text in 3 minutes.
|
try again now, tank get +7 instead of +5, this can make difference
|
You are trying to balance armies with simple food for food equations.
With this logic you could easily claim that roaches are a worthless unit because food for food they can barley beat anything.
And the problem with mech isn't only that it dies to a good protoss compositions but also that even when it wins it still needs to survive a warpgate remax.
Otherwise late-game macrogames will always turn against meching player and this style of play will become restricted to an all-in fest.
|
What the hell is a 60 food immortal/colossus army? an army that only consists of these units? Then your whole argumentation is invalid, because such an army does not exist.
An Immortal/colossus BASED army with zealots/stalkers and sentries can easily get beaten by terrans, it depends on the right viking count and then MMM rips apart the rest.
Also, Add 3 Ghosts to your mech army, emp the immortals and see who wins now, even with 100 supply.
|
On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
Immortals aren't even the real problem. Chargelots stomp mech.
|
On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:[...]
But I recently went into the unit tester and wow, immortal/collossi is MUCH stronger against mech than I thought.
[...]
Testing a composition that relies heavily on positioning and abusing terrain in the unit tester is a horrible way of trying to reach some sort of conclusion regarding if it's feasible or not. If you go mech, using chokepoints, hugging cliffs and putting up blocking buildings greatly increase your fighting strength.
On September 09 2012 20:18 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals. Immortals aren't even the real problem. Chargelots stomp mech.
Battle hellions are basically what terran should need to make mech viable against toss in that regard. More things against immortals and stalkers is pointless since that isn't the problem.
|
On September 09 2012 19:59 Garmer wrote:
try again now, tank get +7 instead of +5, this can make difference
You mean tank get +3(+4) per upgrade?
|
On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
It's not just fair? This is the whole game design! Why would there be air units if u did not need to use them? Also, why can collossi be hit by air if making air units to counter them isn t the way?
Please keep in mind, Terran bio will need air any day to survive a game that goes past the 10 minute mark: it's called the medivac, thus giving any bio player the option to produce vikings as well.
And speaking of a pure Immortal/Colossi army: u cannot possibly compare a composition like that foodwise: How is a Protoss going to build up such an army without dying to basically any push before one reaches 100 supply?!
Of course there are units that if u have time to max out on will just roflstomp a usual composition--> e.g. max on carriers or BCs. The important figure in those cases isn t food, but cost(esp gas)&building time.
|
On September 09 2012 21:02 Gheizen64 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:59 Garmer wrote:
try again now, tank get +7 instead of +5, this can make difference You mean tank get +3(+4) per upgrade?
they do 50 vs armored right? with +1 up was 55 right? now is 57
|
I guess my main point is that in ZvP, zerg has no ground army that is uncounterable by a protoss counter-ground-army, and protoss has no ground army that is uncounterable by a zerg counter-ground-army
I believe ground is the most important area to balance. However even air is balanced in zvp because no zerg air army is uncounterable by a protoss air counter army and no protoss air army is uncounterable by a zerg counter air army
But in PvT, that imbalance actually exists, meaning if a game ever got to the point where a protoss was defensive and can make these units, they are inherently overpowered against terran without any ground answer existing for terran. Terran can still win with air units but I think "make air units" is a unfair solution.
I understand most terrans will want bio with medivacs and things like that, but im just talking mostly composition based it feels unfair for protoss to have a unbeatable ground composition. Each composition should be counterable by another race and that counter should also have its counter.
|
|
|
On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
Get something in a fucking other tech branch with other upgrades and different infrastructure. And you can't forget Collosi, the would melt ghost before the EMP could hit. Better just mass BCs like MVP did.
The problem is not that is totally unviable. The problem it is so fucking hard to use, you need good position, good micro and if you fail, all Protoss stuff would just happly a-move against it. Chargelots, Immortals and Blinkstalkers roflstomp uit without almost any Micro at all
Finally Terran is getting a unit that can stop this bullshit and everyone is bitching about how much "casual" it is. It is sad.
|
On September 09 2012 23:49 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals. Get something in a fucking other tech branch with other upgrades and different infrastructure. And you can't forget Collosi, the would melt ghost before the EMP could hit. Better just mass BCs like MVP did. The problem is not that is totally unviable. The problem it is so fucking hard to use, you need good position, good micro and if you fail, all Protoss stuff would just happly a-move against it. Chargelots, Immortals and Blinkstalkers roflstomp uit without almost any Micro at all Finally Terran is getting a unit that can stop this bullshit and everyone is bitching about how much "casual" it is. It is sad.
I don't think getting ghosts is a big deal upgrade wise. It's a caster, dude. It shits on stuff with spells not autoattacks. Barracks only cost minerals and if you're using them strictly for making ghosts, you won't need more than 2. Chill
|
the reason toss can beat mech easly its cause every unit in the toss army counters the tank (the core unit of mech in WoL)
chragelots -can close the gap to the tank easly and also light and got alot of armor so they dont get instggibed by tanks.
stalkers - got blink and move realy fast , do extra dmg to armored (not a big deal)
Immortals - hardend shield tanks tanks all day long + huge dmg vs armored.
archon - pretty high tech , require alot of eco to make , not sure how well they do cost to cost vs tanks but only hard countered by ghosts.
sure it doesnt do extra dmg to mech but mech doesnt do extra dmg to archon either so it seems to me pretty balanced fight
air - doesnt happen all that often in WoL but i think vikings do pretty ok vs the protoss air (I think phenoix beat vikings but vikings beat voidrays and tempest while carrier probley stomp pheonix but lose to voirdray )
in HoTS blizzard giveterran a counter to every thing (almost) the toss can throw at mech.
chragelot - BH + widow mine , the BH will stand long nuff to deal some dmg to the chragelots + the widow mine in mass numbers might be cost effective vs chargelots ( need to be tested).
stalker + immortal = countered by the warhound with the haywire misslies (bypass the hardend shield) and do ok dmg aswell.
also the warhound is pretty beefy makes the tanks safer allowing it shoot few more shots.
if anything thor is becoming useless in HoTS consider it doesnt have a role now with the warhound as meetshield and dpser.
Imo we will see zealot archon ,HT for stroms,mech is still less mobile than bio making it easier to land storms (maybe with air support) vs the new mech BT,tank warhound support by widow mine and viking to spot for the tanks and defend vs warp prism play (like dropping zealots on tanks or w/e)
this play will force the terran get ghosts and switch tech similer to how TvP acts right now ( gateway units melt to bio so the protoss make collosi force the terran make viking that are useless as dps and take up army supply to deal with them, archon serve the same roll but the switch is harder ( all other tech tree,not upgrades , ghosts cant be reactored and massed fast like vikings, require to build rax and techlab so the terran need to scout it ahead and prepare for it)
all that cant be without the warhound , sure the numbers must be balanced but the role it plays as adding meat to the mech army must stay ingame.
from spectator POV this is great change making this MU from 1 dimensional that plays every game pretty much the same to more verstile forcing both sides to react to each other play adding more depth to the MU.
Tl;DR
we need warhound to make mech viable to TvP, else its back to MMM
just my 2cent ,
p.s - sorry for any typos im not naitve english speaker
|
The warhound is not casual it is outright imbalance atm and needs no micro whatsoever. It isn t a solution to the toss beats terran mech problem it is just reversing the situation in favor of T.
|
On September 09 2012 23:49 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals. Get something in a fucking other tech branch with other upgrades and different infrastructure. And you can't forget Collosi, the would melt ghost before the EMP could hit. Better just mass BCs like MVP did. The problem is not that is totally unviable. The problem it is so fucking hard to use, you need good position, good micro and if you fail, all Protoss stuff would just happly a-move against it. Chargelots, Immortals and Blinkstalkers roflstomp uit without almost any Micro at all Finally Terran is getting a unit that can stop this bullshit and everyone is bitching about how much "casual" it is. It is sad.
You are very wrong. Although I always like to back my Terran fellows. But you are wrong about the ghost.
Immortals have a short range and have to close up the Terran army to deal substantial damage. All you need to do is keep the ghost literally next to your mech army and spam that EMP on the Immortals.
EMPing High Templars is a whole different issue since they are usually trail behind the protoss deathball and your ghosts would get ripped up before they launch a single EMP.
But immortals are really easy to target, also they stand out a lot and because of their speed, they sometimes clump up.
And no, ghosts are nothing difficult to make or use in such a scenario, and they dont cost much either. I am planning to make them with my HotS mech army even if the protoss doesn't make a single immortal, simply because they work so well with mech and against protoss.
|
On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL.
Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball?
Sometimes air IS the answer =/
|
On September 10 2012 03:57 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL. Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball? Sometimes air IS the answer =/
Same thing for Zerg vs. Protoss. Once the Protoss' upgrades get up there you can't compete without Broodlords
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
