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*** i gave this thread a bad name. a better name for this thread would be ""why blizzard wants the warhound to exist. how to make it not overpowered if its not removed" ***
i preferr it if warhounds were removed
im just brainstorming ways to take the stupidly designed unit blizzard has created, and hopefully make it not overpowered. it cant be allowed to obliterate immortals and trade evenly with zealots, thats all im trying to say, because thats overpowered.
Just tested it in the unit tester.
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.
I can see a point that its unfair for one unit to not have a counter-unit in another race.
but the notion that immortals beat bio is wrong. Mainly because immortals lose before max upgrades, immortals lose in a real game where toss will have some gateway units, and immortals lose EVEN IF its pure immortal because mules allow terran to have a 13supply larger army, and with a 13supply larger bio army the immortals lose EVEN WITH max upgrades
However immortals still decimate mech which is the problem blizzards trying to fix.
i tried 5 medivacs 50marines 20marauders in the tester right now
the test was interesting
5 medivacs, 50marines, 20marauders got completely owned by 100food immortals. but thats only at max upgrades. immortals get stronger than marines when both are upgraded.
marines beat them before upgrades are in play. and its very hard for protoss to get 3-3-3, and marines probably win when immortals are only 3-3 (before shield upgrades)
however, with only 13 more food, 55 marines, 24 marauders, 5 medivacs, the terran army COMPLETELY SHREDS the immortals and has 30 food remaining. This is at max upgrades. before max upgrades the terran wins with 55+ food remaining because immortals dont 2shot marines until upgrades are maxed.
I think this is a big deal because terran has mules allowing terran to easily be 13 or more army supply ahead of the protoss at all times. Because mules allow the terran to live with 40 SCV's lategame while protoss NEEDS 60+ to be competitive
Also, the army was pure immortals. Throw in some gateway and the protoss loses extremely hard
So i guess immortals arent as big of a problem vs bio as i sort of implied. Bio does shred immortals given these details, and obviously every protoss wants to use 100% of their robo production on collossi instead of immortals because collossi are much better against bio
So I admit my details were a bit misleading. The terran wins if hes 13food up which he pretty much should always be. But thats when going bio he wins. When going mech blizzard probably still thought immortals were too strong against mech
so i can UNDERSTAND what blizzards trying to do with the warhound. Blizzard wants ONE terran unit that will beat the immortal when a-moved in even food amounts. Thats why the warhound is designed with missiles that autocast and go through hardened shields.
But the problem is, warhounds are too fast (faster than zealots), and they currently OBLITERATE immortals in even food amounts.
50food immortals a-moving 50food sieged tanks dont OBLITERATE the tanks, instead all the tanks die but PLENTY immortals die.
it should be the same for the warhound. the 100food warhound army should not OBLITERATE the immortals, instead it should win handily while still losing at least 80-85% of its own units. That is a proper counter unit.
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Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
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On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
How to demolish a wall of text in 3 minutes.
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try again now, tank get +7 instead of +5, this can make difference
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You are trying to balance armies with simple food for food equations.
With this logic you could easily claim that roaches are a worthless unit because food for food they can barley beat anything.
And the problem with mech isn't only that it dies to a good protoss compositions but also that even when it wins it still needs to survive a warpgate remax.
Otherwise late-game macrogames will always turn against meching player and this style of play will become restricted to an all-in fest.
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What the hell is a 60 food immortal/colossus army? an army that only consists of these units? Then your whole argumentation is invalid, because such an army does not exist.
An Immortal/colossus BASED army with zealots/stalkers and sentries can easily get beaten by terrans, it depends on the right viking count and then MMM rips apart the rest.
Also, Add 3 Ghosts to your mech army, emp the immortals and see who wins now, even with 100 supply.
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On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
Immortals aren't even the real problem. Chargelots stomp mech.
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On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:[...]
But I recently went into the unit tester and wow, immortal/collossi is MUCH stronger against mech than I thought.
[...]
Testing a composition that relies heavily on positioning and abusing terrain in the unit tester is a horrible way of trying to reach some sort of conclusion regarding if it's feasible or not. If you go mech, using chokepoints, hugging cliffs and putting up blocking buildings greatly increase your fighting strength.
On September 09 2012 20:18 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals. Immortals aren't even the real problem. Chargelots stomp mech.
Battle hellions are basically what terran should need to make mech viable against toss in that regard. More things against immortals and stalkers is pointless since that isn't the problem.
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On September 09 2012 19:59 Garmer wrote:
try again now, tank get +7 instead of +5, this can make difference
You mean tank get +3(+4) per upgrade?
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On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
It's not just fair? This is the whole game design! Why would there be air units if u did not need to use them? Also, why can collossi be hit by air if making air units to counter them isn t the way?
Please keep in mind, Terran bio will need air any day to survive a game that goes past the 10 minute mark: it's called the medivac, thus giving any bio player the option to produce vikings as well.
And speaking of a pure Immortal/Colossi army: u cannot possibly compare a composition like that foodwise: How is a Protoss going to build up such an army without dying to basically any push before one reaches 100 supply?!
Of course there are units that if u have time to max out on will just roflstomp a usual composition--> e.g. max on carriers or BCs. The important figure in those cases isn t food, but cost(esp gas)&building time.
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On September 09 2012 21:02 Gheizen64 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:59 Garmer wrote:
try again now, tank get +7 instead of +5, this can make difference You mean tank get +3(+4) per upgrade?
they do 50 vs armored right? with +1 up was 55 right? now is 57
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I guess my main point is that in ZvP, zerg has no ground army that is uncounterable by a protoss counter-ground-army, and protoss has no ground army that is uncounterable by a zerg counter-ground-army
I believe ground is the most important area to balance. However even air is balanced in zvp because no zerg air army is uncounterable by a protoss air counter army and no protoss air army is uncounterable by a zerg counter air army
But in PvT, that imbalance actually exists, meaning if a game ever got to the point where a protoss was defensive and can make these units, they are inherently overpowered against terran without any ground answer existing for terran. Terran can still win with air units but I think "make air units" is a unfair solution.
I understand most terrans will want bio with medivacs and things like that, but im just talking mostly composition based it feels unfair for protoss to have a unbeatable ground composition. Each composition should be counterable by another race and that counter should also have its counter.
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On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals.
Get something in a fucking other tech branch with other upgrades and different infrastructure. And you can't forget Collosi, the would melt ghost before the EMP could hit. Better just mass BCs like MVP did.
The problem is not that is totally unviable. The problem it is so fucking hard to use, you need good position, good micro and if you fail, all Protoss stuff would just happly a-move against it. Chargelots, Immortals and Blinkstalkers roflstomp uit without almost any Micro at all
Finally Terran is getting a unit that can stop this bullshit and everyone is bitching about how much "casual" it is. It is sad.
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On September 09 2012 23:49 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals. Get something in a fucking other tech branch with other upgrades and different infrastructure. And you can't forget Collosi, the would melt ghost before the EMP could hit. Better just mass BCs like MVP did. The problem is not that is totally unviable. The problem it is so fucking hard to use, you need good position, good micro and if you fail, all Protoss stuff would just happly a-move against it. Chargelots, Immortals and Blinkstalkers roflstomp uit without almost any Micro at all Finally Terran is getting a unit that can stop this bullshit and everyone is bitching about how much "casual" it is. It is sad.
I don't think getting ghosts is a big deal upgrade wise. It's a caster, dude. It shits on stuff with spells not autoattacks. Barracks only cost minerals and if you're using them strictly for making ghosts, you won't need more than 2. Chill
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the reason toss can beat mech easly its cause every unit in the toss army counters the tank (the core unit of mech in WoL)
chragelots -can close the gap to the tank easly and also light and got alot of armor so they dont get instggibed by tanks.
stalkers - got blink and move realy fast , do extra dmg to armored (not a big deal)
Immortals - hardend shield tanks tanks all day long + huge dmg vs armored.
archon - pretty high tech , require alot of eco to make , not sure how well they do cost to cost vs tanks but only hard countered by ghosts.
sure it doesnt do extra dmg to mech but mech doesnt do extra dmg to archon either so it seems to me pretty balanced fight
air - doesnt happen all that often in WoL but i think vikings do pretty ok vs the protoss air (I think phenoix beat vikings but vikings beat voidrays and tempest while carrier probley stomp pheonix but lose to voirdray )
in HoTS blizzard giveterran a counter to every thing (almost) the toss can throw at mech.
chragelot - BH + widow mine , the BH will stand long nuff to deal some dmg to the chragelots + the widow mine in mass numbers might be cost effective vs chargelots ( need to be tested).
stalker + immortal = countered by the warhound with the haywire misslies (bypass the hardend shield) and do ok dmg aswell.
also the warhound is pretty beefy makes the tanks safer allowing it shoot few more shots.
if anything thor is becoming useless in HoTS consider it doesnt have a role now with the warhound as meetshield and dpser.
Imo we will see zealot archon ,HT for stroms,mech is still less mobile than bio making it easier to land storms (maybe with air support) vs the new mech BT,tank warhound support by widow mine and viking to spot for the tanks and defend vs warp prism play (like dropping zealots on tanks or w/e)
this play will force the terran get ghosts and switch tech similer to how TvP acts right now ( gateway units melt to bio so the protoss make collosi force the terran make viking that are useless as dps and take up army supply to deal with them, archon serve the same roll but the switch is harder ( all other tech tree,not upgrades , ghosts cant be reactored and massed fast like vikings, require to build rax and techlab so the terran need to scout it ahead and prepare for it)
all that cant be without the warhound , sure the numbers must be balanced but the role it plays as adding meat to the mech army must stay ingame.
from spectator POV this is great change making this MU from 1 dimensional that plays every game pretty much the same to more verstile forcing both sides to react to each other play adding more depth to the MU.
Tl;DR
we need warhound to make mech viable to TvP, else its back to MMM
just my 2cent ,
p.s - sorry for any typos im not naitve english speaker
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The warhound is not casual it is outright imbalance atm and needs no micro whatsoever. It isn t a solution to the toss beats terran mech problem it is just reversing the situation in favor of T.
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On September 09 2012 23:49 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 19:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Seriously, 3-4 emps on the immortals and the mech army not just wins, it fucking demolishes immortals.
All you need are 3-4 ghosts.
Of course if the Terrans neglects ghosts he will get roflstomped by immortals. Get something in a fucking other tech branch with other upgrades and different infrastructure. And you can't forget Collosi, the would melt ghost before the EMP could hit. Better just mass BCs like MVP did. The problem is not that is totally unviable. The problem it is so fucking hard to use, you need good position, good micro and if you fail, all Protoss stuff would just happly a-move against it. Chargelots, Immortals and Blinkstalkers roflstomp uit without almost any Micro at all Finally Terran is getting a unit that can stop this bullshit and everyone is bitching about how much "casual" it is. It is sad.
You are very wrong. Although I always like to back my Terran fellows. But you are wrong about the ghost.
Immortals have a short range and have to close up the Terran army to deal substantial damage. All you need to do is keep the ghost literally next to your mech army and spam that EMP on the Immortals.
EMPing High Templars is a whole different issue since they are usually trail behind the protoss deathball and your ghosts would get ripped up before they launch a single EMP.
But immortals are really easy to target, also they stand out a lot and because of their speed, they sometimes clump up.
And no, ghosts are nothing difficult to make or use in such a scenario, and they dont cost much either. I am planning to make them with my HotS mech army even if the protoss doesn't make a single immortal, simply because they work so well with mech and against protoss.
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On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL.
Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball?
Sometimes air IS the answer =/
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On September 10 2012 03:57 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL. Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball? Sometimes air IS the answer =/
Same thing for Zerg vs. Protoss. Once the Protoss' upgrades get up there you can't compete without Broodlords
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On September 10 2012 03:57 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL. Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball? Sometimes air IS the answer =/
You just proved me right.
I said, in my OPENING POST, that **PROTOSS** has a 60 food **GROUND ARMY** that **TERRAN CANNOT COUNTER**
this means, with you asking me to **SHOW YOU** a **TERRAN ARMY** that can counter the **PROTOSS DEATHBALL**.... my answer to you is
"UMM.. can you even READ?? I said in my OP that the toss deathball is imbalanced because **THERE IS NO COUNTER**.... i said in my OP that I believe that it is a problem that there is no counter, and i believe there should be a counter"
guess what, there is no ground army zerg has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the protoss
and there is no ground army protoss has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the zerg
I feel every non-mirror matchup should be like this. No ground army should be uncounterable by another races counter-ground army.
I challenge anyone to give me a 60 food ground-army from protoss that zerg cannot counter with its own 60food ground army. Heres a hint you cant do it, because every unit in zerg/protoss has its counter on the ground in the other race.
currently, terran has no counter to immortal/collosi based armies because a immortal/collossi based army rapes marines too hard which are the counter to immortals
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On September 10 2012 04:22 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 03:57 DusTerr wrote:On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL. Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball? Sometimes air IS the answer =/ You just proved me right. I said, in my OPENING POST, that **PROTOSS** has a 60 food **GROUND ARMY** that **TERRAN CANNOT COUNTER** this means, with you asking me to **SHOW YOU** a **TERRAN ARMY** that can counter the **PROTOSS DEATHBALL**.... my answer to you is "UMM.. can you even READ?? I said in my OP that the toss deathball is imbalanced because **THERE IS NO COUNTER**.... i said in my OP that I believe that it is a problem that there is no counter, and i believe there should be a counter" guess what, there is no ground army zerg has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the protoss and there is no ground army protoss has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the zerg I feel every non-mirror matchup should be like this. No ground army should be uncounterable by another races counter-ground army. I challenge anyone to give me a 60 food ground-army from protoss that zerg cannot counter with its own 60food ground army. Heres a hint you cant do it, because every unit in zerg/protoss has its counter on the ground in the other race. currently, terran has no counter to immortal/collosi based armies because a immortal/collossi based army rapes marines too hard which are the counter to immortals
Let me rephrase; Since this does not occur in WoL, why do you believe all ground armies should have a counter ground army (that could still be countered by army1 by changing the composition)?
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On September 10 2012 04:34 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 04:22 kaokentake wrote:On September 10 2012 03:57 DusTerr wrote:On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL. Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball? Sometimes air IS the answer =/ You just proved me right. I said, in my OPENING POST, that **PROTOSS** has a 60 food **GROUND ARMY** that **TERRAN CANNOT COUNTER** this means, with you asking me to **SHOW YOU** a **TERRAN ARMY** that can counter the **PROTOSS DEATHBALL**.... my answer to you is "UMM.. can you even READ?? I said in my OP that the toss deathball is imbalanced because **THERE IS NO COUNTER**.... i said in my OP that I believe that it is a problem that there is no counter, and i believe there should be a counter" guess what, there is no ground army zerg has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the protoss and there is no ground army protoss has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the zerg I feel every non-mirror matchup should be like this. No ground army should be uncounterable by another races counter-ground army. I challenge anyone to give me a 60 food ground-army from protoss that zerg cannot counter with its own 60food ground army. Heres a hint you cant do it, because every unit in zerg/protoss has its counter on the ground in the other race. currently, terran has no counter to immortal/collosi based armies because a immortal/collossi based army rapes marines too hard which are the counter to immortals Let me rephrase; Since this does not occur in WoL, why do you believe all ground armies should have a counter ground army (that could still be countered by army1 by changing the composition)?
because ZvP is balanced around that concept and it seems like a matchup is inherently imbalanced if a race has a uncounterable ground army. No 60food ground army in ZvP is uncounterable on either side
however in PvT, nothing terran has on the ground beats 60food of immortal/collossi
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An immortal/collosis based ground army can easily be beaten by a ground army of marine/ghost/thor, the terran just needs to stagger his marine's to lower the effectiveness of the colossus splash damage.
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On September 10 2012 04:42 Sovern wrote:
An immortal/collosis based ground army can easily be beaten by a ground army of marine/ghost/thor, the terran just needs to stagger his marine's to lower the effectiveness of the colossus splash damage.
i got the unit tester up right now. Ill test it
4 collossi, 9immortals, thats 60food
what combination of 60food of terran should beat that?
i guess terran gets to add in 4 extra marines, because protoss adds in 4 observers to prevent observer snipes/cloaked ghosts
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On September 10 2012 04:51 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 04:42 Sovern wrote:
An immortal/collosis based ground army can easily be beaten by a ground army of marine/ghost/thor, the terran just needs to stagger his marine's to lower the effectiveness of the colossus splash damage. i got the unit tester up right now. Ill test it 4 collossi, 9immortals, thats 60food what combination of 60food of terran should beat that? i guess terran gets to add in 4 extra marines, because protoss adds in 4 observers to prevent observer snipes/cloaked ghosts
When would a protoss ever attack with 4 colossi and 9 immortals? Any ground army is going to be about half gateway units...
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On September 10 2012 04:57 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 04:51 kaokentake wrote:On September 10 2012 04:42 Sovern wrote:
An immortal/collosis based ground army can easily be beaten by a ground army of marine/ghost/thor, the terran just needs to stagger his marine's to lower the effectiveness of the colossus splash damage. i got the unit tester up right now. Ill test it 4 collossi, 9immortals, thats 60food what combination of 60food of terran should beat that? i guess terran gets to add in 4 extra marines, because protoss adds in 4 observers to prevent observer snipes/cloaked ghosts When would a protoss ever attack with 4 colossi and 9 immortals? Any ground army is going to be about half gateway units...
the point is about unit counters existing. If theres no counter units then those units are inherently overpowered
however, I guess maybe since bio is overpowered against gateways units, maybe its ""fair"" that robo units are overpowered against bio (and also mech)
maybe thats what makes it balanced?
i dunno... i guess since technically the terran does have the option to be aggressive with bio against the weaker gateway forces, while the protoss is building up his robo forces, maybe thats the balance in all of it?
and if thats the case then the warhound screws up that balance
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On September 10 2012 04:37 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 04:34 DusTerr wrote:On September 10 2012 04:22 kaokentake wrote:On September 10 2012 03:57 DusTerr wrote:On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
I believe there SHOULD NOT be any ground army that exists for one race, that has no counter ground army in the opposing race.
[...]
NO 60food GROUND ARMY should be uncounterable by another race (without the answer being "make air units") its just not fair. This game is largely ground army based.
I know you're focusing on HotS... but that statement just doesn't work in WoL. Show me the Terran ground army that can beat a standard protoss deathball? Sometimes air IS the answer =/ You just proved me right. I said, in my OPENING POST, that **PROTOSS** has a 60 food **GROUND ARMY** that **TERRAN CANNOT COUNTER** this means, with you asking me to **SHOW YOU** a **TERRAN ARMY** that can counter the **PROTOSS DEATHBALL**.... my answer to you is "UMM.. can you even READ?? I said in my OP that the toss deathball is imbalanced because **THERE IS NO COUNTER**.... i said in my OP that I believe that it is a problem that there is no counter, and i believe there should be a counter" guess what, there is no ground army zerg has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the protoss and there is no ground army protoss has that cannot be countered by a counter-army from the zerg I feel every non-mirror matchup should be like this. No ground army should be uncounterable by another races counter-ground army. I challenge anyone to give me a 60 food ground-army from protoss that zerg cannot counter with its own 60food ground army. Heres a hint you cant do it, because every unit in zerg/protoss has its counter on the ground in the other race. currently, terran has no counter to immortal/collosi based armies because a immortal/collossi based army rapes marines too hard which are the counter to immortals Let me rephrase; Since this does not occur in WoL, why do you believe all ground armies should have a counter ground army (that could still be countered by army1 by changing the composition)? because ZvP is balanced around that concept and it seems like a matchup is inherently imbalanced if a race has a uncounterable ground army. No 60food ground army in ZvP is uncounterable on either side however in PvT, nothing terran has on the ground beats 60food of immortal/collossi
alright, if u balance a game arround scenarios that are created in a unit tester, u might be right with ur foodwise comparison. But I ask u again, in what situation would a Terran forge a 60 food ground only army and wait for the Toss to build up a 60 food ground only army based on colossi and immos?
Terran could forge a 60 food ground army much faster and at a cheaper cost then toss could build up the type of army u describe. So u have to consider the saved resources and time if u want to talk balance - otherwise ur line of reason is inherently flawed.
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bbump
User was warned for this post
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On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
Just tested it in the unit tester.
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.
So you're saying that a Terran army costing 5000 minerals (plus 200/200 in upgrades) can't beat a Protoss army costing 6250 minerals and 2500 gas? Wow, I wonder why mass immortals haven't overtaken the TvP metagame???
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On September 10 2012 14:15 n00b1n8R wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
Just tested it in the unit tester.
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose. So you're saying that a Terran army costing 5000 minerals (plus 200/200 in upgrades) can't beat a Protoss army costing 6250 minerals and 2500 gas? Wow, I wonder why mass immortals haven't overtaken the TvP metagame???
the thing is, no terran unit beats immortals
now, blizzard will make 2 warhounds (300/150/4) beat 1immortal (250/100/4) however the problem is warhounds COMPLETELY RAPE immortals
I believe warhounds should "lightly counter" immortals, instead of completely raping them. Giving mech a superiority unit that can contest immortals, but not zealots, so zealots would still be strong, and possibly bring carriers back to contest mech, and reduce warhound speed to thor speed while your at it (shouldnt be able to kite zealots)
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On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
but in TvP, there is no balanced state on the ground. Immortals A-moved beat every terran unit
so i can UNDERSTAND what blizzards trying to do with the warhound. Blizzard wants ONE terran unit that will beat the immortal when a-moved in even food amounts. Thats why the warhound is designed with missiles that autocast and go through hardened shields.
I don't really understand your point. Could you explain this in detail please?
First of all I don't see how immortals can a-move beat every terran unit (marines hello? :-)) And secondly immortals are not even used all that much in a regular tvp outside of certain timings (i.e. immortal allins/timing pushes, terran going actually mech in WoL, holding a 1-1-1 allin after protoss fe (rather being that when you get allined you have to use all your production facilities to make as many units as possible to hold this allin, because there would actually be way better units vs this unit composition like phoenix, hts, colossi however when you get allined you usually don't have the time to get the necessary tech up or it's too costly to add all this tech for just one single unit when the terran allin hits), early game defence when the unit count is still low and robotics bay not ready yet).
In the later stages of the game (terran being at 3base+) and some ghosts always out on the field the immortal is just not really used at all any more (even before not as good as chargelots etc most of the time).
So basically the immortal does exactly what it should be doing. It's a unit specialised to do really well vs certain units/compositions and is just pretty bad in other situations.
Now it happens that the warhound is just a unit performs well vs all kinds of unit compositions (with its current stats even too strong but the beta has just started ... so their stats will be fixed if necessary later on) and at the same time the immortal (without adding other units into the mix like ghosts) should therefore be countered by the immortal (that's what the immortal should be able to do, nobody makes immortals against banshees, marines etc ...). So from the unit design the immortal should beat the warhound in cost/supply but obviously the terran player should be able to rape immortals if he adds other things (like emps, marines etc). But now that the warhound performs way better than the immortal in supply/cost efficiency when facing each other and is even way faster/more range etc ... this is the thing nobody really gets.
The reason why the strike canon on the thor got nerfed a while ago (Thorzain showcasting the usage of strike canon + vehicle armor upgrades vs protoss in some big tournament on XNC which made Blizzard to check this out in more detail) was not that strike canon as a skill was too powerful. The reason it got nerfed so damn hard was that for the cost in regards to the hp/dps the thor does really really well vs all kinds of protoss armies but now with the strike canon a mass thor army was able to deal with units that were supposed to counter the thor (immortals ...) all by themselves. So there was no need to add other units for the terran player and use unit compositions correctly any more which makes the game really dumb (which David Kim stated: Blizzard doesn't want to see only one unit being massed regardless what the opponent is doing) and the protoss player also had no chance of avoiding/shutting down the strike canon by using spells/positional advantage etc since strike canon was range9 and immortals shoot at range 6.
According to your logic the warhound should beat the immortal now (without any other unit added to the mix) in the unit tester. I can't seem to follow your logic and I'm eager to hear your pov why this should make sense.
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On September 10 2012 23:35 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
but in TvP, there is no balanced state on the ground. Immortals A-moved beat every terran unit
so i can UNDERSTAND what blizzards trying to do with the warhound. Blizzard wants ONE terran unit that will beat the immortal when a-moved in even food amounts. Thats why the warhound is designed with missiles that autocast and go through hardened shields.
I don't really understand your point. Could you explain this in detail please? First of all I don't see how immortals can a-move beat every terran unit (marines hello? :-)) And secondly immortals are not even used all that much in a regular tvp outside of certain timings (i.e. immortal allins/timing pushes, terran going actually mech in WoL, holding a 1-1-1 allin after protoss fe (rather being that when you get allined you have to use all your production facilities to make as many units as possible to hold this allin, because there would actually be way better units vs this unit composition like phoenix, hts, colossi however when you get allined you usually don't have the time to get the necessary tech up or it's too costly to add all this tech for just one single unit when the terran allin hits), early game defence when the unit count is still low and robotics bay not ready yet). In the later stages of the game (terran being at 3base+) and some ghosts always out on the field the immortal is just not really used at all any more (even before not as good as chargelots etc most of the time). So basically the immortal does exactly what it should be doing. It's a unit specialised to do really well vs certain units/compositions and is just pretty bad in other situations. Now it happens that the warhound is just a unit performs well vs all kinds of unit compositions (with its current stats even too strong but the beta has just started ... so their stats will be fixed if necessary later on) and at the same time the immortal (without adding other units into the mix like ghosts) should therefore be countered by the immortal (that's what the immortal should be able to do, nobody makes immortals against banshees, marines etc ...). So from the unit design the immortal should beat the warhound in cost/supply but obviously the terran player should be able to rape immortals if he adds other things (like emps, marines etc). But now that the warhound performs way better than the immortal in supply/cost efficiency when facing each other and is even way faster/more range etc ... this is the thing nobody really gets. The reason why the strike canon on the thor got nerfed a while ago (Thorzain showcasting the usage of strike canon + vehicle armor upgrades vs protoss in some big tournament on XNC which made Blizzard to check this out in more detail) was not that strike canon as a skill was too powerful. The reason it got nerfed so damn hard was that for the cost in regards to the hp/dps the thor does really really well vs all kinds of protoss armies but now with the strike canon a mass thor army was able to deal with units that were supposed to counter the thor (immortals ...) all by themselves. So there was no need to add other units for the terran player and use unit compositions correctly any more which makes the game really dumb (which David Kim stated: Blizzard doesn't want to see only one unit being massed regardless what the opponent is doing) and the protoss player also had no chance of avoiding/shutting down the strike canon by using spells/positional advantage etc since strike canon was range9 and immortals shoot at range 6. According to your logic the warhound should beat the immortal now (without any other unit added to the mix) in the unit tester. I can't seem to follow your logic and I'm eager to hear your pov why this should make sense.
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals
protoss spend money on collossi instead of immortals in MOST pvt games, because collossi counter bio even harder than immortals (but immortals counter mech harder than collossi)
right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.
This way, if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, then zealots should be strong against warhounds because zealots beat immortals but are immune to warhounds missiles.
This would give terran a unit they need to complete mech, a unit that actually fights the immortal but is bad against zealots. Warhound speed should be reduced to thor speed as well so its slow like mech and cant kite zealots.
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On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.
I can see a point that its unfair for one unit to not have a counter-unit in another race.
This test reveals nothing. Marines would be mixed with Marauders, and have Medivacs supporting. I'm pretty sure a 100 food army of MMM balanced correctly with Stimpack used, would beat Immortals. Mix in a couple of Ghosts, and it becomes a cake walk.
Of course, if your just blindly sending units to their death A-move style, then forget it. But that isn't realistic at all.
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On September 11 2012 02:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.
I can see a point that its unfair for one unit to not have a counter-unit in another race.
This test reveals nothing. Marines would be mixed with Marauders, and have Medivacs supporting. I'm pretty sure a 100 food army of MMM balanced correctly with Stimpack used, would beat Immortals. Mix in a couple of Ghosts, and it becomes a cake walk. Of course, if your just blindly sending units to their death A-move style, then forget it. But that isn't realistic at all.
yeah but OP's reasoning apparently evolves around the idea that medivacs are air units and therefore not legit in a ground army balance discussion :D
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Orbs post about the Warhound is one of the better posts I've read on a forum, this however is so full of stupid it's almost amusing.
So in a situation that will never ever ever ever ever occur in a real game one unit beats another unit when massed to a stupid number and idiotic restrictions are applied to the conditions of the engagement. Well that means nothing at all, it isn't a real scenario so any discussion about this is pointless even for theorycrafting.
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On September 11 2012 03:26 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 02:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.
I can see a point that its unfair for one unit to not have a counter-unit in another race.
This test reveals nothing. Marines would be mixed with Marauders, and have Medivacs supporting. I'm pretty sure a 100 food army of MMM balanced correctly with Stimpack used, would beat Immortals. Mix in a couple of Ghosts, and it becomes a cake walk. Of course, if your just blindly sending units to their death A-move style, then forget it. But that isn't realistic at all. yeah but OP's reasoning apparently evolves around the idea that medivacs are air units and therefore not legit in a ground army balance discussion :D
i dont think the medivacs would change much because 3-3-3 immortals kill in the same number of shots even if full hp
emp would let the terran win but then theres storm for toss.
ill try 5 medivacs 50marines 20marauders in the tester right now
the test was interesting
5 medivacs, 50marines, 20marauders got completely owned by 100food immortals. but thats only at max upgrades. immortals get stronger than marines when both are upgraded.
marines beat them before upgrades are in play. and its very hard for protoss to get 3-3-3, and marines probably win when immortals are only 3-3 (before shield upgrades)
however, with only 13 more food, 55 marines, 24 marauders, 5 medivacs, the terran army COMPLETELY SHREDS the immortals and has 30 food remaining. This is at max upgrades. before max upgrades the terran wins with 55+ food remaining because immortals dont 2shot marines until upgrades are maxed.
I think this is a big deal because terran has mules allowing terran to easily be 13 or more army supply ahead of the protoss at all times. Because mules allow the terran to live with 40 SCV's lategame while protoss NEEDS 60+ to be competitive
Also, the army was pure immortals. Throw in some gateway and the protoss loses extremely hard
So i guess immortals arent as big of a problem vs bio as i sort of implied. Bio does shred immortals given these details, and obviously every protoss wants to use 100% of their robo production on collossi instead of immortals because collossi are much better against bio
So I admit my details were a bit misleading. The terran wins if hes 13food up which he pretty much should always be. But thats when going bio he wins. When going mech blizzard probably still thought immortals were too strong against mech
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On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals
protoss spend money on collossi instead of immortals in MOST pvt games, because collossi counter bio even harder than immortals (but immortals counter mech harder than collossi)
right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.
This way, if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, then zealots should be strong against warhounds because zealots beat immortals but are immune to warhounds missiles.
This would give terran a unit they need to complete mech, a unit that actually fights the immortal but is bad against zealots. Warhound speed should be reduced to thor speed as well so its slow like mech and cant kite zealots.
By "lightly counter" are you actually talking about warhounds still countering immortals but not as hard as it is now (cause that's how I did understand your initial post) or do you mean that immortals should be more cost/supply efficient in a straight up only immortal vs warhound battle (which should never happen but just for the sake of comparing the unit counters in theory)?
If it's the first one then I missunderstood you and I'm totally on your side (balance wise) but nevertheless the warhound would still have a pretty dumb unit design. If it's the latter then I'm a bit clueless as to why it should be this way.
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On September 11 2012 03:52 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals
protoss spend money on collossi instead of immortals in MOST pvt games, because collossi counter bio even harder than immortals (but immortals counter mech harder than collossi)
right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.
This way, if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, then zealots should be strong against warhounds because zealots beat immortals but are immune to warhounds missiles.
This would give terran a unit they need to complete mech, a unit that actually fights the immortal but is bad against zealots. Warhound speed should be reduced to thor speed as well so its slow like mech and cant kite zealots. By "lightly counter" are you actually talking about warhounds still countering immortals but not as hard as it is now (cause that's how I did understand your initial post) or do you mean that immortals should be more cost/supply efficient in a straight up only immortal vs warhound battle (which should never happen but just for the sake of comparing the unit counters in theory)? If it's the first one then I missunderstood you and I'm totally on your side (balance wise) but nevertheless the warhound would still have a pretty dumb unit design. If it's the latter then I'm a bit clueless as to why it should be this way.
I think immortals should be unchanged, and warhounds should keep being nerfed until they "lightly counter" immortals and "lose" to zealots
I believe 10 immortals vs 20 warhounds, the warhounds should win the battle with about 3-4 warhounds remaining. That seems balanced to me. Keep nerfing the warhounds ground attack (but keep the missiles the same) until that scenario happens. then nerf warhound movement speed to thor speed so they cant kite immortals
so warhounds would lightly win against immortals, but would lose to zealots because zealots are immune to the missiles
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OP missed the point in the first sentenance, Immortals beat Marines @ 3-3 @100 food. Stopped reading there.
If you have the economy to go mass Immortals, etc. more power to you but I'd rather be making Colossus. And, may be something else as well, besides Warhounds' do beat them because of two attacks, and Thors and Tanks don't because Mech high DPS.
Make what you want to say without the imbalance crap and I'll read more. I wouldn't take this thread more seriously than that.
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On September 11 2012 03:52 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals
protoss spend money on collossi instead of immortals in MOST pvt games, because collossi counter bio even harder than immortals (but immortals counter mech harder than collossi)
right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.
This way, if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, then zealots should be strong against warhounds because zealots beat immortals but are immune to warhounds missiles.
This would give terran a unit they need to complete mech, a unit that actually fights the immortal but is bad against zealots. Warhound speed should be reduced to thor speed as well so its slow like mech and cant kite zealots. By "lightly counter" are you actually talking about warhounds still countering immortals but not as hard as it is now (cause that's how I did understand your initial post) or do you mean that immortals should be more cost/supply efficient in a straight up only immortal vs warhound battle (which should never happen but just for the sake of comparing the unit counters in theory)? If it's the first one then I missunderstood you and I'm totally on your side (balance wise) but nevertheless the warhound would still have a pretty dumb unit design. If it's the latter then I'm a bit clueless as to why it should be this way.
Why should the Warhound counter the Immortal at all? Immortal has a lot more drawbacks: slower, less range, and more expensive, both in cost and supply. There's no good balance argument to say that the dedicated Protoss GtG should be beat by the Terran dedicated GtG. Terran has plenty of tools to make Mech viable even against Immortal compositions. EMP and Tanks are really good at killing ground units, including Protoss units already, the problem is that Tanks don't survive long enough usually because of Zealots causing friendly fire and tanking shots very well, but that's what Battle Hellions solved.
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Your argument for a unit existing is a scenario that's never going to happen in any game? And that's how you want to balance it? That's absurd. Not to mention having a unit that exists just to "counter" another unit is stupid and makes for boring gameplay.
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On September 11 2012 04:02 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 03:52 Fairwell wrote:On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals
protoss spend money on collossi instead of immortals in MOST pvt games, because collossi counter bio even harder than immortals (but immortals counter mech harder than collossi)
right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.
This way, if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, then zealots should be strong against warhounds because zealots beat immortals but are immune to warhounds missiles.
This would give terran a unit they need to complete mech, a unit that actually fights the immortal but is bad against zealots. Warhound speed should be reduced to thor speed as well so its slow like mech and cant kite zealots. By "lightly counter" are you actually talking about warhounds still countering immortals but not as hard as it is now (cause that's how I did understand your initial post) or do you mean that immortals should be more cost/supply efficient in a straight up only immortal vs warhound battle (which should never happen but just for the sake of comparing the unit counters in theory)? If it's the first one then I missunderstood you and I'm totally on your side (balance wise) but nevertheless the warhound would still have a pretty dumb unit design. If it's the latter then I'm a bit clueless as to why it should be this way. Why should the Warhound counter the Immortal at all? Immortal has a lot more drawbacks: slower, less range, and more expensive, both in cost and supply. There's no good balance argument to say that the dedicated Protoss GtG should be beat by the Terran dedicated GtG. Terran has plenty of tools to make Mech viable even against Immortal compositions. EMP and Tanks are really good at killing ground units, including Protoss units already, the problem is that Tanks don't survive long enough usually because of Zealots causing friendly fire and tanking shots very well, but that's what Battle Hellions solved.
because terrans GTG attacker, the siege tank, is weak to immortals
so you can have siege tank be weak to immortals
then immortals will be weak to warhounds
warhounds will be weak to zealots
zealots are weak to battle hellions
battle hellions will be weak to collossi
and collossi will be weak to tanks
then to top off the circle, tanks will be weak to immortals which are weak to warhounds
all of these units attack only ground
On September 11 2012 04:08 GolemMadness wrote:
Your argument for a unit existing is a scenario that's never going to happen in any game? And that's how you want to balance it? That's absurd. Not to mention having a unit that exists just to "counter" another unit is stupid and makes for boring gameplay.
I admitted in this post that my opening premise that immortals beat bio is wrong. Mainly because immortals lose before max upgrades, immortals lose in a real game where toss will have some gateway units, and immortals lose EVEN IF its pure immortal because mules allow terran to have a 13supply larger army, and with a 13supply larger bio army the immortals lose EVEN WITH max upgrades
However immortals still decimate mech which is the problem blizzards trying to fix.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 11 2012 03:38 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 03:26 tar wrote:On September 11 2012 02:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On September 09 2012 18:10 kaokentake wrote:
At 3-3-3 upgrades and 100food army, theres ZERO ground units in the terran race that can a-move a 100food immortal army and beat it with 100food. Even 3-3 marines with stim/shields lose.
I can see a point that its unfair for one unit to not have a counter-unit in another race.
This test reveals nothing. Marines would be mixed with Marauders, and have Medivacs supporting. I'm pretty sure a 100 food army of MMM balanced correctly with Stimpack used, would beat Immortals. Mix in a couple of Ghosts, and it becomes a cake walk. Of course, if your just blindly sending units to their death A-move style, then forget it. But that isn't realistic at all. yeah but OP's reasoning apparently evolves around the idea that medivacs are air units and therefore not legit in a ground army balance discussion :D i dont think the medivacs would change much because 3-3-3 immortals kill in the same number of shots even if full hp emp would let the terran win but then theres storm for toss. ill try 5 medivacs 50marines 20marauders in the tester right now the test was interesting 5 medivacs, 50marines, 20marauders got completely owned by 100food immortals. but thats only at max upgrades. immortals get stronger than marines when both are upgraded. marines beat them before upgrades are in play. and its very hard for protoss to get 3-3-3, and marines probably win when immortals are only 3-3 (before shield upgrades) however, with only 13 more food, 55 marines, 24 marauders, 5 medivacs, the terran army COMPLETELY SHREDS the immortals and has 30 food remaining. This is at max upgrades. before max upgrades the terran wins with 55+ food remaining because immortals dont 2shot marines until upgrades are maxed. I think this is a big deal because terran has mules allowing terran to easily be 13 or more army supply ahead of the protoss at all times. Because mules allow the terran to live with 40 SCV's lategame while protoss NEEDS 60+ to be competitive Also, the army was pure immortals. Throw in some gateway and the protoss loses extremely hard So i guess immortals arent as big of a problem vs bio as i sort of implied. Bio does shred immortals given these details, and obviously every protoss wants to use 100% of their robo production on collossi instead of immortals because collossi are much better against bio So I admit my details were a bit misleading. The terran wins if hes 13food up which he pretty much should always be. But thats when going bio he wins. When going mech blizzard probably still thought immortals were too strong against mech
EDIT: to be clear I think the warhound should just be removed. But in this thread im only brainstorming ways to actually BALANCE the stupid warhound unit
I believe warhounds should be removed and tanks should be buffed to be strong against immortals in a positional sense. I think the immortals should be strong against marauders and thors, but not tanks. Zealots and carriers should be strong against tanks
I think tempests and oracle are stupid units too. The mcore is pretty stupid too.
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On September 11 2012 04:14 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 04:02 Cloak wrote:On September 11 2012 03:52 Fairwell wrote:On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals
protoss spend money on collossi instead of immortals in MOST pvt games, because collossi counter bio even harder than immortals (but immortals counter mech harder than collossi)
right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.
This way, if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, then zealots should be strong against warhounds because zealots beat immortals but are immune to warhounds missiles.
This would give terran a unit they need to complete mech, a unit that actually fights the immortal but is bad against zealots. Warhound speed should be reduced to thor speed as well so its slow like mech and cant kite zealots. By "lightly counter" are you actually talking about warhounds still countering immortals but not as hard as it is now (cause that's how I did understand your initial post) or do you mean that immortals should be more cost/supply efficient in a straight up only immortal vs warhound battle (which should never happen but just for the sake of comparing the unit counters in theory)? If it's the first one then I missunderstood you and I'm totally on your side (balance wise) but nevertheless the warhound would still have a pretty dumb unit design. If it's the latter then I'm a bit clueless as to why it should be this way. Why should the Warhound counter the Immortal at all? Immortal has a lot more drawbacks: slower, less range, and more expensive, both in cost and supply. There's no good balance argument to say that the dedicated Protoss GtG should be beat by the Terran dedicated GtG. Terran has plenty of tools to make Mech viable even against Immortal compositions. EMP and Tanks are really good at killing ground units, including Protoss units already, the problem is that Tanks don't survive long enough usually because of Zealots causing friendly fire and tanking shots very well, but that's what Battle Hellions solved. because terrans GTG attacker, the siege tank, is weak to immortals so you can have siege tank be weak to immortals then immortals will be weak to warhounds warhounds will be weak to zealots zealots are weak to battle hellions battle hellions will be weak to collossi and collossi will be weak to tanks then to top off the circle, tanks will be weak to immortals which are weak to warhounds all of these units attack only ground
I'm fine with that, so long as there is a cycle. The cycle is broken when certain units hardcounter too well. For example, if BHs annihilate Zealots, you need only a couple to deal with them so you can mass Warhounds, the supposed prey to the Zealot (but Warhounds counter Zealots at the moment). I can see it on the flip side too, Immortals probably counter Tanks too well, and discourage use of Mech in general, so Warhound can fill in the DPS needed to compensate for the Hardened Shields, but no more. Warhound's purpose is to enable Mech, not dominate Mech.
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The Warhound is an unbalanceable unit that harms the game. It does not lend strength to Siege Tank positions, because it cannot attack up. It is only suitable as part of a mobile composition that is inferior strategically to bio because it cannot drop (or at least shouldn't). It is designed to counter robo units, which means the only Protoss answer is an identical army type: Chargelot/Archon is a ground-based blob with similar mobility (or air, which is going to be the utter boredom of Void Rays). The Warhound simply needs to be deleted. Removed from the game entirely. Once that's done, we can go about finding ways to appropriately strengthen Terran siege lines and offering interesting mech play.
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I am still not getting your arguments at all. They just make no sense to me, so please clarify these:
On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
in pro games where terrans tried mech it was shut down handily by immortals
This is in WOL where mech in tvp is only viable as a form of 1-1-1 (including any deviation) or for some nasty 2 base timings/allins. This is a thread in the hots section and I thought the discussion of this topic here should be centered around warhound in hots. Nobody questions that immortals work well vs mech (as a lot of other things as well hence why mech is not viable in tvp in WOL) in WOL, but the issue people are having is the warhound countering the immortal in hots.
On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
right now warhounds OBLITERATE immortals in the unit tester in even food amounts. I believe thats wrong. I said in my OP I think it will be balanced if warhounds "lightly counter" immortals, instead of obliterating them.
I asked already once in a post above to please clarify how you understand this. So again, I don't get your point. Does this mean that in your opinion the warhound should still counter the immortal but just not as much as now (meaning that immortals will still lose in cost/supply vs warhounds although they are much slower etc) or does it mean that the warhound should actually lose to the immortal since the immortal should be countering such units since that's the only thing immortals are good for (why else build slow units that don't come out of warpgates, do like no dps compared to colossus vs non armored or bigger armies, etc etc)?
On September 11 2012 01:17 kaokentake wrote:
so you can have siege tank be weak to immortals
I see the point you are trying to make (rock, paper and scissors) on the ground but the immortal is not a counter to the tank. Yes, the immortal does good dps vs tanks but this can only work in small unit counters. Even vs the 1-1-1 it's not always so easy to get the immortals always nicely in range before they die to marine/banshee fire and really get their shots of. In normal sized armies (macro games not allins with way lower supply counts) there will be units in front of tanks shooting from range13 and immortals can't magically beam up right next to the tanks. So they will only be able to attack tanks once the meatshield is gone. But once the meatshield is gone you don't even need immortals any more. Any unit will kill tanks if it's only tanks left (unless you have a super tight choke with a lot of tanks obviously :-)). According to the logic you are using here immortals and marauders are also the counter to colossus firing at a range of 9 (way less range but can move unliked sieged up tanks) but still this only happens if the player using colossus has bad positioning once the army sizes are bigger or once the meatshield (chargelots) are gone. But again, if only colossi are left any unit (be it viking, marauder, marine ...) that can actually do dps will kill those colossi.
To sum it up, without looking at realistic unit compositions those "unit counters" mean nothing. It's like this zerg player who once made a thread here on TL to claim that broodlords are useless because marines kill them for cost. If only it was always so easy to get marines in range to fire directly at broodlords with all those broodlings + speedlings/banes + infestors with fg in front in a realistic game.
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I asked already once in a post above to please clarify how you understand this. So again, I don't get your point. Does this mean that in your opinion the warhound should still counter the immortal but just not as much as now (meaning that immortals will still lose in cost/supply vs warhounds although they are much slower etc)
when i say "lightly counter" i mean this
2 warhounds cost 300/150/4
1 immortal costs 250/100/4
keep the missiles the same (bypassing hardened shields). Reduce warhound attackspeed until the following scenario is created
20 warhounds in a fight against 10 immortals, warhounds should win the fight, with 3-4 warhounds surviving (some highly damaged).
then reduce warhound speed to thor speed so they cant kite zealots. So warhounds would be weak to zealots but they would beat immortals.
just to clarify I believe warhounds should be removed and tanks should be buffed to allow position mech play (with zealots and carriers countering tanks)
however, IF the warhound exists, it should be a counter to the immortal and nothing more (and tanklines in tvt possibly), and the above is what I mean by that.
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One of the (possibley THE) worst theory crafting that I have seen around here. Not sure where to even begin to criticize.
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On September 11 2012 05:30 usethis2 wrote:
One of the (possibley THE) worst theory crafting that I have seen around here. Not sure where to even begin to criticize.
I actually want the warhound removed. I wish blizzard thought like you, because sadly, the horrible theorycraft of this thread is why blizzard wants to add a counter-unit to the immortal in the terran mech army (which the immortal is supposed to counter). If blizzard thought like you this horrible unit would have never made beta.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I asked the staff and wasn't explicitly told not to do this, so here goes:
Am I taking crazy pills, or is this one of the most insane OPs (and responses from the OP afterward) ever? Like.... Seriously... WHUT?
Terran needs the warhound, because PURE IMMORTAL, beats PURE MARINE?!?!?? BASED ON A-MOVING!?!?!? WHAT?!?!?!
WHO BALANCES, BASED ON A-MOVING?!?!??!?!
YOU'RE INTENTIONALLY IGNORING AIR UNITS?!?!?! BECAUSE GROUND ONLY BALANCE IS FAIR?!?!?!?!??! WHAT!?!?!?! THATS INSAAANE!!!!
User was warned for this post
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Yeah, no offense to the op, but this is just awful theory analysis.
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On September 11 2012 06:29 MCDayC wrote:
I asked the staff and wasn't explicitly told not to do this, so here goes:
Am I taking crazy pills, or is this one of the most insane OPs (and responses from the OP afterward) ever? Like.... Seriously... WHUT?
Terran needs the warhound, because PURE IMMORTAL, beats PURE MARINE?!?!?? BASED ON A-MOVING!?!?!? WHAT?!?!?!
WHO BALANCES, BASED ON A-MOVING?!?!??!?!
i said in the OP that the main reason is not because of the marines beating immortals, but because of immortals beating mech. it seems you didnt read it properly.
I said in the OP at 113food vs 100food, the terran army smashes the protoss army, and because mules allow terran to always have 15 more army supply it means the "immortals beat bio" assumption is false
YOU'RE INTENTIONALLY IGNORING AIR UNITS?!?!?! BECAUSE GROUND ONLY BALANCE IS FAIR?!?!?!?!??! WHAT!?!?!?! THATS INSAAANE!!!!
sadly that is how blizzard is doing things. I wish it wasnt so and i wish the warhound was removed but blizzard feels immortals are too strong on the ground, and they feel that adding a terran ground answer to the immortal besides bio (because bio is crushed too hard by collossi) is needed. thats the whole point of the warhound
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you can say the same for vikings air to air combat.
yeah exactly... i don't see your point other than a balance whine.
do you want cheese with that wine?
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On September 11 2012 06:56 j.k.l wrote:
you can say the same for vikings air to air combat.
yeah exactly... i don't see your point other than a balance whine.
do you want cheese with that wine?
vikings lose cost for cost to carriers
vikings trade about evenly with corrupters so its a fungal vs hsm war
besides if you read the thread youd know i preferr it if warhounds were removed
im just brainstorming ways to take the stupidly designed unit blizzard has created, and hopefully make it not overpowered. it cant be allowed to obliterate immortals and trade evenly with zealots, thats all im trying to say, because thats overpowered.
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i think with all the hate warhound is receiving, it will probably get a complete redesign in purpose as a unit, so this thread probably doesnt really mean much. heres to hoping
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United States22154 Posts
please put this in one of the existing warhound threads.
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EPT
