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Do not use this thread to beg users for beta access or trade access with others. Thanks. |
It's worth noting that, as I understand it, Purify won't mean we can skip Forge, just due to the gas cost and the energy requirement.
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On August 17 2012 10:22 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:20 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2012 10:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 10:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2012 10:13 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 09:56 Forikorder wrote:That's not really the point. Zerg players can Hatch first safely in TvZ, for example, whereas Terran players can't necessarily CC first safely. yes they can its even safe to quickly get 3 CCs in TvZ The reason you get a Hatch against Terran is because you need the production, not the Drones. no its becasue you need the econ, you dont even have to make units for a good while unless they bunker rush noone goes hatch first and then makes a ton of lings to prepare for an attack unless its a bunker rush Pool against Toss is not just to kill Pylon blocks, but also because you get a quicker Queen, which means your Injects will quickly put you ahead of a quick Hatch. no the injects wont, the reason you go pool first is 100% because of pylon blocks We can't come at you with 2x the units just because we opened Nexus first on one base you 4 gate on 2 bases you 8 gate, sounds like twice as many units you dont really seem to understand basic logic, the faster you expand the better your economy will be thats a fact and cannot be disputed by anything, placing a hatch first will 100% of the time give you more econ then ANY other build same deal with nexus first, it gives you a noticeable econ lead over non-nexus first builds By the way, when Protoss Nexus first, we need to go Nexus Forge Gateway/Cannon Pylon. Zerg doesn't need to invest in a Spine crawler, or whatever, to be safe, and I can tell you that if Protoss had the option to be safe against any all-in or 6pool going Nexus Gateway Pylon Cyber, we would. well congratulations cause Blizz gave you the motherhip core there now your safe agaisnt everything Your argument went from being weak to just being a stream of tears. Another one bites the dust. TL:DR; i have no more arguments since you so amazingly destroyed them so im just going to call you a winer and pretend to take the moral highground to hide my lack of evidence that pool first gives you more economy than hatch first Well not to be a dick, but I at least attempted to address the points you made with my thoughts and I didn't see any kind of response to them i dont see any of your posts disagreeing with me Agreed on the mothership core, technically agreed on the 2x economy allows a 4 gate to = an 8 gate, but I feel the latter point isn't as relevant because the timing of that sort of push isn't particularly dangerous at all. Either you cut probes to get it up, in which case you don't have 2x the economy of a saturated 1 base play, or you delay to get that saturation and delay the push until it's pretty bad.
ya but you were talking PvT not PvZ
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On August 17 2012 10:20 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 17 2012 10:16 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2012 10:13 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 09:56 Forikorder wrote:That's not really the point. Zerg players can Hatch first safely in TvZ, for example, whereas Terran players can't necessarily CC first safely. yes they can its even safe to quickly get 3 CCs in TvZ The reason you get a Hatch against Terran is because you need the production, not the Drones. no its becasue you need the econ, you dont even have to make units for a good while unless they bunker rush noone goes hatch first and then makes a ton of lings to prepare for an attack unless its a bunker rush Pool against Toss is not just to kill Pylon blocks, but also because you get a quicker Queen, which means your Injects will quickly put you ahead of a quick Hatch. no the injects wont, the reason you go pool first is 100% because of pylon blocks We can't come at you with 2x the units just because we opened Nexus first on one base you 4 gate on 2 bases you 8 gate, sounds like twice as many units you dont really seem to understand basic logic, the faster you expand the better your economy will be thats a fact and cannot be disputed by anything, placing a hatch first will 100% of the time give you more econ then ANY other build same deal with nexus first, it gives you a noticeable econ lead over non-nexus first builds By the way, when Protoss Nexus first, we need to go Nexus Forge Gateway/Cannon Pylon. Zerg doesn't need to invest in a Spine crawler, or whatever, to be safe, and I can tell you that if Protoss had the option to be safe against any all-in or 6pool going Nexus Gateway Pylon Cyber, we would. well congratulations cause Blizz gave you the motherhip core there now your safe agaisnt everything Your argument went from being weak to just being a stream of tears. Another one bites the dust. TL:DR; i have no more arguments since you so amazingly destroyed them so im just going to call you a winer and pretend to take the moral highground to hide my lack of evidence that pool first gives you more economy than hatch first Well not to be a dick, but I at least attempted to address the points you made with my thoughts and I didn't see any kind of response to them i dont see any of your posts disagreeing with me Show nested quote +You equated the difference between Forge --> Nexus and Nexus first to 4gating vs 8 gating. You're dumb and wrong. you said that pool first gives you a better econ then ahtch first and people only hatch first for more production (implying its needed as army) Show nested quote +By the way, MS Core costs gas, so either way we're cutting something. No Protoss is going Pylon Gate Nexus in the way that Zerg can go Overlord Pool Hatch. because Zerg and Protoss are different races, but one gate expand is possible and pylon forge nexus (practically the same thing) is safe Show nested quote +The point is that Hatch first is more economical than Nexus first to begin with. 14 Pool then Hatch isn't really less economical than Nexus first in the sense that Zerg players aren't way behind when the Protoss Nexus firsts, hence why every PvZ isn't the Protoss player being ahead economically. ya because protoss units are 1000000000 times more cost effective so Zerg need to be able to get the econ advantage Show nested quote +If you think Nexus first needs to be dealt with, then you need to show that there's actually a problem in PvZ right now where Protoss has a stronger economy. You can't, because they don't . i never said that Nexus first is a problem that should be dealt with i said its good for every race to have options to punish builds like that
One Gate expand is not always possible, and it's virtually never possible on the low ground. By 1 gate expand, you mean 1 gate cyber core and gas then expand, which is an entirely different build.
Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. There's a reason we wall-off.
You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do, which implies that you think it should be permissible about as often as Hatch first, which is dumb because the two are not equivalent. The Protoss equivalent to Hatch first in terms of greed is Nexus first and then Gateway, which is already almost never viable. Our equivalent of 14p then Hatch is Nexus then Forge. Our response to pre-14p is Forge first. What about this doesn't make sense to you? Just because we put down our Nexus first doesn't really dismiss the fact that we're delaying our production to get a Forge for base defense.
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This thread needs some cleanup, too much balance discussion in here. Put that in the strategy forum.
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Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game.
1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1
You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do
no im not
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On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 Show nested quote +You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not
1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here.
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Forikorder just doesn't understand...sadly :'(
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On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here.
if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right.
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On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right.
Abstracting the situation so that it doesn't even include micro is absurd.
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On August 17 2012 10:42 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right. Abstracting the situation so that it doesn't even include micro is absurd.
the point is the zealot is more cost effective
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On August 17 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:42 Turgid wrote:On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right. Abstracting the situation so that it doesn't even include micro is absurd. the point is the zealot is more cost effective
In a no micro situation, totally.
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I really can't wait for the beta. Even though I might not get in, I can still watch videos on YouTube!
BRING IT ON!!!!!
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On August 17 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:42 Turgid wrote:On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right. Abstracting the situation so that it doesn't even include micro is absurd. the point is the zealot is more cost effective
In a situation that doesn't actually exist, sure. I guess Drones are also efficient against Infestors if they don't use Fungal.
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On August 17 2012 11:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2012 10:42 Turgid wrote:On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right. Abstracting the situation so that it doesn't even include micro is absurd. the point is the zealot is more cost effective In a situation that doesn't actually exist, sure. I guess Drones are also efficient against Infestors if they don't use Fungal.
completely different scenarios its not always possible to perfectly micro roachs to kite zealots especailyl in early game scenarios
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On August 17 2012 11:04 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 11:01 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2012 10:42 Turgid wrote:On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right. Abstracting the situation so that it doesn't even include micro is absurd. the point is the zealot is more cost effective In a situation that doesn't actually exist, sure. I guess Drones are also efficient against Infestors if they don't use Fungal. completely different scenarios its not always possible to perfectly micro roachs to kite zealots especailyl in early game scenarios
In a professional SC2 game, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3....100v100 roach beats zealots 100% of the time. Anything else is irrelevant. Stop arguing a STUPID FUCKING POINT
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Someone please look up the definition of "Soon" in the blizzard dictionary bc Webster's definition obviously isn't correct.
"The Swarm is coming"......"in Summer 2013 at the earliest"
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On August 17 2012 11:06 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 11:04 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2012 11:01 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:On August 17 2012 10:42 Turgid wrote:On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right. Abstracting the situation so that it doesn't even include micro is absurd. the point is the zealot is more cost effective In a situation that doesn't actually exist, sure. I guess Drones are also efficient against Infestors if they don't use Fungal. completely different scenarios its not always possible to perfectly micro roachs to kite zealots especailyl in early game scenarios In a professional SC2 game, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3....100v100 roach beats zealots 100% of the time. Anything else is irrelevant. Stop arguing a STUPID FUCKING POINT
in a professional starcraft games its common for Zealots to outnumber the roachs so the raochs have to spend too much time kiting and the third gets sniped
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I don't know if this is a good spot to ask, but isn't there suppose to be some updates during gamescon???
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On August 17 2012 10:33 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 10:31 Shiori wrote:On August 17 2012 10:30 Forikorder wrote:Zealots and Stalkers are not more cost effective against Lings and Roaches, especially not in this phase of the game. 1 zealot beats one roach small numbers is where toss units are even more cost effective, try taking down small numbers of zealots with small numbers of lings especially if the Zealots are +1 You're not asking for a way to punish Nexus first. You're asking for a way for it to be impossible to do no im not 1 Zealot beats a Roach? I'm done here. if you consider a single 1v1 fight no kiting no upgrades, he is right.
Yeah, so marines suck right?
Can we please talk about fking real non-dumb Sc2?
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On August 17 2012 11:09 metbull wrote:
Someone please look up the definition of "Soon" in the blizzard dictionary bc Webster's definition obviously isn't correct.
"The Swarm is coming"......"in Summer 2013 at the earliest"
Anyone who truly believes Blizzard would wait until 2013 to release Heart of the Swarm is a moron.
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EPT
