EPTDo we still want the Roach in HotS? - Page 5
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
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Garmer
1286 Posts
make ling more strong(like in BW or slightly better) make them move underground(at faster speed then roach), so they can avoid force field profit?? | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Some people say that Roaches are 1-A dumb units. While that can be true if you do strats like the 12 minute max, people largely underestimate the value of burrow with Roaches. In a fight, burrowing weak Roaches can be as good (perhaps even better than) blink for Stalkers. They get their health back so quickly it's absurd. Burrow also makes them good harass units. I think Root Zergs are those who utilize burrow roaches the best and I encourage Zergs to watch their streams. This may be biased, I only watch Root Zergs and Idra so... :p No, Roach is a great unit, the bread and butter for Zerg. Don't take it out. I'd rather see an anti-armor unit for Zerg, like the Immortal. Might make retarded Roach/Infestor wars more interesting to watch. :B Also Tanks aren't boring at all they're absolutely huge in TvZ (probably TvT as well, I wouldn't know about TvP but it seems that mobile units > tanks). I would argue that TvZ is easily the most entertaining match up there is btw. | ||
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shin ken
Germany612 Posts
It's one of those units that has "Dustin Browder" written all over it, who brings a lot of C&C influences into the starcraft space. There might be some people who don't like that influence but Dustin designed the games which are widely considered the pinaccle of the C&C series which has never recovered from his departure to Blizzard. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
I think the real problem with the Roach was in the design of the Zerg army. Every race can pick a staple "backbone" unit and for Zerg the only option is the Roach. You could argue that Lings could fill the role and maybe do in some cases when handled by people like Stephano but realistically they die to pretty much everything unless you get very favourable surrounds and minimal splash. Then there's the Hydra which dies to everything. The Baneling which has obvious issues being the backbone of an army. The Ultra which is Hive tech. What else can Zerg do but build Roaches? That's not a balance whine I should add as I'm quite happy with the strength of my Zerg. I just don't see any other unit that can be the staple Zerg unit as it stands now. | ||
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Atlasy
Hungary229 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:33 Fleshcut wrote: It's too important to Zs to remove it. Why not remove the tanks from terran? They are boring. Leading to turtle style play and impossible to crack defenses. Roaches are at least mobile and get you into a real game even if I have to admit that they are boring compared to lings. But you can't remove any of them. :/ Sadly. I laughed so hard <3 thank you. Dude I'm seriously interested how did you get that conclusion. First, with HotS coming out and with it's current form Hydras are way more powerful than roaches. I believe that roaches can be jumped out. You won't need them in the game only in special situations. And you will never ever make one of them. Second, if you look back from where roaches come from you will see that they're completely crippled in their current form. Their original role was to regenerate as fast as they can and all that stuff, but it was obviously imba as shit. Now they are essential. Why? Easy because non of the Zerg units can fit in his role. Hydra could but it's too slow to actually be available. Roaches were designed to be an interesting unit, but in their current form they are kinda boring. Third, do you realize what do you say? Tanks are essential, and even I do feel like they are too weak especially if we consider that abduct is coming out soon and if it remains in it's current form it will completely cripple tanks. Tanks are designed for a slow, strategical pushes, and obviously there is that turtleish style, but it's not problem, in my opinion. Fourth, :DD that was the moment when I've laughed the hardest. Why? Comparing lings to roaches is really stupid, and calling zerglings interesting is ... strange... I mean they are not a smart-designed unit, you don't need mind to design a zergling I mean what do you need? Low health low cost low damage and speed. That's all. A 4 years old kid could design it. It's not interesting at all, It's just important. The game can't exist without them they serving an extremely important role. Not like roaches because their role could be easily overtaken by Hydras. | ||
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Bensio
United Kingdom621 Posts
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
I actually really like the Roach as a unit, I think the real problem isn't the unit itself but rather the ultra-reliance on it that zerg players have now. With the swarm host addition and hydralisk changes, I imagine that will change with HotS. Keep it in. | ||
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sertas
Sweden878 Posts
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On June 16 2012 19:56 Assirra wrote: What anti armor unit does the zerg has exactly? They don't get bonus damage against armor if that is what you mean. Yes, I know it isnt as linear as armour unit vs anti armor unit. But what I ment was that when armour units are made (tanks, colossi, thor, ultra) that there is this tier 1 unit that becomes the go to unit. Terran just makes marauders and zerg just makes roaches as very 1a friendly counters. With the Protoss its already done a little different, they have the zealots that are the beefy units and the staker is kinda mid range. It may not be always correct, but it often feels like the bigger units are balanced by making very standard, general tier 1 massable units. and therefor my dislike for the roach and the marauder. But please tell me if im very of point, because I am terran myself (and only diamond at that TT) and may very well be wrong. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43749 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:46 Chargelot wrote: The beetle. It's like a roach, but with 25% more fun built into it. It could do things like burrow underground and move, and then pop up onto unsuspecting enemies. Roaches can't do that. Roaches are boring 1a units. I totally expected this post to be written by baller. Where has he gone off to? Haven't seen him posting lately. But I agree that if we're just going to get rid of 1a units... then there goes 1/3 - 1/2 the units in the game  | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
Units usually have two major traits: Versatility and Damage. And usually when you have more Versatility, you have less damage. I definitely think that some units in SC2 have way too much damage and not enough versatility. The better units imo, have a lot of versatility, which actually is enough for you to keep using them early to mid, or mid to late game. Eg. Marine: Hits air/ground Cheap Can be stimmed and microable (splitting/etc) however very low health and (individual) damage Phoenix: Fast Air Unit Used to Scout Used to Harass Used to defend vs Muta Harassment However very low health and (individual) damage Whereas, the roach: It has lots of HP and pretty good damage. However, there is no real way to "get more" out of a roach. You can't really micro it, and burrow-movement is extremely gimmicky. The only real practical situation I can really think of is doom dropping, which you can do with any other unit. And the counter argument is that: BW Hydras don't actually have that much micro either. And yes, I would agree with you, there's actually nothing more to a hydra other than it can shoot up as ground units. However in BW, Reavers and psi storm in ZvP, and wraith harassment/heavy late game in ZvT made them so that whatever situation you were going to make hydras meant that you had to micro them and be extremely proactive about moving and relocating your hydralisk force. My biggest issue is probably the fact that roaches are redundant, the roles of the hydra and the roach overlap a little bit. That is, you could probably make a more compact game of SC2 if you just gave back the old Hydra, and focused your resources on something Zerg really does not have, that is something that really makes use of the creep mechanic rather than say "oh hey, let's make hydras unnecessarily slow off creep to make an artificial synergy". TL;DR: Try not to think about the game in terms of damage and unit counters, but units that can give you a tactical edge. | ||
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paradoxOO9
United Kingdom1123 Posts
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
On June 16 2012 19:51 Arnstein wrote: The problem with big changes, like removing the roach, is that it would change too much for the competitive players. Pro players depend on winning, and it's not fun for them to play if the game changes so much that they don't know what they're doing anymore. Trust me, Pro players don't depend on units to win them games. Part of their job sometimes is to adapt to change (hi Kespa). | ||
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DarkInfinity
121 Posts
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I totally expected this post to be written by baller. Where has he gone off to? Haven't seen him posting lately. But I agree that if we're just going to get rid of 1a units... then there goes 1/3 - 1/2 the units in the game Ahaha. Roaches can be fun units. You just have to use them correctly. Zealots are fun with charge. Stalkers are fun with blink. Marauders are fun with shells. Roaches are fun with burrow move. | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:07 Atlasy wrote: I laughed so hard <3 thank you. Dude I'm seriously interested how did you get that conclusion. First, with HotS coming out and with it's current form Hydras are way more powerful than roaches. I believe that roaches can be jumped out. You won't need them in the game only in special situations. And you will never ever make one of them. Second, if you look back from where roaches come from you will see that they're completely crippled in their current form. Their original role was to regenerate as fast as they can and all that stuff, but it was obviously imba as shit. Now they are essential. Why? Easy because non of the Zerg units can fit in his role. Hydra could but it's too slow to actually be available. Roaches were designed to be an interesting unit, but in their current form they are kinda boring. Third, do you realize what do you say? Tanks are essential, and even I do feel like they are too weak especially if we consider that abduct is coming out soon and if it remains in it's current form it will completely cripple tanks. Tanks are designed for a slow, strategical pushes, and obviously there is that turtleish style, but it's not problem, in my opinion. Fourth, :DD that was the moment when I've laughed the hardest. Why? Comparing lings to roaches is really stupid, and calling zerglings interesting is ... strange... I mean they are not a smart-designed unit, you don't need mind to design a zergling I mean what do you need? Low health low cost low damage and speed. That's all. A 4 years old kid could design it. It's not interesting at all, It's just important. The game can't exist without them they serving an extremely important role. Not like roaches because their role could be easily overtaken by Hydras. If i would be playing terran or Protoss i would post the same :D But, Hydra dies to everything, literally. It is light and needs Lair tech and its gas heavy and it needs creep (will see about the speed upg) Maybe changing the Hydra into a non-light (like the queen, without the psionic part) unit with 90 hp would work, idk. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:14 paradoxOO9 wrote: Its more the way that people use them, I still don't understand why people aren't using burrow the same way that protoss are using blink. They have great abilities like burrow movement and the health regen that just go kinda unnoticed. IMO Blink will always be more useful than burrow movement. Since you can always use blink in battles whereas you can't do the same with burrow movement. Burrow movement is mainly used to going through FFs and for its increased health regen. I don't see any other situation where burrow movement can be useful other than these two. Burrow movement loses it effectiveness as it progress towards the later stages of the game where BLs+Infestors become more prevalent on the field and roaches loses their effectiveness whereas stalker will still be useful in sniping infestors and BLs with blink.So yeah most people don't get burrow movement. Plus,Blink and Burrow Movement are 2 entirely different skills. So you can't compare them like that. | ||
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VirtuallyJesse
United States398 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
you realize that speed roaches are faster then stalker off creep, and even way faster on creep? and good luck doing that while beeing fungaled  | ||
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