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The people who say the hydra in bw is not much different from the roach are correct. But somehow I loved the hydra in broodwar and don't really like the roach (besides it's cute model).
The micro aspect is gone! If you didn't micro your hydras (storm dodging, mines,...) for 5 seconds you could lose them all in 3-4 storms for example. 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra gives you 40 hydra's versus a toss who went forge fast expand, at the time you decide to push. How is this that much different from sc2? Not so much, besides the fact that you just a-move your roaches and go back to injects. Whereas in BW you had to control your hydra's so well versus an insanely smaller army of the toss. But those 5-6 templars could ruin your day in less than a few seconds. This encouraged players to get a pack of muta's to snipe the templars. Which promotes even more micro!!
Micro doesn't exist for zergs in sc2. Moving shot doesn't exist in sc2. For christ sake, I can take a pack of roaches, put one in front of it (not in the control group) and let it dance around my entire base by using the control group of roaches. No such thing was possible in bw. Remove this gliding, smooth engine and give us back MICRO and moving shot.
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On June 17 2012 01:03 wcr.4fun wrote:
The people who say the hydra in bw is not much different from the roach are correct. But somehow I loved the hydra in broodwar and don't really like the roach (besides it's cute model).
The micro aspect is gone! If you didn't micro your hydras (storm dodging, mines,...) for 5 seconds you could lose them all in 3-4 storms for example. 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra gives you 40 hydra's versus a toss who went forge fast expand, at the time you decide to push. How is this that much different from sc2? Not so much, besides the fact that you just a-move your roaches and go back to injects. Whereas in BW you had to control your hydra's so well versus an insanely smaller army of the toss. But those 5-6 templars could ruin your day in less than a few seconds. This encouraged players to get a pack of muta's to snipe the templars. Which promotes even more micro!!
Micro doesn't exist for zergs in sc2. Moving shot doesn't exist in sc2. For christ sake, I can take a pack of roaches, put one in front of it (not in the control group) and let it dance around my entire base by using the control group of roaches. No such thing was possible in bw. Remove this gliding, smooth engine and give us back MICRO and moving shot.
How many ground units in BW have moving shot?
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Roaches are incredibly needed for the meta-game as they are really the only responses zerg has to some of the terran and protoss build. Not to mention the zvz roach battles. I think people see roaches as too good, and that is not the case. I believe that people are trying to find a way to hurt zerg due to them thinking that the race is OP. It is not. Seriously, people need to stop whining about imbalance and just play the game. If you truly want to get better, you need to set that behind yourself and admit that, when someone beats you, it's because they truly out-played you.
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Honestly, I think the game would be much better off if they just took out roach speed and replaced it with hydra speed at lair tech. Roaches are fairly rare in ZvT beyond early-game counters to hellions and reapers, and speed doesn't affect that. PvZ, would be way better off with speed-hydra + ling as the primary midgame (although we'd have to do something about colossi, preferably replace them with a unit that can harass from a warp prism), the micro would be way more two-sided with storms vs. storm dodging, blinking stalkers back while zerg tries for a surround, etc. Rather than what we have now, which is zerg a-moves in two locations, protoss has to get near-perfect FFs or just dies. ZvZ would be heavily affected, not sure hydra vs. hydra would be any better than roach vs. roach, but at least it would probably be more clear to viewers whose units are whose.
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While we are it it, remove the marauder and immortal aswell. Would make the game more interesting imo
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Roach, Marauder, Colossus, Corrupter, Hydralisk, Carrier, all in need of a serious reworking...or letting go.
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removing roaches, make hydras a bit better
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I actually find the roach a really interesting unit  ESPITE* Blizzard's best efforts.
at 75m/25g it is arguably the best unit pound for pound. Fast, tricky, tanky, hard hitting and has uses throughout the game.
But at 2 supply each roach they are the *worse* unit to max out on in the game.
Typical late game. 80 drones, 5 queens taking up about 90 supply giving you 110 supply to work with.
55 Roaches--no support.
Or 40~ roaches with a bit of support.
Or 30~ roaches with lots of support (Lings, Infestors, etc...)
It makes this nice balance where they because this unit you kind of want to have all the time, but you never really want a lot of it.
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Roaches are fine, get over it. They are the only scary zerg unit until tier 3
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Yes please remove the roach, colossus, marauder, reaper, immortal, corruptor and introduce some more exciting units! Not going to happen though.
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Ok, I never played BW but it amazes me how people fail to see the difference between the BW-hydra and the SC2-roach: in BW the hydra was ONLY useful in certain circumstances while the roach is viable pretty much the whole game. Even though this isn't necessarily a bad thing it's just bad design when mass-roach can overwhelm a stalker/immortal army. And this can often be observed when the 12 minute burst comes and toss just hasn't enough stuff yet.
The marine, on the other hand, doesn't function without at least a bit of support - even marineking needs medivacs fast-ish to make his style work vs zerg. Also the immortal is a terrible stand-alone unit. Roaches are pretty much the only unit that can still win games vs skilled opponents without having to be used together with other units.
On June 17 2012 01:10 Silky wrote:
Roaches are incredibly needed for the meta-game as they are really the only responses zerg has to some of the terran and protoss build. Not to mention the zvz roach battles. I think people see roaches as too good, and that is not the case. I believe that people are trying to find a way to hurt zerg due to them thinking that the race is OP. It is not. Seriously, people need to stop whining about imbalance and just play the game. If you truly want to get better, you need to set that behind yourself and admit that, when someone beats you, it's because they truly out-played you.
What a godawful logic - first you somehow try to claim that people see zergs as OP. That's clearly not the point of the thread. Secondly you don't even present any facts at all towards the roach. It's posts like this that make controversial threads so hard to follow.
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roaches should have a smaller collision size, less range, less damage, less hp, and cost 1 supply/hatch 2 per egg
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On June 16 2012 18:33 Fleshcut wrote:
It's too important to Zs to remove it. Why not remove the tanks from terran? They are boring. Leading to turtle style play and impossible to crack defenses. Roaches are at least mobile and get you into a real game even if I have to admit that they are boring compared to lings. But you can't remove any of them. :/ Sadly.
You're completely clueless if you think Tanks are boring.
Tanks add an incredible amount of depth to the game. Roaches do not. They are generic, all-purpose A-move units with no interesting micro depth to them whatsoever. Marauders are the same way. Sadly, Blizzard is so focused on balance that they aren't concerned with depth.
This thread screams "Turn SC2 into BW!"
Actually it only screams "Make SC2 more interesting and remove these generic, boring A-move units!"
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On June 17 2012 01:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Sadly, Blizzard is so focused on balance that they aren't concerned with depth.
Yup, agreed. Blizzard seemingly didn't spend to much thought concerning the overall design of specific units but focused more on the statistics to make it - more or less - balanced. It is sad that even with HotS most units are either imported BW-units or just another bunch of a-movers. The only exception is the blink stalker - even though hated on by many, blink is a truly unique, new thing and has delivered tons of exciting battles.
I'm no designer but surely there have to be tons of undiscovered possibilities for units that require positioning and micro?
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On June 17 2012 01:16 Kovaz wrote:
...Roaches are fairly rare in ZvT beyond early-game counters to hellions and reapers, and ...
Think back (~5-6months ago) when mech was pretty popular in TvZ, one of the answers that Zerg had was roaches. Hydras would fail in that role.
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Keep the roach but:
1.Give the roach a slight buff, as well as higher cost
or
2.Give the roach a slight nerf, and make it 1 supply
My 2 cents
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On June 17 2012 01:45 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Sadly, Blizzard is so focused on balance that they aren't concerned with depth. Yup, agreed. Blizzard seemingly didn't spend to much thought concerning the overall design of specific units but focused more on the statistics to make it - more or less - balanced. It is sad that even with HotS most units are either imported BW-units or just another bunch of a-movers. The only exception is the blink stalker - even though hated on by many, blink is a truly unique, new thing and has delivered tons of exciting battles. I'm no designer but surely there have to be tons of undiscovered possibilities for units that require positioning and micro?
There are many good things that are unique to SC2 - Creep spread, Blink, Warp In, switching addons, Banelings, Ravens (I still think they're woefully underused), and several other units. Even new units (Oracle, Swarm Host, Viper) are pretty awesome and not necessarily carbon copies of BW units.
That said, the problem is that the core units are poorly designed. The Colossus, Roach, and Marauder are incredibly boring, with very, very little micro or depth available to them, and they are very generic and are absolutely essential to the vast majority of games. Hell, having an A-move unit or two isn't even the problem; the problem is when these A-move units become the cornestone of a race's army.
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In the HotS battle reports we've seen so far, no roaches have been made. Maybe this has been already decided for us?
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On June 17 2012 01:59 Freeze967 wrote:
In the HotS battle reports we've seen so far, no roaches have been made. Maybe this has been already decided for us?
The Battle Reports can't be used as an indication of anything. The players specifically focused on new units/upgrades, regardless of what is actually best to use. They are showcases of new units, nothing more.
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we should just get rid of every unit and float our buildings at each other
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EPT
