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On June 16 2012 23:14 Asymmetric wrote:
I don't see a roach problem. It's pretty much the only unit thats durable/cheap enough to put pressure on Protoss/Terran early game and it doesn't appear too strong. Even in ZvP, the best protoss's are holding 3 base roach pushs and comming out way ahead these days if they scout and prepare correctly.
And then theres ZvZ. Removing the roach from ZvZ would pretty much devolve the match up into ling baneling wars indefinately. Even better, faster, earlier hydralisks don't stand much chance against massed ling/banelings. Hell one of the reasons broodwar ZvZ is such a stagnant match-up is because a unit like the roach never existed.
Honestly I think with the improved hydras and swarmhosts you'll see more diverse army compositions from zergs mid-game in Hots anyway but I don't see a compelling argument to get rid of roachs.
in HotS you don't need the roach to put on pressure if you have the swarm host, which spawns free units that can shoot air, combine them with zerglings and you will keep them alive.
if you put in the baneling in BW, I think the match up would honestly have stabilized more because you can literally make 2 banelings, and with enough micro, stop the player who makes 8 banelings, it's all about control, roaches don't offer the same intense gameplay as ling/bling wars do.
the viper and swarm host pretty much solve all the problems zergs had in WoL but at the same time makes the roach rather redundant. I mentioned this in the post above yours, don't know if you read it but here it is again and why I believe the roach might not be entirely necessary in HotS.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote:
Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. think about it though, early game zerg has queens to deal with any harassment, so you don't need roaches then. Sure you might need roaches for any two base mech all-in, but I think vipers and hydras and spine crawler defense will be sufficient to deal with it. Vipers will grab enemy tanks one at a time and your hydras clean up the rest, the blue flame might hurt your hydras but you have spines and queens for that. If terran does a 3 base mech push, then you should be able to get BL's or ultras out if they are maxing out on mech, so I again still don't see how roaches are absolutely necessary. And in ZvP, the viper will make the roach unnecessary as well because you can pick off colossus with zerglings if you like and use hydra speed to dodge storms. Maybe a unit to fill the anti-armored gap zerg has until ultras, but other than that, I can't think of a good enough reason to really keep the roach. in ZvZ without roaches we would see more ling/bling wars but would eventually stable out as more zergs get additional queens in ZvZ. The defensive baneling player is usually always better off, so there is a defenders advantage so it wouldn't totally eliminate longer games in ZvZ. I could be wrong, but having the viper and roach to stop mech would be overkill as you can run over mech with just roaches and overlord drops by themselves, so roaches might not be necessary in the grand scheme of things. On June 16 2012 23:07 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 22:59 okrane wrote:On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote:
Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. don't think that no other balance changes would not be made. This is not a remove roach and leave everything as it is. Remove roach and rework the game to make it more interesting in the early-mid game. Like how? Are we gonna add another roach unit in? If not blue flame still beats everything 2reactor factor hellion will kill anything without blue flame. sim city, spine crawlers, 6 queens and some banelings on top of your ramp should do it. 2reactor factory would be strong I admit, but it wouldn't be unbeatable.
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removing roaches from the game would make hellions and collusi so ridicolously overpowered.
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On June 16 2012 23:13 Gladiator333 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:48 SarcasmMonster wrote:Poll: Should the roach stay?Removed entirely and replaced with a new HOTS unit (40) 35% Keep as is (38) 34% Keep but swap tiers with Hydras (and rebalanced accordingly) (19) 17% Keep but changed (1 supply etc.) (16) 14% 113 total votes Your vote: Should the roach stay? (Vote): Keep as is
(Vote): Keep but changed (1 supply etc.)
(Vote): Keep but swap tiers with Hydras (and rebalanced accordingly)
(Vote): Removed entirely and replaced with a new HOTS unit
Lol 1 supply roaches, going back to beta? That was horribly imbalanced.
Yeah, but the roach will obviously be in need of a nerf if changed to 1 supply each.
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I haven't thought it through entirely, but I don't think I would mind if they removed the Light Tag from Hydras, then swapped Hydras and Roaches in the tech tree.
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Agree that the mechanics are interesting but rarely used. Probably because detection is too easily available in SC2.
I don't hate the roach comepletely, but I hate that it's a 2 supply unit. Zerg should have a 1 supply unit in tier 1. They should revert it.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 16 2012 23:31 0neder wrote:
Agree that the mechanics are interesting but rarely used. Probably because detection is too easily available in SC2.
I don't hate the roach comepletely, but I hate that it's a 2 supply unit. Zerg should have a 1 supply unit in tier 1. They should revert it.
Imagine Stephano, with instead of 60 roaches, having 90. The entire game becomes broken, even if the roaches had 3 range you just, can't do it. They are fast, they are tanky they have high DPS that armour upgrades don't diminish much because of one single high damage attack.
While I don't think they need to be removed the Roach is a funny funny unit. High DPS, single burst type damage that armor doesn't help much against, high hp and tanky, fast, inexpensive, 4 range. The only thing they don't do is shoot up. I know they are "supply inefficient" but when you can be 60 supply up on your opponent with the roach that isn't a problem anymore.
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On June 16 2012 18:33 Fleshcut wrote:
It's too important to Zs to remove it. Why not remove the tanks from terran? They are boring. Leading to turtle style play and impossible to crack defenses. Roaches are at least mobile and get you into a real game even if I have to admit that they are boring compared to lings. But you can't remove any of them. :/ Sadly.
Weired / Confusing / Dumb post.
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On June 16 2012 23:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 23:31 0neder wrote:
Agree that the mechanics are interesting but rarely used. Probably because detection is too easily available in SC2.
I don't hate the roach comepletely, but I hate that it's a 2 supply unit. Zerg should have a 1 supply unit in tier 1. They should revert it. Imagine Stephano, with instead of 60 roaches, having 90. The entire game becomes broken, even if the roaches had 3 range you just, can't do it. They are fast, they are tanky they have high DPS that armour upgrades don't diminish much because of one single high damage attack. While I don't think they need to be removed the Roach is a funny funny unit. High DPS, single burst type damage that armor doesn't help much against, high hp and tanky, fast, inexpensive, 4 range. The only thing they don't do is shoot up. I know they are "supply inefficient" but when you can be 60 supply up on your opponent with the roach that isn't a problem anymore.
anything and everything can be changed, if blizzard made roaches 1 supply then I'm sure something else about them would be changed, there is no way they would remain as is, come on man, it doesn't take a lot of brains to figure that out. Roaches could instead do low damaging but fast hitting attacks like zerglings to make armor more effective against roaches, banelings can be our burst damage unit.
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On June 16 2012 23:10 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote:
Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. think about it though, early game zerg has queens to deal with any harassment, so you don't need roaches then. Sure you might need roaches for any two base mech all-in, but I think vipers and hydras and spine crawler defense will be sufficient to deal with it. Vipers will grab enemy tanks one at a time and your hydras clean up the rest, the blue flame might hurt your hydras but you have spines and queens for that. If terran does a 3 base mech push, then you should be able to get BL's or ultras out if they are maxing out on mech, so I again still don't see how roaches are absolutely necessary. And in ZvP, the viper will make the roach unnecessary as well because you can pick off colossus with zerglings if you like and use hydra speed to dodge storms. Maybe a unit to fill the anti-armored gap zerg has until ultras, but other than that, I can't think of a good enough reason to really keep the roach. in ZvZ without roaches we would see more ling/bling wars but would eventually stable out as more zergs get additional queens in ZvZ. The defensive baneling player is usually always better off, so there is a defenders advantage so it wouldn't totally eliminate longer games in ZvZ. I could be wrong, but having the viper and roach to stop mech would be overkill as you can run over mech with just roaches and overlord drops by themselves, so roaches might not be necessary in the grand scheme of things. Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 23:07 CajunMan wrote:On June 16 2012 22:59 okrane wrote:On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote:
Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. don't think that no other balance changes would not be made. This is not a remove roach and leave everything as it is. Remove roach and rework the game to make it more interesting in the early-mid game. Like how? Are we gonna add another roach unit in? If not blue flame still beats everything 2reactor factor hellion will kill anything without blue flame. sim city, spine crawlers, 6 queens and some banelings on top of your ramp should do it. 2reactor factory would be strong I admit, but it wouldn't be unbeatable.
You would not have enough energy on vipers to get all the siege tanks and siege tanks smoke spines, queens, lings ,and hydras everything you have for defense. Also I have to commit 6 queen baneling and spine crawlers to stop some hellions. And that doesn't mean the terren didn't just expand behind it I would be so far behind it'd be ridiculous. The roach is important unless we are removing other races units as well. How bout this I'll get rid of the roach when medivacs are gone. That is a very poorly designed unit that makes drops 3x as effective and zerg doesn't have the same drop defense as in Broodwar. Because we forgot I guess.
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I think they should nerf or remove roaches to make them situational.I think they are the worst units in sc2 to watch.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 16 2012 23:41 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 23:34 ZeromuS wrote:On June 16 2012 23:31 0neder wrote:
Agree that the mechanics are interesting but rarely used. Probably because detection is too easily available in SC2.
I don't hate the roach comepletely, but I hate that it's a 2 supply unit. Zerg should have a 1 supply unit in tier 1. They should revert it. Imagine Stephano, with instead of 60 roaches, having 90. The entire game becomes broken, even if the roaches had 3 range you just, can't do it. They are fast, they are tanky they have high DPS that armour upgrades don't diminish much because of one single high damage attack. While I don't think they need to be removed the Roach is a funny funny unit. High DPS, single burst type damage that armor doesn't help much against, high hp and tanky, fast, inexpensive, 4 range. The only thing they don't do is shoot up. I know they are "supply inefficient" but when you can be 60 supply up on your opponent with the roach that isn't a problem anymore. anything and everything can be changed, if blizzard made roaches 1 supply then I'm sure something else about them would be changed, there is no way they would remain as is, come on man, it doesn't take a lot of brains to figure that out. Roaches could instead do low damaging but fast hitting attacks like zerglings to make armor more effective against roaches, banelings can be our burst damage unit.
Agreed that Blizz can change it but I don't think someone can say "it needs to be 1 supply" without qualifying it with "of course some things would need to change".
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On June 16 2012 23:41 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 23:10 emc wrote:On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote:
Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. think about it though, early game zerg has queens to deal with any harassment, so you don't need roaches then. Sure you might need roaches for any two base mech all-in, but I think vipers and hydras and spine crawler defense will be sufficient to deal with it. Vipers will grab enemy tanks one at a time and your hydras clean up the rest, the blue flame might hurt your hydras but you have spines and queens for that. If terran does a 3 base mech push, then you should be able to get BL's or ultras out if they are maxing out on mech, so I again still don't see how roaches are absolutely necessary. And in ZvP, the viper will make the roach unnecessary as well because you can pick off colossus with zerglings if you like and use hydra speed to dodge storms. Maybe a unit to fill the anti-armored gap zerg has until ultras, but other than that, I can't think of a good enough reason to really keep the roach. in ZvZ without roaches we would see more ling/bling wars but would eventually stable out as more zergs get additional queens in ZvZ. The defensive baneling player is usually always better off, so there is a defenders advantage so it wouldn't totally eliminate longer games in ZvZ. I could be wrong, but having the viper and roach to stop mech would be overkill as you can run over mech with just roaches and overlord drops by themselves, so roaches might not be necessary in the grand scheme of things. On June 16 2012 23:07 CajunMan wrote:On June 16 2012 22:59 okrane wrote:On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote:
Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. don't think that no other balance changes would not be made. This is not a remove roach and leave everything as it is. Remove roach and rework the game to make it more interesting in the early-mid game. Like how? Are we gonna add another roach unit in? If not blue flame still beats everything 2reactor factor hellion will kill anything without blue flame. sim city, spine crawlers, 6 queens and some banelings on top of your ramp should do it. 2reactor factory would be strong I admit, but it wouldn't be unbeatable. You would not have enough energy on vipers to get all the siege tanks and siege tanks smoke spines, queens, lings ,and hydras everything you have for defense. Also I have to commit 6 queen baneling and spine crawlers to stop some hellions. And that doesn't mean the terren didn't just expand behind it I would be so far behind it'd be ridiculous. The roach is important unless we are removing other races units as well. How bout this I'll get rid of the roach when medivacs are gone. That is a very poorly designed unit that makes drops 3x as effective and zerg doesn't have the same drop defense as in Broodwar. Because we forgot I guess.
thats a good point, I will give it to you there. Zerg can't very well prepare for a hellion all-in and also a 2 base mech all-in, but then again, wouldn't that just promote better scouting? 2 reactor factory and 2 base all-in mech is two different things. And also you didn't realize that the viper has consume? since you are defending, you are near your own base and can consume your own buildings, then go back and pick off another tank. With hydra/ling/viper, the more mobile army, you can pick off pieces of his army from the middle of the map, consume at your base and be ready for the main engagement by the time he arrives at your base. Theory crafting of course, but when I get my hands on HotS I won't be making a single roach during the beta, just to see if I can pull it off.
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On June 16 2012 23:42 Silentenigma wrote:
I think they should nerf or remove roaches to make them situational.I think they are the worst units in sc2 to watch.
yea but that's kind of like... implied. if blizzard suddenly gave marines 6 range, you would have to assume they costed more or got nerfed in some other way because there is no way in hell a 6 range marine would at all be balanced, just like 1 supply roach.
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On June 16 2012 23:46 emc wrote:
thats a good point, I will give it to you there. Zerg can't very well prepare for a hellion all-in and also a 2 base mech all-in, but then again, wouldn't that just promote better scouting? 2 reactor factory and 2 base all-in mech is two different things. And also you didn't realize that the viper has consume? since you are defending, you are near your own base and can consume your own buildings, then go back and pick off another tank. With hydra/ling/viper, the more mobile army, you can pick off pieces of his army from the middle of the map, consume at your base and be ready for the main engagement by the time he arrives at your base. Theory crafting of course, but when I get my hands on HotS I won't be making a single roach during the beta, just to see if I can pull it off.
Well scouting is good but mech allins will still hit like a brick shit house and the problem I see happening isn't that vipers won't be good with consume but will you get past 1 use. I think a good terren will just move all the way up to your natural and siege then you can pull them all you want he's already hitting you. The problem is you can just keep backing up it doesn't matter how mobile your army is it will never be able to fight the mech army head on at any point without roaches early and he'll just steam roll you without time for multiple pulls or consumes. Zerg by design needs a more bases and when these allins hit you are just getting your third up and relying on 3-4 different techs of units to defend the push on 2 extremely gas intensive units I don't think you will have the income to support Hydra, Viper, Ling + whatever else in mass number enough to stop any Thor, Tank, hellion, scv push.
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I'm not sure why people are saying "its too important to remove" when the whole point is the game is being redesigned / revamped, so there is the possibility of changing other things to remove a unit that doesn't fit zerg, and makes the game more boring / bland.
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one supply roach could be balanced, everything could be balanced, units are just numbers, just make the damn roach more zergish(1 supply) and a stronger burrow-move, same for the marauders , need to be reworked.
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On June 16 2012 18:33 Fleshcut wrote:
It's too important to Zs to remove it. Why not remove the tanks from terran? They are boring. Leading to turtle style play and impossible to crack defenses. Roaches are at least mobile and get you into a real game even if I have to admit that they are boring compared to lings. But you can't remove any of them. :/ Sadly.
Tanks are not boring. How is watching things get blown to tiny bits boring? Now roaches are boring. Things die in acid pool of death...lame.
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On June 16 2012 18:31 okrane wrote:
Honest question to forumers.
We have a new installment of the game, a chance to set things right, to repair past mistakes and design flaws, to make the game sharper and better than it was before.
And still we have this god awful boring and bland unit in the core of the zerg army.
The expansion could be a way of removing it and adding another solution for Zerg early tier which would make things more interesting and fun to watch.
All opinions are welcome.
I really agree with this. Just give Hydra's their run speed back naturally and move them back to being a tier 1 unit.
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On June 16 2012 23:57 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 23:46 emc wrote:
thats a good point, I will give it to you there. Zerg can't very well prepare for a hellion all-in and also a 2 base mech all-in, but then again, wouldn't that just promote better scouting? 2 reactor factory and 2 base all-in mech is two different things. And also you didn't realize that the viper has consume? since you are defending, you are near your own base and can consume your own buildings, then go back and pick off another tank. With hydra/ling/viper, the more mobile army, you can pick off pieces of his army from the middle of the map, consume at your base and be ready for the main engagement by the time he arrives at your base. Theory crafting of course, but when I get my hands on HotS I won't be making a single roach during the beta, just to see if I can pull it off. Well scouting is good but mech allins will still hit like a brick shit house and the problem I see happening isn't that vipers won't be good with consume but will you get past 1 use. I think a good terren will just move all the way up to your natural and siege then you can pull them all you want he's already hitting you. The problem is you can just keep backing up it doesn't matter how mobile your army is it will never be able to fight the mech army head on at any point without roaches early and he'll just steam roll you without time for multiple pulls or consumes. Zerg by design needs a more bases and when these allins hit you are just getting your third up and relying on 3-4 different techs of units to defend the push on 2 extremely gas intensive units I don't think you will have the income to support Hydra, Viper, Ling + whatever else in mass number enough to stop any Thor, Tank, hellion, scv push.
well it could very well be that mass swarm host counters any mech all-in perfectly but we just don't know it. I see how necessary roaches are in WoL but in HotS? I feel like roaches could be avoided completely.
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Roaches are fine. Besides, low cost early game fast moving hydras are going to be a bit overpowered.
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