EPTDo we still want the Roach in HotS? - Page 9
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
Roach 145 HP --> 135 HP Hydra 80 HP --> 90 HP how about some t2 hydra defense yo? | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:40 Jermstuddog wrote: Hydra speed is going to he a lot less interesting than Blizz makes it out to be. I already end a good 90% of my games before hive tech, so hydras will remain equally non-viable as they currently are, then let's look at the all the counter techs that are available at hive tech that Blizz conveniently ignored in their HotS preview. ZvP already has the colossus, storm, and hydras struggle with effectiveness vs standard gateway armies anyway. I hardly see them becoming the go-to endgame unit by adding a little bit of move speed... They might replace roaches, which are hardly the go-to unit themselves, rather, theyre used for the final punch after the major fight has been won and all the core units on high sides get wiped out. The HotS preview looked nice, but I was shaking my head the whole time. That whole game was one of those ladder games you have where you're just disappointed with yourself for playing so stupidly regardless of whether you win or lose. The speed upgrade is nice, and fixes one of MANY issues with the hydra, but for the vast majority of games, it will prove to be too little, too late. I see what you're saying, but zerg has new tools that actually make the hydra good with speed. The viper alone will actually make hydras strong, and how is storm a problem when you now have speed and can actually dodge storms? The thing is that in WoL getting hive tech early for anything but upgrades is a waste of resources because you need 4 bases to support any hive units, but in HotS, getting hive tech early for hydra speed will be worth it since we now have vipers and swarm hosts at our disposal. Swarm host, hydra, viper will be pretty strong, whether you think the battle report was a fraud or not, if you think that unit combination won't be effective, then have fun playing a WoL roach style in HotS. But I could be wrong, just as wrong as I think you are being now, but we won't know for sure until the beta is out. | ||
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mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
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Synche
United States1345 Posts
A high tech ultimate a-move unit, needs to go. | ||
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NoMicroWin
United States688 Posts
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
Instead the classic duel of Protoss with blink stalkers vs mass roaches, trying to out-micro and focus fire with his stalkers while the zerg just sends masses of units, I'd rather see both Protoss focus on his blink stalker, and the zerg focus on his burrow micro, and the player with the best micro wins. It would be kind of like blink wars, but with a different flavor, and not necessarily bad, PvP may have tons of shortcomings as a match up, but blink stalker wars are definitely one of the most entertaining and intense sights to behold. The Problem is: Burrow is not Blink and will never be Blink is instant, Burrow takes a few seconds (both ways) A Blinkstalker Blinked back still fires whil recharging Shields (so its no DPS loss) Blink does take 3 Actions (Select, Hotkey, Klick) while Burrow takes 4 (Select, Hotkey, ShiftKlick, ShiftHotkey) A single Detector makes Burrow Micro useless There is no way Burrow could ever be used like Blink | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:49 emc wrote: I see what you're saying, but zerg has new tools that actually make the hydra good with speed. The viper alone will actually make hydras strong, and how is storm a problem when you now have speed and can actually dodge storms? The thing is that in WoL getting hive tech early for anything but upgrades is a waste of resources because you need 4 bases to support any hive units, but in HotS, getting hive tech early for hydra speed will be worth it since we now have vipers and swarm hosts at our disposal. Swarm host, hydra, viper will be pretty strong, whether you think the battle report was a fraud or not, if you think that unit combination won't be effective, then have fun playing a WoL roach style in HotS. But I could be wrong, just as wrong as I think you are being now, but we won't know for sure until the beta is out. Well hydra and viper could be good but we need to wait for the beta. The feedback for the swarm host is really underwhelming from the HotS not sure why though. | ||
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
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okrane
France265 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote: Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. don't think that no other balance changes would not be made. This is not a remove roach and leave everything as it is. Remove roach and rework the game to make it more interesting in the early-mid game. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:57 FakeDeath wrote: Well hydra and viper could be good but we need to wait for the beta. The feedback for the swarm host is really underwhelming from the HotS not sure why though. I think the SH will be amazing, since it requires infestation pit and it only costs 100 gas, it will have some good synergy with infestors. burrow some SH outside an enemies natural then fungal any units that try and snipe them, I already foresee this being a cool build to try. Oh, and since infestation pit unlocks hive, you can then go fast hive for hydras, I think it will work out as a pretty legit strat. | ||
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:59 okrane wrote: don't think that no other balance changes would not be made. This is not a remove roach and leave everything as it is. Remove roach and rework the game to make it more interesting in the early-mid game. Like how? Are we gonna add another roach unit in? If not blue flame still beats everything 2reactor factor hellion will kill anything without blue flame. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:58 CajunMan wrote: Without roaches early mech pushes would break the game. Because of blue flame, thor, and tank roaches become absolutely necessary early game. Until brood lords come out if we only had ling hydra early to defend that every unit terren produced would shit on them and the games wouldn't go past 12 min ever. think about it though, early game zerg has queens to deal with any harassment, so you don't need roaches then. Sure you might need roaches for any two base mech all-in, but I think vipers and hydras and spine crawler defense will be sufficient to deal with it. Vipers will grab enemy tanks one at a time and your hydras clean up the rest, the blue flame might hurt your hydras but you have spines and queens for that. If terran does a 3 base mech push, then you should be able to get BL's or ultras out if they are maxing out on mech, so I again still don't see how roaches are absolutely necessary. And in ZvP, the viper will make the roach unnecessary as well because you can pick off colossus with zerglings if you like and use hydra speed to dodge storms. Maybe a unit to fill the anti-armored gap zerg has until ultras, but other than that, I can't think of a good enough reason to really keep the roach. in ZvZ without roaches we would see more ling/bling wars but would eventually stable out as more zergs get additional queens in ZvZ. The defensive baneling player is usually always better off, so there is a defenders advantage so it wouldn't totally eliminate longer games in ZvZ. I could be wrong, but having the viper and roach to stop mech would be overkill as you can run over mech with just roaches and overlord drops by themselves, so roaches might not be necessary in the grand scheme of things. On June 16 2012 23:07 CajunMan wrote: Like how? Are we gonna add another roach unit in? If not blue flame still beats everything 2reactor factor hellion will kill anything without blue flame. sim city, spine crawlers, 6 queens and some banelings on top of your ramp should do it. 2reactor factory would be strong I admit, but it wouldn't be unbeatable. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:35 Amlitzer wrote: The thing I hate about the roach is that it has these really interesting mechanics (burrow move and regen) that go unused 99% of the time. Instead they are just used as a pure dps unit, which isn't what I imagine blizzard intending at all. I think they really need to revert their range back to 3 for starters. Yeah I think this is true, roaches doesn't mean to play this way. There was a hack bot, sort of like blink stalker hack, that show such potential of roaches. Basically you flank everywhere with 5-or-more-roach groups, and keep burrowing the injured one and pop up when they full health. Hell, you don't even need those tactical strikes, just a-move the roaches in, but as the hack bot shows, when the front roaches' hp got low, you burrow it, and let the back roaches take care of the battle while the front roach still regen and burrow-move into the enemy, then when they're full hp again, just pop up in middle of the enemy and crush faces. Roach is beefy, high dps, has strong escape mechanism, but we never make use of it. That was the very reason why we have the burrow and unborrow hotkey together, it's much easier to do that trick if you have both of them on the same hotkey. It's a shame that roach use never evolve into what it meant to be. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:48 SarcasmMonster wrote: Poll: Should the roach stay? Removed entirely and replaced with a new HOTS unit (40) Keep as is (38) Keep but swap tiers with Hydras (and rebalanced accordingly) (19) Keep but changed (1 supply etc.) (16) 113 total votes Your vote: Should the roach stay? (Vote): Keep as is Lol 1 supply roaches, going back to beta? That was horribly imbalanced. | ||
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Asymmetric
Scotland1309 Posts
And then theres ZvZ. Removing the roach from ZvZ would pretty much devolve the match up into ling baneling wars indefinately. Even better, faster, earlier hydralisks don't stand much chance against massed ling/banelings. Hell one of the reasons broodwar ZvZ is such a stagnant match-up is because a unit like the roach never existed. Honestly I think with the improved hydras and swarmhosts you'll see more diverse army compositions from zergs mid-game in Hots anyway but I don't see a compelling argument to get rid of roachs. | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
But if we are going to theorycraft it could be abit more interesting to have them be at 1 supply with less damage to get more of a swarm feel  | ||
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IIIOmegaIII
Sweden319 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:40 Yorbon wrote: Marines OP, remove them. And there are enough other games with infantery shooting with guns: not so original. Also, the zealot is pretty bland. Roach is too standard in zerg army to get rid from. Small steps are needed to do so with good replacement. Imo not possible until lotv. em....wat?? thats pure bs. u remove the marine, u remove the repressentative unit for terran. really wierd statement. same with the zealots. both of them are the symbolic units for respective race, removing them would just mess it all up. also, why remove the roaches? so cool unit. | ||
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