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On June 16 2012 20:23 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:14 paradoxOO9 wrote:
Its more the way that people use them, I still don't understand why people aren't using burrow the same way that protoss are using blink. They have great abilities like burrow movement and the health regen that just go kinda unnoticed. IMO Blink will always be more useful than burrow movement. Since you can always use blink in battles whereas you can't do the same with burrow movement. Burrow movement is mainly used to going through FFs and for its increased health regen. I don't see any other situation where burrow movement can be useful other than these two. Plus,Blink and Burrow Movement are 2 entirely different skills. So you can't compare them like that.
Proper burrow micro means that roaches aren't focused down. So Terran is targeting roches with his marines, you burrow the roach he's hitting before it dies, and then they will have to target a new unit. That roach doesn't necessarily need to get full health before it resurfaces. It just means the roach lives longer, and has more damage output before it dies. Which is how blink micro works in battle. This isn't really done, with roaches it's always burrow everything and risk scan/obs or don't even bother with burrow.
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As a Roach hater myself, I thought about this too. I've come up with one solution, to keep the Zergling and Hydralisk at tier 1, and to add a 3rd tier 1 unit designed for tanking and holding off Gateway units and Marauders.
The key lies with the Baneling.
Step 1
The Baneling is now a seperate Larva unit at Lair tech. Making this unit stronger and better since it got bumped in tech is possible.
Step 2
Hydralisk back to Hatchery tech as commonly suggested. Unit stats need to be adjusted.
Step 3
The Zergling can now morph into the Roach at Hatchery level. Roach stats need to be adjusted. Personally I think they would be more intersesting if they were melee units.
This way, at Hatchery level, your army can consist of Zerglings, Hydras, and melee Roaches. Perhaps Roaches can get a special ability that makes them tuck into a ball for added health/armor and regeneration. This way the opponent has to choose whether to attack the healing idle-Roaches, or ignore them and move on, but will have to face them again later.
At Lair tech you get Air+Baneling+Infestor+Swarm Host
At Hive tech you get More Air+Ultra
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On June 16 2012 19:08 Vindicare605 wrote:
The Roach by itself is a little bland, but when mixed with Burrow and Burrow movement they are actually pretty interesting units later on. By comparison the Hydralisk is far more straight forward yet no one complains about IT being a boring unit.
oh no we complain about it, but we are smart not to discuss balance on TL because it warrants bans. I'm still unsure how this thread is still open, so I guess the new rules are everyone can make a balance/whine thread as long as it has HotS in it?
By comparison the marauder is a much much more bland unit, it doesn't even have a micro mechanic like burrow, burrow regen and burrow movement. I think this thread is silly, I mean what unit do you replace it with? Oh right, I was thinking about how zerg needs the roach then I remember that zerg has 5 range queens and really don't need the roach anymore. I'm sure there might be a timing attack that could hurt zerg without the roach but I'm still thinking what it could be when zerg still has mutas.
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On June 16 2012 20:27 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:23 FakeDeath wrote:On June 16 2012 20:14 paradoxOO9 wrote:
Its more the way that people use them, I still don't understand why people aren't using burrow the same way that protoss are using blink. They have great abilities like burrow movement and the health regen that just go kinda unnoticed. IMO Blink will always be more useful than burrow movement. Since you can always use blink in battles whereas you can't do the same with burrow movement. Burrow movement is mainly used to going through FFs and for its increased health regen. I don't see any other situation where burrow movement can be useful other than these two. Plus,Blink and Burrow Movement are 2 entirely different skills. So you can't compare them like that. Proper burrow micro means that roaches aren't focused down. So Terran is targeting roches with his marines, you burrow the roach he's hitting before it dies, and then they will have to target a new unit. That roach doesn't necessarily need to get full health before it resurfaces. It just means the roach lives longer, and has more damage output before it dies. Which is how blink micro works in battle. This isn't really done, with roaches it's always burrow everything and risk scan/obs or don't even bother with burrow.
Uh burrow micro's used, it's just not as good as blink, that's why it's not as prevalent.
With blink, you can reposition your entire army while fighting. How many times have you seen an engagement where the blink stalkers start off in a bad concave and end up in a superior one? Burrow can't do that.
Blink is also a single step process, with burrow, you have to unburrow again, to make it fight. That makes it less useful than blink, not to mention that the weaken stalkers are still firing after blinking back unlike the burrowed roaches.
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It does seem a bit too efficient for it's cost.
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On June 16 2012 18:31 okrane wrote:
And still we have this god awful boring and bland unit in the core of the zerg army.
I don't agree with this line of reasoning at all. If anything, Starcraft 2 needs more units like the Roach, Marauder, (WoL) Hellion, (non-Blink) Stalker or Mutalisk. Not the exact same units, obviously, but units which are straightforward, kind of "ergonomic" (easy to pick up and control, microable), that ideally don't have any fancy special abilities or features.
It's the fundamental RTS unit - 90% of units are supposed to be like this, with key differences being in speed, range, pathing and grouping AI, type of damage, armor, etc.
What we need is less spellcasters (especially AoE) and weird or wacky abilities. These cause the most problems with the game, cause the most balance issues and also make the game less skillful as a whole, especially with smartcasting.
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Roaches are fine, yes they can be boring if you max them and 1a but so most units. It just depends how you use them.
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On June 16 2012 20:23 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:14 paradoxOO9 wrote:
Its more the way that people use them, I still don't understand why people aren't using burrow the same way that protoss are using blink. They have great abilities like burrow movement and the health regen that just go kinda unnoticed. IMO Blink will always be more useful than burrow movement. Since you can always use blink in battles whereas you can't do the same with burrow movement. Burrow movement is mainly used to going through FFs and for its increased health regen. I don't see any other situation where burrow movement can be useful other than these two. Burrow movement loses it effectiveness as it progress towards the later stages of the game where BLs+Infestors become more prevalent on the field and roaches loses their effectiveness whereas stalker will still be useful in sniping infestors and BLs with blink.So yeah most people don't get burrow movement. Plus,Blink and Burrow Movement are 2 entirely different skills. So you can't compare them like that.
I mean in regards to when the roach gets low on health using burrow on it to stop it from dying then unburrowing it after, the way that a weakened stalker would blink back.
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On June 16 2012 20:26 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 19:37 Hall0wed wrote:On June 16 2012 19:28 Ryder. wrote:On June 16 2012 19:08 Hall0wed wrote:On June 16 2012 18:38 freetgy wrote:
I think roaches are fine, but the are to fast & tanky for the ressourc cost.
usually a unit is either fast or tanky.
A speed roach has movement speed of 4 on creep.....almost as fast as speedlings.
As far as i am aware 2 roaches beat any equivalent of 150/50 ressource army of the opponents, which makes them a very boring a-move unit in most of the cases. 1 Stalker Yes 2 roaches do beat 1 stalker, what's your point? Micro you realize that speed roaches are faster then stalker off creep, and even way faster on creep? and good luck doing that while beeing fungaled 
You do realize that Roach speed costs money and Infestors also cost money last I checked. Obviously this would put you well over the 150/50 cap that was established in the initial post.
Nice try you guys. ^_^
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Roach is pretty good in general. It is quite interesting to have burrow movement and regen. But I have always questioned the big claw. *It was originally a melee units and it attacks really fast with the 2 claws. But since it is a range unit, should the claws be gone and re-model to a more "Green poison spewing bug"?
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OP asks a question, 50% of replies are Protoss QQ ...
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On June 16 2012 20:40 paradoxOO9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:23 FakeDeath wrote:On June 16 2012 20:14 paradoxOO9 wrote:
Its more the way that people use them, I still don't understand why people aren't using burrow the same way that protoss are using blink. They have great abilities like burrow movement and the health regen that just go kinda unnoticed. IMO Blink will always be more useful than burrow movement. Since you can always use blink in battles whereas you can't do the same with burrow movement. Burrow movement is mainly used to going through FFs and for its increased health regen. I don't see any other situation where burrow movement can be useful other than these two. Burrow movement loses it effectiveness as it progress towards the later stages of the game where BLs+Infestors become more prevalent on the field and roaches loses their effectiveness whereas stalker will still be useful in sniping infestors and BLs with blink.So yeah most people don't get burrow movement. Plus,Blink and Burrow Movement are 2 entirely different skills. So you can't compare them like that. I mean in regards to when the roach gets low on health using burrow on it to stop it from dying then unburrowing it after, the way that a weakened stalker would blink back.
The problem is blinking is a single step process whereas burrow and then unburrowing is a two step process.
This itself makes stalker blink micro much easier than the roach burrow-unburrow movement in battle scenario.
Not only that blinking back your stalker won't decrease your army dps since they only blink to the back of the army
whereas the roach burrow and unburrow reduces army dps and take time for roach to heal up.
Also, blinking back your army into better concaves which increase your army fighting dps whereas burrow can't do the same.
That's why i believe Blink is more superior than Burrow movement in battle situation which is mainly used for going through FFs and mainly for healing up your unit when not in battle.
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On June 16 2012 20:32 Masemium wrote:
As a Roach hater myself, I thought about this too. I've come up with one solution, to keep the Zergling and Hydralisk at tier 1, and to add a 3rd tier 1 unit designed for tanking and holding off Gateway units and Marauders.
The key lies with the Baneling.
Step 1
The Baneling is now a seperate Larva unit at Lair tech. Making this unit stronger and better since it got bumped in tech is possible.
Step 2
Hydralisk back to Hatchery tech as commonly suggested. Unit stats need to be adjusted.
Step 3
The Zergling can now morph into the Roach at Hatchery level. Roach stats need to be adjusted. Personally I think they would be more intersesting if they were melee units.
This way, at Hatchery level, your army can consist of Zerglings, Hydras, and melee Roaches. Perhaps Roaches can get a special ability that makes them tuck into a ball for added health/armor and regeneration. This way the opponent has to choose whether to attack the healing idle-Roaches, or ignore them and move on, but will have to face them again later.
At Lair tech you get Air+Baneling+Infestor+Swarm Host
At Hive tech you get More Air+Ultra
That was an idea i had back in beta in one of my micro mods haha. I approve.
Ideally they would be used for trapping units rather than DPS though.
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Not a fan of the roach and would love to see it disappear. Zerg needs a beefy defensive unit but it shouldn't be so abusable in large numbers. Personally I feel that giving it an interesting twist like being really slow unburrowed but relatively quick burrow movement speed would make for a more technical unit that encourages more micro. I feel they should be reasonable in small numbers but much weaker in large numbers, and just enough punch to help manage zealots and hellions.
But I'd love something more technical and tougher to use. The Roach sucks.
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here is my set of ideas for working more micro potential into the game while keeping it just as noob/a-move friendly and all that
Roach
Make it 200hp/2armor/24dmg/2.4sec attack delay/3 range/2.25ms/3supply/150min/75gas and give it base 10 burrowed regen & hive upgrade that makes it 20 burrowed regen, this will make it much more effective to micro (currently whenever I talk to any1 good at sc2 about any micro involving conserving roaches thru burrow or transfuse they say its too expensive on apm & too low on resources saved, this will help that a ton) and make it's burrowed movement 2 instead of 1.44, make lair speed upgrade give it 2.75 burrowed movement speed, this actually isnt that scary because its stats are going up much less than cost & the regen increase is offset by the fact that fewer roaches are regenerating (ie 4 new roaches burrowed regen 40hps but equal cost of old roaches wud be 9 old roaches regening 45hps, actually a bit less but for less apm), this makes it a much more "special" unit and way more hilariously fun to use and much more worth microing
marauder: this is already interesting because it adds a new dimension to scoot-n-shoot micro & with micro become rather good even against units that it has low damage vs (ie zeals)
colossus: this unit is "static," that is, if you have it then you wreck the enemy's face (yes, the viking/colossus dancing can be interesting, but that is the only case where the colossus really gets any micro, and that isnt as fun as the micro that would come out if what i am suggesting happened). Also, it has a lot of potential for harassing on its own (a la reaper) but that potential is shut down by the fact that it is so slow (both points supported by great success/decent popularity of speed prism/colossus harass). Now, what if the colossus's range was reduced to 7 but its movement speed was increased to 3 with an upgrade to 3.75 and its firing animation was made so that the period where any order cancels the attack is tiny (a la marine but not quite that crazy) and it could no longer be attacked as air, then you have really interesting dancing between the colossus and the enemy ground force where the colossus is exploiting is smaller range advantage but higher ms & short attack animation to kite the enemy force if the enemy force tries to focus it & whaling on them if the enemy force doesn't focus the colossus, it would also have significant potential as a harasser with its high ms & good aoe dmg & range and cliff-hopping (see hots reaper)
All of this is for Hots, of course.
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On June 16 2012 18:55 Cascade wrote:
Everyone can complain about things not working perfectly ("collosus OP", "marines imba", "BL inf unbeatable" etc), but without constructive ideas on how the situation can be improved, complaining doesn't help anyone.
That's feedback, and while it doesn't mean roaches will be removed for HotS, Blizzard may act on it at a later stage given they find something to replace the roach with, when they know that the unit isn't very popular. Complaining does help, and what does it hurt?
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Poll: Should the roach stay?Removed entirely and replaced with a new HOTS unit (40) 35% Keep as is (38) 34% Keep but swap tiers with Hydras (and rebalanced accordingly) (19) 17% Keep but changed (1 supply etc.) (16) 14% 113 total votes Your vote: Should the roach stay? (Vote): Keep as is
(Vote): Keep but changed (1 supply etc.)
(Vote): Keep but swap tiers with Hydras (and rebalanced accordingly)
(Vote): Removed entirely and replaced with a new HOTS unit
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That would change so much into the balance of the game, Blizzard will never do it.
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they can with HOTS, because there will be anyway balance changes..
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Do we really need the marine? Fuck it, lets get rid of the zealot while were at it!
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EPT
