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On June 16 2012 19:18 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 19:11 F-Decoy wrote:
3 range instead of 4 is a huge nerf. Some ppl already forgot. Before the 4 range buff, roach weren't often used especially vs Protoss because of FF. 25% range nerf or boost isn't nothing. This was actually the most terrible change overall - I would have preferred any other change. The thing is, roaches are, in my opinion, supposed to be used against aggressive gateway-play early on, especially zealots. But like protoss can't beat terran MM with pure gateway-units, it shouldn't be "that" big of a problem for zergs to rely on something else a little bit further into the game.
There is a reason Zergs take to the skies in the lategame you know. Roaches are viable in every stage of the game to some extent rather than being an only 'anti-gateway' unit. Zerglings in the lategame just melt to anything, same with Hydralisks. Protoss' splash damage is just so strong that we NEED a tanky unit to stand a chance on the ground against anything that has more than 2 collosi in the army. If you just want roaches to be viable against gateway units, you're essentially doing what the hydralisk is now. Tell me that the Hydralisk is in a good position in the game right now, I dare you.
Roach range increase was the best change for the roach because it made them less of a 1a unit because now you were able to snipe stuff rather than just trying to get into range. Doing anything like increasing health or armour or decreasing cost would have made the unit more boring and even more of a splash tanker.
If you think 3 base roach spam is bad, think of 5 hatch hydra bust in broodwar. That could bust protoss pretty well and hit both ground AND air.
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burrow move is very cool, but otherwise I would rather hydra be better and tier 1. it seems like it might get more late game use in the future at least, probably phasing out roaches somewhat like they should have already been doing for late game.
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On June 16 2012 18:36 Garmer wrote:
tank boring, what? blasphemy.... roach are ten time more boring 1a units
Imho roach should cost 1 supply 100hp/3 range and same dps as now, but with a passive ability in his attack(like the devourer)
Roaches' biggest drawback is their supply inefficiency. Even with increased cost, just halving their supply makes them infinitely much better. Not going to happen.
edit: I hope burrow move becomes passive (maybe burrow research time increased a bit to not make the timings to fast) and then reduce its' armor by 1. Make it a bit less tanky a-move, more harassy/micro-encouraging.
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On June 16 2012 18:46 Chargelot wrote:The beetle. It's like a roach, but with 25% more fun built into it. It could do things like burrow underground and move, and then pop up onto unsuspecting enemies. Roaches can't do that. Roaches are boring 1a units.
The beetle sounds awesome.
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On June 16 2012 18:31 okrane wrote:
Honest question to forumers.
We have a new installment of the game, a chance to set things right, to repair past mistakes and design flaws, to make the game sharper and better than it was before.
And still we have this god awful boring and bland unit in the core of the zerg army.
The expansion could be a way of removing it and adding another solution for Zerg early tier which would make things more interesting and fun to watch.
All opinions are welcome.
I think you make a mistake by having a unit-centric view on the game. I prefer more to think in tech paths and strategy directions. The roaches for example can be microed against force fields (with burrow movement.) It's not easy to just replace the roach.
On another note, I like the roach and don't find it boring at all. While the roach is somewhat 1-A viable (since the range was upgraded to 4) it should be used with some micro.
In SC2, zerg has no anti-air unit until tier 2 (save for the queen.) One cannot simply put the hydra back to tier 1.5 without making all races more equal (terran has anti-air with tier 1, protoss with 1.5)
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If roaches were to be removed from zerg then hydralisks would have to be moved down to tier one and this would probably make for less exciting games.
PvZ: Hydralisks pretty much hard counters zealots, sentries and stalkers and tier on hydralisks would end all early game aggression from protoss.
TvZ: Every T would mass hellions and hardly ever use marauders since the only armored unit in the zerg ground arsenal would be the ultralisk.
I do think the raoch is a boring unit but the game is sort of built around it at this point.
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I wouldnt be surprised if 80-90% of players wants the roach/Colossus/marauder gone. To bad its te 10-20% that works for blizzard.
I think that when the Colossus is gone it would be easier for zerg to figh without roaches, and easier for terran to fight without marauders.
Give the zerg tier 1 Hydra's, with a Tier 2 speed boost and we could possibly have a more awesome game overall. And they can replace the tier 2 hydra with the swarm host.
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On June 16 2012 19:28 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 19:08 Hall0wed wrote:On June 16 2012 18:38 freetgy wrote:
I think roaches are fine, but the are to fast & tanky for the ressourc cost.
usually a unit is either fast or tanky.
A speed roach has movement speed of 4 on creep.....almost as fast as speedlings.
As far as i am aware 2 roaches beat any equivalent of 150/50 ressource army of the opponents, which makes them a very boring a-move unit in most of the cases. 1 Stalker Yes 2 roaches do beat 1 stalker, what's your point?
Micro
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On June 16 2012 19:36 Deckkie wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if 80-90% of players wants the roach/Colossus/marauder gone. To bad its te 10-20% that works for blizzard.
I think that when the Colossus is gone it would be easier for zerg to figh without roaches, and easier for terran to fight without marauders.
Give the zerg tier 1 Hydra's, with a Tier 2 speed boost and we could possibly have a more awesome game overall. And they can replace the tier 2 hydra with the swarm host.
So every race has regular anti-air units before tier 2? Sounds not so awesome to me with that much symmetry.
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On June 16 2012 19:07 sluggaslamoo wrote:
I would like to see the Roach/Marauder/Colossus/Immortal removed.
And 1 supply hydras with speed upgrade at hatch tech returned.
Agreed except the immortal and hydra speed upgrade at hatch (maybe lair would be more realistic). They are much more niche units that can fill a role but will get owned in other circumstances rather than the "one size fits all" mentality of collossus/roach and the boringness or the marauder.
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dont like the game? dont play then
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On June 16 2012 18:38 freetgy wrote:
I think roaches are fine, but the are to fast & tanky for the ressourc cost.
usually a unit is either fast or tanky.
A speed roach has movement speed of 4 on creep.....almost as fast as speedlings.
As far as i am aware 2 roaches beat any equivalent of 150/50 ressource army of the opponents, which makes them a very boring a-move unit in most of the cases.
Colossus does a lot of DPS and are EXTREMELY mobile. Most units in this game are a move units but it is how you position them before you a move them is what make them interesting. Like marines, it is so great when people split them and then a move them which looks really cool.
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My problem with roaches are they don't feel like a zerg unit. 145 hp, 1 armor, 16 (!) damage for a t1.5 unit? Seems more like a protoss unit hiding in a shell than a zerg unit.
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buff hydra survival for hots aswell, make them tier 1 unit, and remove roaches! roaches worst thing that happend to zerg... of course will take balancing, but will be so much better
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On June 16 2012 19:38 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 19:36 Deckkie wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if 80-90% of players wants the roach/Colossus/marauder gone. To bad its te 10-20% that works for blizzard.
I think that when the Colossus is gone it would be easier for zerg to figh without roaches, and easier for terran to fight without marauders.
Give the zerg tier 1 Hydra's, with a Tier 2 speed boost and we could possibly have a more awesome game overall. And they can replace the tier 2 hydra with the swarm host. So every race has regular anti-air units before tier 2? Sounds not so awesome to me with that much symmetry.
The thing is that at this point every race has a regular anti armour unit at tier 1, and that kind of symmetry isnt very awesome to me. Especially when it feels as if every armour unit is balanced against the tier 1 anti armour unit.
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Either 1 supply (but slightly weaker) Roachs or tier1 Hydras. Zerg doesn't feel swarm-y enough in WOL and less fun to play because of it.
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The problem with big changes, like removing the roach, is that it would change too much for the competitive players. Pro players depend on winning, and it's not fun for them to play if the game changes so much that they don't know what they're doing anymore.
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I'd love to see it go, but I'm not sure how that'd work. Sure, Hydras will be a lot better but still...
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On June 16 2012 19:51 Arnstein wrote:
The problem with big changes, like removing the roach, is that it would change too much for the competitive players. Pro players depend on winning, and it's not fun for them to play if the game changes so much that they don't know what they're doing anymore.
obviously change like this, should come with hots, where there is already a reset of the game, not with a patch
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On June 16 2012 19:47 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 19:38 [F_]aths wrote:On June 16 2012 19:36 Deckkie wrote:
I wouldnt be surprised if 80-90% of players wants the roach/Colossus/marauder gone. To bad its te 10-20% that works for blizzard.
I think that when the Colossus is gone it would be easier for zerg to figh without roaches, and easier for terran to fight without marauders.
Give the zerg tier 1 Hydra's, with a Tier 2 speed boost and we could possibly have a more awesome game overall. And they can replace the tier 2 hydra with the swarm host. So every race has regular anti-air units before tier 2? Sounds not so awesome to me with that much symmetry. The thing is that at this point every race has a regular anti armour unit at tier 1, and that kind of symmetry isnt very awesome to me. Especially when it feels as if every armour unit is balanced against the tier 1 anti armour unit.
What anti armor unit does the zerg has exactly?
They don't get bonus damage against armor if that is what you mean.
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