On May 05 2012 08:24 knOxStarcraft wrote: It really is scary that a community full of over sensitive adults and retarded trolling teenagers has so much power over the decisions teams make.
Don't get me wrong, a don't agree with what he said or any racist comments but targeting individuals like this is harming the community more than anything they could ever say in game chat. There needs to be better regulation of players and I think there will be in time, but the community needs to stop this lynch mob bullshit right now.
I also find it funny how some people think they're so fucking righteous for shitting on these players for using bad words and disregarding all the other things about gaming that are politically incorrect. I think it's just some silly attention grab personally.
Great post. I agreed with every part of this lol.
Nobody's righteous, nobody's perfect, everyone has a dark side and controversial personality traits that others will most likely not appreciate and apparently some people find it very satisfying to pounce on the people who throw these traits out there to feed their own little ego and to feel like they're actually being a "Good" human being.
On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote: I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner. Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated. In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team. .
Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The entire problem is that you and many others don't see these as two issues that are nowhere near the same level of importance.
"I feel entitled to say whatever I want on my stream, even if it offends some people" -- this is a pretty normal thing for someone to think. It isn't true if you are a politician or someone else who needs to have widespread public acceptance, but for anyone else it's fine.
"I feel entitled to get other people in trouble with their employers if they act in a way that I don't like" -- this is pretty abnormal. This is something said by immature people who feel they should be allowed to control the actions of others. There is a very large difference between the two statements.
As for "what goes around, comes around" - I'm sorry, when did Destiny cost someone his job?
Ironically very recently , he cost himself his job.
On May 05 2012 05:17 Xlancer wrote: And here I thought everyone wanted to help e-sports grow, but it seems that all we really want to do is harass sponsors and make them wish they'd never gotten involved with SC2 in the first place >.< way to go. If you want a certain play off a team please DON'T harass the sponsors, but rather take it up with the team itself. We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's more akin to chopping off a foot before the rot that has set in spreads to the rest of the body.
so you think that it's okay to harass sponsors away from sc2? The proper way to deal with players is through the management of the team.
On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote: I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner. Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated. In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team. .
Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The entire problem is that you and many others don't see these as two issues that are nowhere near the same level of importance.
"I feel entitled to say whatever I want on my stream, even if it offends some people" -- this is a pretty normal thing for someone to think. It isn't true if you are a politician or someone else who needs to have widespread public acceptance, but for anyone else it's fine.
"I feel entitled to get other people in trouble with their employers if they act in a way that I don't like" -- this is pretty abnormal. This is something said by immature people who feel they should be allowed to control the actions of others. There is a very large difference between the two statements.
As for "what goes around, comes around" - I'm sorry, when did Destiny cost someone his job?
Ironically very recently , he cost himself his job.
Lol clever.
But, I don't think that's true. He acted like this before he got his job, very publicly. This behaviour was known and accepted by Quantic, since they picked him up. So I don't think it was his behaviour that cost him his job, since he got said job with said behaviour in the first place.
On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote: I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner. Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated. In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team. .
Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The difference being that one causes no actual harm and the other does.
are you saying that racial slurs dont cause any harm?
Oh words can hurt someones feelings sure, but this isn't direct quantifiable harm. Going after someones money has a direct and quantifiable effect that isn't in any way subjective or relative. Words spoken by a stranger over the internet hold no more power than you attribute to them. I'm not saying that being called a gook didn't hurt the OP's feelings because I have no way of knowing if they did or didn't, but I do know that messing with a person's ability to make money does cause damage. Actual, real, quantifiable damage.
Try an experiment to see which one is worse: call your dog a gook every day for ten days and see what happens, then don't feed it for ten days.
On May 05 2012 08:16 Swords wrote: Regardless of what you think about language or racism or whether or not Destiny deserved this, it was really dumb of him to not apologize and just censor himself.
Because anyone who doesn't compromise their beliefs in exchange for money is an idiot?
Sure, it'd be different if it was a highly lucrative contract worth a ton of money, which he could never match again anywhere else in life, and losing it would mean having a complete lack of income or employment. But that wasn't the case.
On May 05 2012 05:17 Xlancer wrote: And here I thought everyone wanted to help e-sports grow, but it seems that all we really want to do is harass sponsors and make them wish they'd never gotten involved with SC2 in the first place >.< way to go. If you want a certain play off a team please DON'T harass the sponsors, but rather take it up with the team itself. We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's more akin to chopping off a foot before the rot that has set in spreads to the rest of the body.
so you think that it's okay to harass sponsors away from sc2? The proper way to deal with players is through the management of the team.
To be frank with you. If we are the kind of community that supports that sort of disrespectful bigotry then we don't deserve any of the attention that the sponsors have been so kind to give us.
On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote: I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner. Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated. In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team. .
Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The entire problem is that you and many others don't see these as two issues that are nowhere near the same level of importance.
"I feel entitled to say whatever I want on my stream, even if it offends some people" -- this is a pretty normal thing for someone to think. It isn't true if you are a politician or someone else who needs to have widespread public acceptance, but for anyone else it's fine.
"I feel entitled to get other people in trouble with their employers if they act in a way that I don't like" -- this is pretty abnormal. This is something said by immature people who feel they should be allowed to control the actions of others. There is a very large difference between the two statements.
As for "what goes around, comes around" - I'm sorry, when did Destiny cost someone his job?
Exactly, he never hurt anyone unless you want to count someone like the guy who made the original topic, the type of people that get "Offended".
Even if someone got offended and had to spend a few moments crying in a corner, he never did anything remotely close to what this lovely "Community" has done to him now.
On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote: I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner. Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated. In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team. .
Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The difference being that one causes no actual harm and the other does.
are you saying that racial slurs dont cause any harm?
Oh words can hurt someones feelings sure, but this isn't direct quantifiable harm. Going after someones money has a direct and quantifiable effect that isn't in any way subjective or relative. Words spoken by a stranger over the internet hold no more power than you attribute to them. I'm not saying that being called a gook didn't hurt the OP's feelings because I have no way of knowing if they did or didn't, but I do know that messing with a person's ability to make money does cause damage. Actual, real, quantifiable damage.
Try an experiment to see which one is worse: call your dog a gook every day for ten days and see what happens, then don't feed it for ten days.
you said it caused no actual harm, and now you are saying it can hurt your feelings. what exactly are you saying?
oh, and btw, nice example, you know my dog doesnt speak english, right?
On May 05 2012 05:17 Xlancer wrote: And here I thought everyone wanted to help e-sports grow, but it seems that all we really want to do is harass sponsors and make them wish they'd never gotten involved with SC2 in the first place >.< way to go. If you want a certain play off a team please DON'T harass the sponsors, but rather take it up with the team itself. We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's more akin to chopping off a foot before the rot that has set in spreads to the rest of the body.
so you think that it's okay to harass sponsors away from sc2? The proper way to deal with players is through the management of the team.
To be frank with you. If we are the kind of community that supports that sort of disrespectful bigotry then we don't deserve any of the attention that the sponsors have been so kind to give us.
Implying that getting a player fired from his team means that we "Support" him
On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote: I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner. Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated. In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team. .
Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The difference being that one causes no actual harm and the other does.
are you saying that racial slurs dont cause any harm?
Oh words can hurt someones feelings sure, but this isn't direct quantifiable harm. Going after someones money has a direct and quantifiable effect that isn't in any way subjective or relative. Words spoken by a stranger over the internet hold no more power than you attribute to them. I'm not saying that being called a gook didn't hurt the OP's feelings because I have no way of knowing if they did or didn't, but I do know that messing with a person's ability to make money does cause damage. Actual, real, quantifiable damage.
Try an experiment to see which one is worse: call your dog a gook every day for ten days and see what happens, then don't feed it for ten days.
you said it caused no actual harm, and now you are saying it can hurt your feelings. what exactly are you saying?
oh, and btw, nice example, you know my dog doesnt speak english, right?
He also said that words spoken by a stranger (Or by just about anyone, imo) only have as much power as you attribute to them, which is the entire problem here.
On May 05 2012 07:38 sevencck wrote: Has it occurred to anyone that his dismissal from Quantic was less about his usage of the words he used, but more about his subsequent defiant insistence that he had done nothing wrong? Not that I necessarily agree with the "community," but if Destiny had simply apologized and said he was wrong, it might have ended at that. I can't speak for the mods, of course, but it seems like he wouldn't have even been banned from TL at that point.
He claims the apology would have been disingenuous, but all that means is that he's not sorry and that he doesn't believe he did anything worthy of an apology. The totality of Destiny's point apparently was that he has free speech, and therefore he can say what he wants and doesn't need to care what the community thinks about it. Cool. If he's gonna blaze his own trail and thumb his nose at the community, however, then noone is to blame but him if the community turns around and rejects him. Not the community, not TL, not the mods, not Quantic, just him.
He dug his own grave with a smile on his face. Hope he's still smiling when he has to lay down in it.
He wasn't really racist when he used the words and he wouldn't really be sorry if he apologized. What is people's obsession with meaningless words? Oh wait, I know. It's because acting offended makes people feel important and self-righteous and making people apologize makes people feel powerful. It's pathetic.
The words you're referring to are not "meaningless." In fact, they carry with them hundreds of years of oppression, slavery, death, despair, and savagery. It's really quite infantile to try to argue those words are meaningless. Perhaps you've never been on the receiving end of derogatory slurs disparaging you for something you can't change and structuring you as an outsider that doesn't belong. Maybe you have, but based on your comment I doubt it.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The only thing that's relevant is the following: if you're gonna be defiant and do and say what you please because you don't care what the community thinks, fine by me, but it's stupid and hypocritical to then appeal to that same community if they subsequently decide to shun you for your behavior (and yes, Destiny has done just that, read his Reddit post more carefully if you deny this).
If you can say whatever words you want and expect people not to get offended because meaning isn't inherent and that it's the result of interpretation and social conditioning, then by that same nihilism Quantic can fire Destiny and you shouldn't get offended because it doesn't mean anything either.
I agree that if the community wants to shun him and not watch his stream, that is well within their rights and they should do exactly that. He makes pretty much all of his money from streaming, so if he didn't have any viewers he wouldn't have any money. People could punish him that way, and should if that's how they feel.
But do you think it's acceptable that people immediately go rushing to Quantic's sponsors instead of simply not watching his stream? Him not being on Quantic anymore doesn't hurt him financially all that much, but Razer deciding not to sponsor a team or the whole scene would be a huge problem to a ton of people if it happened. Sure, they probably won't over just one event, but if these things keeps happening, it's very plausible they might just say "fuck it, too much drama, not worth it, no more SC2 sponsorship."
Don't get me wrong, I think there are alot of very childish people in the community running around, reporting this and that and the other. In fact, I quite dislike Warden's behavior. Oh, he apparently has no problem instigating and provoking people with poor manners and disparaging comments, but he doesn't like being on the receiving end, and will do what he can to publicly discredit and humiliate the other party in response. Guys who run their mouth and then cry to the ref disgust me. You don't get to antagonize someone and decide when a line has been crossed. As a result, I can understand why Destiny didn't want to apologize, and I can appreciate that he probably isn't a racist. I don't believe people are necessarily racists just because they use the odd racial slur (though it really is a very bad habit).
Regardless, it doesn't take away from the fact that Destiny's defiance to the community was in poor taste, nor does it take away from the fact that Destiny represents a company that operates in a public setting. Me personally? If I liked Destiny, I would still watch his stream. If I was offended by Destiny's comments I may or may not stop watching his stream. In either case, however, I wouldn't try to argue that his behavior is non-offensive or not in poor taste. No, I wouldn't complain to Quantic, but I don't see how that matters. If Quantic projects losses due to this type of behavior then it has no recourse but to distance itself from Destiny. That's pretty standard in the marketplace I'm pretty sure.
when I was a kid racism irl hurt and was really rude since you'd hope people would be normal, these days I wouldn't give a fuck and i would just look at the person like "...?". Forever though I've always thought racism online is w/e because it pales in comparison to the actual thing, that and people online are just dumb to begin with so you expect them to be idiotic and you shouldn't take them seriously
Although I don't like destiny, that is moreso attributed to the fact I think he's an idiot overall. Not because I'm offended by the words he uses. I think people who are saying he's racist / deserves it / whatever are just saying that because they want to cause a ruckus / troll some guy they literally don't give two shits about. Those people are pretty annoying and stupid and far worse than destiny but you can't separate them from the people who are genuinely offended so its an unfortunate situation.
I guess the ends justify the means though, glad destiny is being called out for once ^>^
On May 05 2012 05:17 Xlancer wrote: And here I thought everyone wanted to help e-sports grow, but it seems that all we really want to do is harass sponsors and make them wish they'd never gotten involved with SC2 in the first place >.< way to go. If you want a certain play off a team please DON'T harass the sponsors, but rather take it up with the team itself. We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's more akin to chopping off a foot before the rot that has set in spreads to the rest of the body.
so you think that it's okay to harass sponsors away from sc2? The proper way to deal with players is through the management of the team.
To be frank with you. If we are the kind of community that supports that sort of disrespectful bigotry then we don't deserve any of the attention that the sponsors have been so kind to give us.
Implying that getting a player fired from his team means that we "Support" him
No...I'm implying that by people sitting back and letting that sort of behavior continue you (basically) condone it, and that if that's the kind of community we want to be, then "ESPORTS" would be better off without us.
So many pages.. I read a lot earlier today and a little bit now.. one of the only other things that I agree with so far is that TL all jumped on the bandwagon instantly after this thread. But, I don't understand what all these people in the thread are clinging onto.. It's not about him being racist and it's not about "white knights" persecuting him for using words on his own stream that are protected by free speech.. give.. me.. a break.
It doesn't even MATTER that it was a racial slur.. which it WAS.. these defamatory comments are directed in a hostile and offensive way. Whether he was raging or not.. you are representing a PROFESSIONAL eSPORTS TEAM for crying out loud.. thousands of viewers, god only knows what kind of people are watching and what their ages.. not only that, but it simply pollutes the game. The big kicker is still coming.. it's COMPLETELY avoidable.. christ almighty.. how EASY would it be just to hold your tongue, project a professional demeanour and type.. wait for it.. two letters only.. GG. I simply cannot, for the life of me, understand how people are defending this kind of behaviour. Even if he wasn't on a progaming team.. justing having his stream featured on TL should be an honour and enough to keep a positive mental attitude while on air.
..trying to think of a clever way to wrap this up.. but.. I have no clue.. just so confused.
On May 05 2012 07:53 Doodsmack wrote: Still wondering why all the white knights weren't so outraged before the Warden thread. You already knew Destiny was slinging slurs around on his stream. Why didn't you care before Warden posted a screenshot? Answer: because you're jumping on a bandwagon. People are so eager to crucify someone who's been caught doing something wrong. Guess it helps to make up for their own wrongdoings.
Honestly, reading through reddit after this last witchhunt, I was ready to leave SC2. But comming on TL and reading comments like these make my day. All the drama and the witchhunts need to stop. It's not productive at all.
Not productive? People who wanted Destiny gone made it happen and now he'll likely never represent an e-sports organization again. He is no longer someone who can represent "pro gamers" or professional starcraft 2 players. I'd say mission complete, job well done.
1) Destiny is not gone. Most of his income came from streaming and I really doubt this will hurt those numbers much at all 2) He never wanted to represent "esports" or pro-gamers 3) This witch hunt literally accomplished nothing other than possibly pissing off some sponsors which doesn't even effect Destiny. 4) Destiny probably sees this as a positive thing (other than his 30 day suspension from the TL featured stream list)
And in the end, once again, the hundred + page drama threads accomplish absolutely nothing at all. Well done fellas.
1. Destiny not being a sponsored player is good enough. He won't be flown to MLG or something
2. Doesn't matter if he wanted to, as a sponsored player by a huge team, he was.
3. I'm sure sponsors are happy to know that he's not representing them that's why this happened, remember?
4. Positive to have a lot less advertising and never be flown to an event again? Does not compute.
I see you're still missing the point. He makes money by streaming, not by winning events. His avg viewer count has also increased lately (due to the advertising of these threads). There's not such thing as bad publicity and his name has been at the top of SC2 general for a few days now.
Then that's great. I don't wish him poorly, I just didn't want him in a position where he is representing e-sports. By being on sponsored team shared by Naniwa and SaSe, he was representing e-sports. I hope he makes boat loads of money and is able to support his son. I don't hate the guy, I just didn't like him bringing such an unprofessional image to something I care about. Sounds like a great deal all around.
On May 05 2012 08:39 askTeivospy wrote: when I was a kid racism irl hurt and was really rude since you'd hope people would be normal, these days I wouldn't give a fuck and i would just look at the person like "...?". Forever though I've always thought racism online is w/e because it pales in comparison to the actual thing, that and people online are just dumb to begin with so you expect them to be idiotic and you shouldn't take them seriously
Although I don't like destiny, that is moreso attributed to the fact I think he's an idiot overall. Not because I'm offended by the words he uses. I think people who are saying he's racist / deserves it / whatever are just saying that because they want to cause a ruckus / troll some guy they literally don't give two shits about. Those people are pretty annoying and stupid and far worse than destiny but you can't separate them from the people who are genuinely offended so its an unfortunate situation.
I guess the ends justify the means though, glad destiny is being called out for once ^>^
Ironically, by calling Destiny an idiot, you just became a hypocrit. Idiot is a term to medically describe an individual with an IQ of 1-25. That's a more specific way to call someone retarded and is disrespectful and offensive to all the people who actually are retarded or know someone who is retarded. You (and pretty much everyone else in this thread) are guilty of the same thing you are accusing Destiny of, but still feel ok wrapped in your double standard.
On May 05 2012 05:17 Xlancer wrote: And here I thought everyone wanted to help e-sports grow, but it seems that all we really want to do is harass sponsors and make them wish they'd never gotten involved with SC2 in the first place >.< way to go. If you want a certain play off a team please DON'T harass the sponsors, but rather take it up with the team itself. We need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's more akin to chopping off a foot before the rot that has set in spreads to the rest of the body.
so you think that it's okay to harass sponsors away from sc2? The proper way to deal with players is through the management of the team.
To be frank with you. If we are the kind of community that supports that sort of disrespectful bigotry then we don't deserve any of the attention that the sponsors have been so kind to give us.
Implying that getting a player fired from his team means that we "Support" him
No...I'm implying that by people sitting back and letting that sort of behavior continue you support it, and that if that's the kind of community we want to be, then "ESPORTS" would be better off without us.
Well than maybe you should go back and read the post you responded to, he said the proper way to handle issues like these is through team management and he is absolutely right, IncontroL also mentioned in the original thread that actually contacting sponsors is something that should not be happening and that teams should be contacted if there is a problem with one of their players, this is not sitting back and supporting behaviour, this is weeding out the problems, going for the sponsors is like torching the entire garden.
EPT
that's why this happened, remember?
