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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 05 2012 08:01 Frunkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:38 sevencck wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone that his dismissal from Quantic was less about his usage of the words he used, but more about his subsequent defiant insistence that he had done nothing wrong? Not that I necessarily agree with the "community," but if Destiny had simply apologized and said he was wrong, it might have ended at that. I can't speak for the mods, of course, but it seems like he wouldn't have even been banned from TL at that point.
He claims the apology would have been disingenuous, but all that means is that he's not sorry and that he doesn't believe he did anything worthy of an apology. The totality of Destiny's point apparently was that he has free speech, and therefore he can say what he wants and doesn't need to care what the community thinks about it. Cool. If he's gonna blaze his own trail and thumb his nose at the community, however, then noone is to blame but him if the community turns around and rejects him. Not the community, not TL, not the mods, not Quantic, just him.
He dug his own grave with a smile on his face. Hope he's still smiling when he has to lay down in it. He wasn't really racist when he used the words and he wouldn't really be sorry if he apologized. What is people's obsession with meaningless words? Oh wait, I know. It's because acting offended makes people feel important and self-righteous and making people apologize makes people feel powerful. It's pathetic.
The words you're referring to are not "meaningless." In fact, they carry with them hundreds of years of oppression, slavery, death, despair, and savagery. It's really quite infantile to try to argue those words are meaningless. Perhaps you've never been on the receiving end of derogatory slurs disparaging you for something you can't change and structuring you as an outsider that doesn't belong. Maybe you have, but based on your comment I doubt it.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The only thing that's relevant is the following: if you're gonna be defiant and do and say what you please because you "don't care" what the community thinks, fine by me, but it's infantile and hypocritical to then appeal to that same community if they subsequently decide to shun you for your behavior (and yes, Destiny has done just that, read his Reddit post more carefully if you deny this).
If you can say whatever words you want and expect people not to get offended because meaning isn't inherent and that it's the result of interpretation and social conditioning, then by that same nihilism Quantic can fire Destiny and you shouldn't get offended because it doesn't mean anything either.
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On May 05 2012 08:18 Harbinger631 wrote:
Out of curiosity, is there anyone who's had a more successful charity drive than Destiny. He and Sheth pulled in over $30,000 for Doctors Without Borders in 24 hours, the vast majority of that coming from Destiny. That saved lives! Has any SC2 member done better?
isnt there that athene charity?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=331129
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On May 05 2012 08:04 below66 wrote:LOL, I FUCKS WITH DEBO, HE AIGHT. User was warned for this post
Why was he warned? 
It's basically another way of saying "Hahaha, Debo is amazing. He's cool."
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On May 05 2012 08:20 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:04 below66 wrote:LOL, I FUCKS WITH DEBO, HE AIGHT. User was warned for this post Why was he warned? It's basically another way of saying "Hahaha, Debo is amazing. He's cool."
nobody likes a screamer, except in bed.
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On May 04 2012 18:13 REFLEX_500 wrote:
Star craft 2 and gaming in general, over the last couple of years have blown up to a size that no one could have ever anticipated. Gaming is at a point where it is a profession rather than a hobby. People are gaming full time, supporting themselves, sometimes their families and even paying for houses (EG). A select few of us have built our skills to a point where we can do this. The "game" has moved from the comfort of our houses, into stadiums, into the public. We used to be able to do and say whatever we wanted, whenever we wanted. However in a professional world, there should be no place for anything other than professionalism. You'd never walk into an office (attorney, doctor, school) and be greeted with any sort of "bad language" or unprofessional gestures. In general you’d be greeted with a hand shake, anything else and we’d give a strange look, wouldn’t we? The gaming hobby is quickly becoming the professional scene that it should be, and we must grow with it. (Hopefully it doesn’t come to the point where we would need to wear a minimum of button down shirts and slacks to MLG.)
In order to grow with the scene, the attitudes, vocabulary and posture that we all have towards each other in and out of the gaming world should grow in a professional way. To help esports grow we must also grow. If we do not, eventually esports will crumble. The reason that esports is in existence is largely due to people outside esports (sponsors). They invest in esports for one reason, to make money. However they will not be associated with “children” who cannot control themselves.
We must learn to control ourselves. We must grow. Otherwise the professional scene that we seek will never be.
REFLEX_500
(Note: Obviously if you're a casual gamer after your work day, I do realize that you're probably going to rage and BM [blow off steam]. It makes perfect sense)
I agree 100% you the title Professional gamers automatically means you need to have a professional attitude heh
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On May 04 2012 15:56 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 15:53 Primadog wrote:
I give it another month until TL/reddit decide their next lynch target and mess with the sponsors again. The mob has tested power and will abuse it.
For those that actually wrote to sponsors for this and that Orb thing, did you ever wrote anything to the sponsors outside of these lynch campaigns? Why not? Wouldn't positive thank you emails contribute far more than throwing one of us under the bus? I have only written positive things to sponsors. I should have also written to them when Destiny was getting lynched. In the future I will be consistent and not only praise sponsors for supporting SC2 but also lynch pro players that publicly throw around racial slurs the way Destiny did.
You will "lynch" people for throwing around racial slurs? You know that word's history, right?
I agree with holding players accountable, but there has to be a better word. That sentence is so asinine it hurts.
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On May 05 2012 08:20 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:01 Frunkis wrote:On May 05 2012 07:38 sevencck wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone that his dismissal from Quantic was less about his usage of the words he used, but more about his subsequent defiant insistence that he had done nothing wrong? Not that I necessarily agree with the "community," but if Destiny had simply apologized and said he was wrong, it might have ended at that. I can't speak for the mods, of course, but it seems like he wouldn't have even been banned from TL at that point.
He claims the apology would have been disingenuous, but all that means is that he's not sorry and that he doesn't believe he did anything worthy of an apology. The totality of Destiny's point apparently was that he has free speech, and therefore he can say what he wants and doesn't need to care what the community thinks about it. Cool. If he's gonna blaze his own trail and thumb his nose at the community, however, then noone is to blame but him if the community turns around and rejects him. Not the community, not TL, not the mods, not Quantic, just him.
He dug his own grave with a smile on his face. Hope he's still smiling when he has to lay down in it. He wasn't really racist when he used the words and he wouldn't really be sorry if he apologized. What is people's obsession with meaningless words? Oh wait, I know. It's because acting offended makes people feel important and self-righteous and making people apologize makes people feel powerful. It's pathetic. The words you're referring to are not "meaningless." In fact, they carry with them hundreds of years of oppression, slavery, death, despair, and savagery. It's really quite infantile to try to argue those words are meaningless. Perhaps you've never been on the receiving end of derogatory slurs disparaging you for something you can't change and structuring you as an outsider that doesn't belong. Maybe you have, but based on your comment I doubt it. Anyway, it doesn't matter. The only thing that's relevant is the following: if you're gonna be defiant and do and say what you please because you don't care what the community thinks, fine by me, but it's stupid and hypocritical to then appeal to that same community if they subsequently decide to shun you for your behavior (and yes, Destiny has done just that, read his Reddit post more carefully if you deny this). If you can say whatever words you want and expect people not to get offended because meaning isn't inherent and that it's the result of interpretation and social conditioning, then by that same nihilism Quantic can fire Destiny and you shouldn't get offended because it doesn't mean anything either.
I agree that if the community wants to shun him and not watch his stream, that is well within their rights and they should do exactly that. He makes pretty much all of his money from streaming, so if he didn't have any viewers he wouldn't have any money. People could punish him that way, and should if that's how they feel.
But do you think it's acceptable that people immediately go rushing to Quantic's sponsors instead of simply not watching his stream? Him not being on Quantic anymore doesn't hurt him financially all that much, but Razer deciding not to sponsor a team or the whole scene would be a huge problem to a ton of people if it happened. Sure, they probably won't over just one event, but if these things keeps happening, it's very plausible they might just say "fuck it, too much drama, not worth it, no more SC2 sponsorship."
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On May 05 2012 08:22 robopork wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 15:56 papaz wrote:On May 04 2012 15:53 Primadog wrote:
I give it another month until TL/reddit decide their next lynch target and mess with the sponsors again. The mob has tested power and will abuse it.
For those that actually wrote to sponsors for this and that Orb thing, did you ever wrote anything to the sponsors outside of these lynch campaigns? Why not? Wouldn't positive thank you emails contribute far more than throwing one of us under the bus? I have only written positive things to sponsors. I should have also written to them when Destiny was getting lynched. In the future I will be consistent and not only praise sponsors for supporting SC2 but also lynch pro players that publicly throw around racial slurs the way Destiny did. You will "lynch" people for throwing around racial slurs? You know that word's history, right? I agree with holding players accountable, but there has to be a better word. That sentence is so asinine it hurts.
Words (or the meaning of words) don't seem to be that sides strong suit.
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It really is scary that a community full of over sensitive adults and retarded trolling teenagers has so much power over the decisions teams make.
Don't get me wrong, a don't agree with what he said or any racist comments but targeting individuals like this is harming the community more than anything they could ever say in game chat. There needs to be better regulation of players and I think there will be in time, but the community needs to stop this lynch mob bullshit right now.
I also find it funny how some people think they're so fucking righteous for shitting on these players for using bad words and disregarding all the other things about gaming that are politically incorrect. I think it's just some silly attention grab personally.
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On May 05 2012 08:14 Fliparoni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote:
I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner.
Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated.
In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team.
. Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The difference being that one causes no actual harm and the other does.
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On May 05 2012 08:20 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:04 below66 wrote:LOL, I FUCKS WITH DEBO, HE AIGHT. User was warned for this post Why was he warned? It's basically another way of saying "Hahaha, Debo is amazing. He's cool."
It is an amazingly appropriate video, actually.
Debo for president.
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On May 05 2012 08:18 Strabismus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:09 Fliparoni wrote:On May 05 2012 07:53 Zergmeister wrote:On May 05 2012 07:52 Strabismus wrote:On May 05 2012 07:42 Torche wrote:On May 04 2012 16:01 nGBeast wrote:
This is a fucking disgrace, he's getting punished because the white knight TL/Reddit idiots decided he's not allowed to use word/words protected by his free speech. Before anyone replies remember that you don't have to like what people say, but you have no right telling them they can't say it. Grow a fucking backbone. That's whats wrong with you people, you assume your given the right to take away someones free speech because you think a set of words are "hurtful". This is what wrong with society today, you think your entitled to this bullshit.
Also if Warden reads this message, how about you tell everyone you were calling people retards at the St Louis LAN back when you were on xi. I bet people with disabilities wouldn't like that either, kettle meet pot.
This. This. Holy shit a million times this. I couldn't have worded it better myself. Except StarCraft is Destiny's profession and a source of income. If I went round my place of work blurting out racial slurs and insults I would be fired instantly. Not only should he have not acted like that out of human decency, he is also acting like that in an environment where there should be at least some degree of professionalism. On top of all this, he still adamantly believes that acting like a dick in the workplace and keeping your job is a god given right. People waffling on about how cutting a man's source of income is far worse than misconduct in the workplace are overlooking the fact that Destiny did this to himself and he fully deserves the repercussions. I can do that at my office. Dunno what kind of spineless place you work at. The goverment? Really? So if your boss or a co-worker is a black or asian guy, you can go up to them and say whats up nigger or whats up gook without any consequence? Or how about calling someone a jew bag mother fucker, Or yo bitch ass motherfucker, how's it going? I have to ask, what kind of unprofessional place do you work at? Edit: seeing as how you're from Denmark, things might be different than in the States but still.. I'm guessing he's self employed or something. No professional company in any country allows for such crap. As for all these "the fans being entitled" posts. You do realise this is all circular logic right? Telling people they should shut up for being entitled is basically doing the same thing they are doing but contradicting yourself.
I work for Aliant in Nova Scotia, and my co-worker (guy who is an IT professional like myself) is black... I have bantered the term "nigger" to him more times then I can count, am I racist? I don't see him filing a complaint, it's because its playful banter... everyone is so "I HAVE TO CHANGE THE COMMUNITY" that they put teams futures at stake by attacking sponsors, and players/casters life in gaming at risk because of a few terms... It's almost like a fucking disease, god I'm high masters in 2 months I could get GM I think and perhaps play in playhems... GOD FORBID someone notices I'm better and finds an old replay where I got really upset and said nigger/jew or fagget... It's ludicrious, absolutely insane. And most of the terms being thrown around are "fagget" yet I don't see anyone running to the "homophobic train" and getting sponsors on that shit, hell I saw idra say racial terms back near beta, I wasn't running to the hills yelling "THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING" ... Time to grow up, if he's lynching black people, lets report him... Not if he's laddering... Insane.
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On May 05 2012 08:24 Bulldog654 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:14 Fliparoni wrote:On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote:
I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner.
Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated.
In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team.
. Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that. The difference being that one causes no actual harm and the other does.
I agree, people putting a stop to this is good. Only harm can come from allowing such juvenality to continue.
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On May 05 2012 08:24 Bulldog654 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:14 Fliparoni wrote:On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote:
I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner.
Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated.
In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team.
. Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that. The difference being that one causes no actual harm and the other does.
are you saying that racial slurs dont cause any harm?
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On May 05 2012 08:24 knOxStarcraft wrote:
It really is scary that a community full of over sensitive adults and retarded trolling teenagers has so much power over the decisions teams make.
Don't get me wrong, a don't agree with what he said or any racist comments but targeting individuals like this is harming the community more than anything they could ever say in game chat. There needs to be better regulation of players and I think there will be in time, but the community needs to stop this lynch mob bullshit right now.
I also find it funny how some people think they're so fucking righteous for shitting on these players for using bad words and disregarding all the other things about gaming that are politically incorrect. I think it's just some silly attention grab personally.
Great post. I agreed with every part of this lol.
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On May 05 2012 08:25 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:24 Bulldog654 wrote:On May 05 2012 08:14 Fliparoni wrote:On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote:
I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner.
Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated.
In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team.
. Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that. The difference being that one causes no actual harm and the other does. are you saying that racial slurs dont cause any harm?
YESSSSSSSSSSSS A WARNING AND not that fucking thread that thread was terrible. Just close this its a headache.
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hehe! 
I remember the first time i heard someone use the expression "Haters are gonna hate"
and it seemed to me (still does i guess) to be one of the dumbest things you can possibly say in an argument...
If you wan't to talk about envy, talk about envy. Envy definitely exists, so does group psychology and a multitude of other explanations/motivations in human behavior. But if you find yourself "hated" to a large degree, i don't think it is healthy for your natural response to be that it is about the people hating you. That it is a 'quality' in them that makes you hated. In fact isn't that a weird approach to any social interaction?
Destiny has morals. it is even clear when he elaborates on it, that he has given it considerable thought, as opposed to just adopting a moral framework from someone else. I only say this because i don't think there is any fruitful discussion to be had in whether Destiny is one type of person or the other, rather, the meaningful discussion to be had is about behavior.
I think people miss this a lot!
Personally, i don't know if getting too riled up on either side of the discussion, is good for anyone. Whether that means very negative posting, or messaging sponsors, or whatever... But is it really the end of the world if either of those happened?
About free speech, when have we ever had it? it has never been acceptable to say anything you wan't. for the simple reason that speech is behavior too. Verbal expression can hurt. It has never been free, and it could it ever be? as long as we are a structured civilization, we are going to have to require eachother to act within boundaries.
oh dear, i write walls of text.. Destiny will be fine, so will we all <3 good evening
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I used to watch a lot of Destiny but the stuff mentioned in this thread annoyed me so I stopped watching as much. I stilI tune in from time to time and enjoy the steam when I do. I understand Quantics situation but not the community. If it really offended someone should have said something before he was even on ROOT not because it's the cool thing to do lately...tldr its a shame this had to happen. Both sides need to rethink how they effect the community.
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I love all the people who are like "im gonna quit the sc2 scene because its not acceptable to say chink/gook/spick/nigger/faggot around here!" . I say good gtfo!
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On May 05 2012 08:14 Fliparoni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:11 NoctemSC wrote:
I'm going to try to get my point across in a civil manner.
Destiny has never been a favorite player of mine, neither has he been one I've hated.
In fact, Destiny has given me many laughs on the few times that I've tuned into his stream. E-sports, at least in starcraft 2 is shifting, whether for better or worse I can not guess at, yet.
My main problem with this is the fact that certain community members feel like they are entitled to decide how someone can or can not talk. If you don't like how someone presents themselves, that's your right, but do you really feel the need to take it to this level? Not only are you endangering a players career, a player that asks nothing from you except that you watch his games but even worse, you're endangering an entire team.
. Just as Destiny feels like he's entitled to use whatever language he likes against anyone he likes, there are other people who feel entitled to report said language to his team and sponsors. What goes around comes around. Nothing too complicated about that.
The entire problem is that you and many others don't see these as two issues that are nowhere near the same level of importance.
"I feel entitled to say whatever I want on my stream, even if it offends some people" -- this is a pretty normal thing for someone to think. It isn't true if you are a politician or someone else who needs to have widespread public acceptance, but for anyone else it's fine.
"I feel entitled to get other people in trouble with their employers if they act in a way that I don't like" -- this is pretty abnormal. This is something said by immature people who feel they should be allowed to control the actions of others. There is a very large difference between the two statements.
As for "what goes around, comes around" - I'm sorry, when did Destiny cost someone his job?
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EPT
