This kind of reminds me of that caster vs the player (dragon?) thing that got the caster fired.
I don't really see how anyone can be surprised that when someone actively goads or insults his audience (the dragon case) or another user (Destiny's case) that that won't somehow elicit a negative reaction. Insisting that people shouldn't be insulted by your insults is kind of weird, regardles of what the actual words you use to insult people are. The rationalisations come across as the type that bullies might make to themselves about their bullying.
But the thing that really links the two incidents for me is the disregard shown by both parties to the complaints (whether justified or not) of the audience and users, and the direct consequences of that stubbornness. When the audience feel they have no power to directly resolve the situation via the person they have an issue with (because of their disregard) and furthermore are being actively mocked for their attempts at doing so, well they have only two options: Leave it alone, or go higher up.
I know a lot of comments on this thread think that `leave it alone' i.e. ignore them and get on with life would have been the better option, but I think it's incredibly difficult to imagine what it's like to be on the receiving end of this type of situation without having experienced it. The situation is essentially a `power game' being played by the person in power (caster and entertainer) over a person who essentially has zero power (the person(s) being insulted without recourse).
For one thing I think this is really a very unhealthy type of behaviour to display (not just for a `representative' of the community), and acceptance of this type of behaviour can lead down some pretty awful paths. For another it's an experience that you never want to go through again and more; that you never want anyone else to go through either.
To reiterate: it's not just the insult, but the lack of recourse and importantly - the manner of goading the powerless party over their lack of power, that is the stick in the hornets nest. Of course in Destiny's case the goading wasn't direct, but rather indirect through his history and the reputation he has garnered for himself with regards to these situations.
For these reasons I can see why what happened happened. Regardless I'm sad for Destiny that he got burned, because it genuinely seems to me like he just doesn't understand the situation (from his reply at least, and from what I can garner of his character from appearances on sotg), and is too caught up in the semantics argument to see it clearly.
Well, in my opinion at least. K.
PS. Contacting sponsors, who have nothing to do with man-management, seems odd, but I suppose that since Quantic took on Destiny knowing full well his tendencies, that that automatically coloured people's opinions of them to the point where they took the next step up, perhaps a little too fast.
PPS. Hmm, reading back over this I feel that maybe the comparison with the Dragon scenario may be slightly unjust, but I'm going to leave it there regardless, because it feels to me like it helps to illustrate the point.
Still wondering why all the white knights weren't so outraged before the Warden thread. You already knew Destiny was slinging slurs around on his stream. Why didn't you care before Warden posted a screenshot? Answer: because you're jumping on a bandwagon. People are so eager to crucify someone who's been caught doing something wrong. Guess it helps to make up for their own wrongdoings.
On May 04 2012 16:01 nGBeast wrote: This is a fucking disgrace, he's getting punished because the white knight TL/Reddit idiots decided he's not allowed to use word/words protected by his free speech. Before anyone replies remember that you don't have to like what people say, but you have no right telling them they can't say it. Grow a fucking backbone. That's whats wrong with you people, you assume your given the right to take away someones free speech because you think a set of words are "hurtful". This is what wrong with society today, you think your entitled to this bullshit.
Also if Warden reads this message, how about you tell everyone you were calling people retards at the St Louis LAN back when you were on xi. I bet people with disabilities wouldn't like that either, kettle meet pot.
This. This. Holy shit a million times this. I couldn't have worded it better myself.
Except StarCraft is Destiny's profession and a source of income. If I went round my place of work blurting out racial slurs and insults I would be fired instantly. Not only should he have not acted like that out of human decency, he is also acting like that in an environment where there should be at least some degree of professionalism. On top of all this, he still adamantly believes that acting like a dick in the workplace and keeping your job is a god given right.
People waffling on about how cutting a man's source of income is far worse than misconduct in the workplace are overlooking the fact that Destiny did this to himself and he fully deserves the repercussions.
I can do that at my office. Dunno what kind of spineless place you work at. The goverment?
On May 05 2012 07:38 sevencck wrote: Has it occurred to anyone that his dismissal from Quantic was less about his usage of the words he used, but more about his subsequent defiant insistence that he had done nothing wrong? Not that I necessarily agree with the "community," but if Destiny had simply apologized and said he was wrong, it might have ended at that. I can't speak for the mods, of course, but it seems like he wouldn't have even been banned from TL at that point.
He claims the apology would have been disingenuous, but all that means is that he's not sorry. The totality of Destiny's point apparently was that he has free speech, and therefore he can say what he wants and doesn't need to care what the community thinks about it. Cool. If he's gonna blaze his own trail and thumb his nose at the community, however, then noone is to blame but him if the community turns around and rejects him. Not the community, not TL, not the mods, not Quantic, just him.
He dug his own grave with a smile on his face. Hope he's still smiling when he has to lay down in it.
The problem here is that he DID nothing wrong. This "community" on the other hand... This is sick. You guys can have this site for yourself from now on. I'm signing out. I simply can't stay on a side that refuses to accept anything else than their own belives, and where moderators are bashing everyone of that very oppenion.
The last thing i want to say is: Do not confuse yourself for the sc2 community. You are the TeamLiquid community, the most selfish and closedminded community out there. Hell, even KKK are open to debate about their belives, hence they are not really racists anymore.
The KKK aren't really racists anymore???????????????????????????????????????????
115 pages in one day over this??? are you forrreallllllllllllllllll???
I'm a cuban, us cubans and latin/hispanic families are known to be dramatic, you can tell just by watching our shitty 'Novellas' that we are gossipy and love drama and being in other peoples business, very out-spoken and loud bunch. But even this trumps it, Starcraft community is full of it.
Also...
"This hallmark-card notion of "things can only hurt you if you let them" is ludicrous and everyone here has first hand evidence of that. We've all been irrationally mad before. We all have emotional buttons that someone, somewhere, could push and hurt us. Some of those buttons are personal and hidden deep inside, but some of them are worn on our sleeves, or even deeper, in our skin. It's clear that some people in this thread view that very real hurt as just collateral damage in their self-righteous war on the windmills of political correctness."
VERY WELL SAID, I am all for free speech, but online, you can't get punched in your face for being a prick, and people can't read sarcasm as good or can't really see the way you are delivering the words. There's no accountability in these situations, therefore it shouldn't be tolerated. I'm sure a player like destiny in korea would be quickly ostracized.
On May 05 2012 07:53 Doodsmack wrote: Still wondering why all the white knights weren't so outraged before the Warden thread. You already knew Destiny was slinging slurs around on his stream. Why didn't you care before Warden posted a screenshot? Answer: because you're jumping on a bandwagon. People are so eager to crucify someone who's been caught doing something wrong. Guess it helps to make up for their own wrongdoings.
This was a good catalyst for him to finally be gone. A lot of people hated the image he gave SC2, but this was the first opportunity for him to actually go.
On May 05 2012 07:34 SuperYo1000 wrote: so he says insulting things and refuses to apologize about it? He has got a lot of growing up to do.
Perhaps if the person that he directed his outburst at were to be the bigger man and apologize to Destiny first, Destiny might feel bad and apologize too, who knows maybe they could be friends afterwards.
apologize for playing that race, or apologizing for all-inning him? or apologize for being korean?
All-ins are a part of the game and it sucks when you're on the receiving end, but the offensive gg was pretty rude. I can't see how it makes sense to be rude to someone and then tattle on him when he's rude back.
On May 04 2012 15:56 sc14s wrote: finally, idk why they would keep such a mediocre player who started so much drama on their roster.. at least their other "problem" players post results (i.e naniwa) I don't hate the guy but he certainly grated on me and overall didn't represent the community all that well so.. really i think this is for the best.
Destiny was the best reprentation of the starcraft comunity.
there sure are a lot of people who feel strongly for Destiny you're aware this is matter of opinion? and that is just yours? it feels weird to even have to say it but he doesn't represent me, nor would i like him to.
On May 05 2012 07:53 Doodsmack wrote: Still wondering why all the white knights weren't so outraged before the Warden thread. You already knew Destiny was slinging slurs around on his stream. Why didn't you care before Warden posted a screenshot? Answer: because you're jumping on a bandwagon. People are so eager to crucify someone who's been caught doing something wrong. Guess it helps to make up for their own wrongdoings.
Honestly, reading through reddit after this last witchhunt, I was ready to leave SC2. But comming on TL and reading comments like these make my day. All the drama and the witchhunts need to stop. It's not productive at all.
Poll: Is offensive/racial language a teamkick / TL-ban-worthy offense?
It doesn't matter, it's not a big deal, people should just get over it and stop watching his strea (64)
43%
Yes. Get that out of my esports. It is a blight to the professionalism of the scene. (51)
34%
Only if he refuses to apologize and refrain from it in the future. (Warning) (18)
12%
Language is what you make it. I should be able to say anything without you getting offended. (14)
9%
Only if sponsors are on the line. Otherwise it doesn't matter. (2)
1%
149 total votes
Your vote: Is offensive/racial language a teamkick / TL-ban-worthy offense?
(Vote): Yes. Get that out of my esports. It is a blight to the professionalism of the scene. (Vote): Only if sponsors are on the line. Otherwise it doesn't matter. (Vote): Only if he refuses to apologize and refrain from it in the future. (Warning) (Vote): It doesn't matter, it's not a big deal, people should just get over it and stop watching his strea (Vote): Language is what you make it. I should be able to say anything without you getting offended.
what is offensive/racial language?
Cunt, Nigger, Kike, Faggot, etc.
I don't really see how cunt is offensive, and I've never personally heard the word Kike ever.
Some feminists would tell you that cunt is the most offensive word you can use. Kike is a racist slur for asians? Idk, I never really see it used.
Normally, I wouldn't just post this, but I have nothing to really add to this thread that hasn't been said a hundred times and there really isn't all that much meaningful discussion going on. Its mostly hit and run posting that has been going in circles for awhile.
Poll: Is offensive/racial language a teamkick / TL-ban-worthy offense?
It doesn't matter, it's not a big deal, people should just get over it and stop watching his strea (64)
43%
Yes. Get that out of my esports. It is a blight to the professionalism of the scene. (51)
34%
Only if he refuses to apologize and refrain from it in the future. (Warning) (18)
12%
Language is what you make it. I should be able to say anything without you getting offended. (14)
9%
Only if sponsors are on the line. Otherwise it doesn't matter. (2)
1%
149 total votes
Your vote: Is offensive/racial language a teamkick / TL-ban-worthy offense?
(Vote): Yes. Get that out of my esports. It is a blight to the professionalism of the scene. (Vote): Only if sponsors are on the line. Otherwise it doesn't matter. (Vote): Only if he refuses to apologize and refrain from it in the future. (Warning) (Vote): It doesn't matter, it's not a big deal, people should just get over it and stop watching his strea (Vote): Language is what you make it. I should be able to say anything without you getting offended.
what is offensive/racial language?
Cunt, Nigger, Kike, Faggot, etc.
I don't really see how cunt is offensive, and I've never personally heard the word Kike ever.
Some feminists would tell you that cunt is the most offensive word you can use. Kike is a racist slur for asians? Idk, I never really see it used.
Bah, good to know, thanks. I didn't care enough to look it up, but I guess I should probably be more informed if I'm going to attempt to inform other people XD
On May 05 2012 07:38 sevencck wrote: Has it occurred to anyone that his dismissal from Quantic was less about his usage of the words he used, but more about his subsequent defiant insistence that he had done nothing wrong? Not that I necessarily agree with the "community," but if Destiny had simply apologized and said he was wrong, it might have ended at that. I can't speak for the mods, of course, but it seems like he wouldn't have even been banned from TL at that point.
He claims the apology would have been disingenuous, but all that means is that he's not sorry and that he doesn't believe he did anything worthy of an apology. The totality of Destiny's point apparently was that he has free speech, and therefore he can say what he wants and doesn't need to care what the community thinks about it. Cool. If he's gonna blaze his own trail and thumb his nose at the community, however, then noone is to blame but him if the community turns around and rejects him. Not the community, not TL, not the mods, not Quantic, just him.
He dug his own grave with a smile on his face. Hope he's still smiling when he has to lay down in it.
He wasn't really racist when he used the words and he wouldn't really be sorry if he apologized. What is people's obsession with meaningless words? Oh wait, I know. It's because acting offended makes people feel important and self-righteous and making people apologize makes people feel powerful. It's pathetic.
He should have gotten a warning and suspension from TL, if you say racist slurs in football to another player you can get an suspension i have never seen a total ban from a club or something like that, and fifa/uefa are very hard on racism. I defended him because his stream was the most fun to watch for some time anyways i don't know hats gonna happen now with it. This community sucks you guys convince me. No fun threads mods closing threads wtf...
On May 05 2012 07:53 Doodsmack wrote: Still wondering why all the white knights weren't so outraged before the Warden thread. You already knew Destiny was slinging slurs around on his stream. Why didn't you care before Warden posted a screenshot? Answer: because you're jumping on a bandwagon. People are so eager to crucify someone who's been caught doing something wrong. Guess it helps to make up for their own wrongdoings.
Honestly, reading through reddit after this last witchhunt, I was ready to leave SC2. But comming on TL and reading comments like these make my day. All the drama and the witchhunts need to stop. It's not productive at all.
Not productive? People who wanted Destiny gone made it happen and now he'll likely never represent an e-sports organization again. He is no longer someone who can represent "pro gamers" or professional starcraft 2 players. I'd say mission complete, job well done.
On May 05 2012 07:58 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Destiny has always been a solo act, even when he was on a team; so this seems suiting, and a wise move on destiny's part.
On May 05 2012 08:03 ReaperCo wrote: He should have gotten a warning and suspension from TL, if you say racist slurs in football to another player you can get an suspension i have never seen a total ban from a club or something like that, and fifa/uefa are very hard on racism. I defended him because his stream was the most fun to watch for some time anyways i don't know hats gonna happen now with it. This community sucks you guys convince me. No fun threads mods closing threads wtf...
He did, he got banned from TL for 30 days and had his steam unlisted for the same period. However, it was not because of his language or anything else he did on his stream, but rather because he was super disrespectful to the mods and a bunch of other people when he was defending himself in the first thread. No need to hate on the mods
EPT
you're aware this is matter of opinion? and that is just yours? it feels weird to even have to say it but he doesn't represent me, nor would i like him to.
