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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
A prompt release of all replays from every qualifier as soon as the event finishes. Pros might not like it, but it'll be a lot better for the fans and it'll make life just a little more difficult for the Koreans (since the foreigners will have a bit more ammo under their belts - although this will work both ways). | ||
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YodaGoneMad
United States58 Posts
Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything. For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching? Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time. | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On April 11 2012 01:56 YodaGoneMad wrote: Funny I brought this up like a year ago when the Korean dominance started in MLG. Everyone called me racist and stupid and told me to GTFO. Here we are, a year later, foreigners have been losing more and more and without the money to power the scene they just get worse and worse. Western players are quitting or not attending tournaments anymore while more and more Koreans take over everything. For an average western viewer like me watching a tournament with all Koreans is not entertaining, and I won't bother. I don't care which of the top 17 Koreans win, so why bother watching? Welcome to the decline of the SC2 scene, it will soon just be like SC again, totally Korean dominated with extremely limited interest in the Western world, because by and large we don't want to watch Koreans battle it out for money, we want to watch hometown heroes win at least some of the time. Who are the "hometown heroes" for you? | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On April 10 2012 22:18 Egyptian_Head wrote: The language barrier is the biggest problem in marketing Koreans. It isn't. The biggest barrier to marketing Koreans is that they're Korean, meaning - A. They live in Korea. B. Their primary social interaction is with Koreans. C. They're culturally Korean - in customs, language, values, etc. D. They look Korean. E. They identify with Korea, rather than with foreigners. Every single one of these factors contribute to the challenge of marketing Koreans, and these are the same factors that make it difficult to market Asian celebrities in the West. Yes, there is a racist dimension to it - ie D, which is a race problem and has been called out as such repeatedly in the Asian celebrities case - but it is what it is. Saying there's no problem is not going to make it go away. On the up side, none of this makes Koreans un-marketable - all it does is raise the barrier of entry. Korean players who actively reach out to the foreigner community - ie MC, DRG, Polt - are able to gather their own fan bases. This does not mean, however, that SC 2 benefits from having 16/16 Koreans in every premier tournament, for the simple reason that while you're able to market individual Koreans, the sport itself is not marketable internationally when the only high caliber players of it come from a single country. You don't want SC 2 to be known as a Korean eSport, because that makes it parochical and niche. | ||
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FuRRyChoBo
United States218 Posts
On April 11 2012 01:54 k!llua wrote: You know what one counter to the Korean dominance might actually be? A prompt release of all replays from every qualifier as soon as the event finishes. Pros might not like it, but it'll be a lot better for the fans and it'll make life just a little more difficult for the Koreans (since the foreigners will have a bit more ammo under their belts - although this will work both ways). How would this do anything but help the Koreans more? Posts from Naniwa (and I assume others) have indicated that the reason Koreans are so good compared to foreigners is because foreigners are by and large on their own. Koreans have coaches that study their players' opponents, and while there's definitely not "standard" play in any matchup at this point, as there is in Brood War, it's fairly easy to tell when a foreigner is playing and when a Korean is playing. Increasing the amount of information available is only going to benefit the Koreans more. The system is skewed towards Korean success because on the whole, they work better together. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On April 11 2012 01:49 murkk wrote: Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing. Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers. I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now. Actually, NaDa and BoxeR both have amazing bodies (no homo) yeah that is the nature of the job, athletes are outside and more active while e athletes shut themselves in because hey can you really practice SCII on a tennis court? | ||
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Fueled
United States1610 Posts
Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing. Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers. I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now. Its a whole different ball game in the Korean scene. Pro gamers over there are treated like celebrities, its just that the majority of them aren't getting paid enough. What you are saying though mostly applies to the foreign scene. Its because the majority of people outside of pro gaming see it as a waste of time and don't take it serious. I remember watching a Stephano interview and him saying that his mother wasn't happy that he got into pro gaming. That was of course until he won his first major prized tournament and it changed her viewing of it. Heck, Idra gave up a scholarship to college to persue his pro gaming career. Look at him now, no college degree, but making a six figure income. People outside of the gaming world in the foreign scene need to wake up and see that there's a boat load of money in this industry and that people are and can make a living off it. | ||
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YodaGoneMad
United States58 Posts
Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win. The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans. | ||
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clever_us
United States329 Posts
The fact that we are even having a debate about this disgusts me. | ||
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WickedBit
United States343 Posts
A lot of NA and european players still tend to favor the deathball approach which is quickly becoming out of style due to the coin flippy nature on the final battle. To compete they will have to adapt and be a lot more aggressive out of the bat. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:09 YodaGoneMad wrote: Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win. The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans. hmm interesting I don't seem to relate myself to an angry American midget, a Canadian midget or a Swede more so than I can to a South Korean. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:12 ref4 wrote: hmm interesting I don't seem to relate myself to an angry American midget, a Canadian midget or a Swede more so than I can to a South Korean. but they speak english!!!!!!!!! Truly a character defining attribute. | ||
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CosmicHippo
United States547 Posts
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rift
1819 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:09 YodaGoneMad wrote: Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win. The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans. I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way. | ||
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TritaN
United States406 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:09 YodaGoneMad wrote: Anyone I have heard of that speaks passable english. I remember very early in the scene when Naniwa swept the MLG, or when Idra won the first IPL, or when Huk has won events. That was extremely exciting, these were guys that could BE ME, I could relate, they were just normal guys that got good at the game and managed to win. The short version I guess, is anyone but a Korean. I just don't care if Korean A or B or C or D wins. I don't know them, they don't speak my language, I don't relate to them, I will never be them (nor do I want to be). Obviously, I will never be Idra either, but there is that feeling that I COULD. It is basically sports psychology, you can google it and read up on it. It has been demonstrated thouroghly, people invest in players they can relate to. Why was Tim Tebow such a phenomenon? Because a big part of the public really related to his message and his faith. This is the same thing, I like SC2 players I can relate to, and that basically isn't Koreans. You sound incredibly close-minded and xenophobic. | ||
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rstar
Canada6 Posts
Not every event has to be like the god damn Olympics. I'm actually really excited for NASL season 3 with the lineup they have. http://nasl.tv/p/season3 | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:13 Tachion wrote: but they speak english!!!!!!!!! Truly a character defining attribute. lol so can Korean pros like DRG and Polt. and why is anyone STILL an IdrA fan? I mean he rage quits even in tournaments, put up bad results and doesn't give a rat's ass about his fans. | ||
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YodaGoneMad
United States58 Posts
On April 11 2012 02:14 rift wrote: I guess that's how you roll. Thankfully, not everyone feels the same way. The mass market does, I said it a year ago and got the same response. Things have unfolded as I predicted so far, and I feel confident it will continue. There are those people that relate to the Koreans, but they are not the Western mass market. Expect sponsors to drop, western tournaments to close, and viewer turnout to continue to decline as the Koreans cement their domination. Within a few years SC2 will just be SC1 with a new coat of paint and a dead western scene. Mark down my post, I will see ya in a few years to remind you I was right. A real shame too, because early on it looked like SC2 might bring e-Sports to the Western masses, but that has pretty much evaporated. | ||
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RageBot
Israel1530 Posts
On April 11 2012 00:55 ladyumbra wrote: Ok lets try this. concern 1 . We can't relate to the koreans ! * Already disproven by multiple people in multiple posts. It is entirely possible to relate to people outside your own culture. NA probably has the largest casual fanbase and the least Pros capable of showing off impressive games. Chances are the last foreigner in a tournament will be european and/ or currently training in korea. Most of the time the primary language of that player will not be english. Even if they speak english it will not always be entirely smooth becuase of different grammar structures etc (ex. naniwa. white-ra, stephano). While not racist saying " I only want to cheer for people who're like me" is certainly predjudiced and false since the average new yorker probably has nothing in common with Mana or Bling or Kas etc. Casual fans like that are creating their own boundaries on who they feel they can relate to. If we suddenly get a slew of foreign pros from idk south america who can win major tournaments but need a translator because they don't speak english I highly doubt they will be embraced by all. The world VS korea nonsense gives an illusion of a united western scene but such a thing does not exist. Concern 2. We want to see a variety of players ! * So do I, which means not seeing the same few foreign hopes trotted out at every tournament. However that requires the pro scenes of different regions to produce players who can actually qualify for events. . Limiting how many players can come from each region will almost always lead to only the same players coming from each region. Even if you hold qualifiers, NA will almost always end up being HuK, Idra, Select etc. EU would have to split into mini regions but would predictaly be a zerg like ret, morrow or nerchio, a toss like Naniwa, Mana or Sase, and a terran like Thorzain, Tarson or Kas. Korea would actually have the most fluid roster since they have a wider amount of top level pros who can all beat each other on any given day. Also the scene is currently not set up to have such a system because all our tournaments are run by different leagues. It'd be awkward if one league introduced region limits and others didn't. Then you basically split the fanbase between those who want equal representation and those who want to see the best play out of people who legit earned thier way into a tournament. teams then also have to choose which competitions to send their players too and how that looks to the general public. Plus you know most foreign teams have atleast one korean player now, I'm sure it'd be great if liquid was like " Hey guys we're taking everyone to mlg for open bracket but um Hero and Zenio and Taeja becuase you see we can't have too many koreans." Concern 3 All koreans is boring to watch! * This is subjective and it depends on the players in question. If you fill a tournament with drg, mc, mma, mkp etc even casual people will like it becuase they like those players and their playstyles. Concern 4 We can't qualify becuase we can't get through open bracket! * Tough cookies, a qualifier like open bracket weeds out the weak, if foreign players can't get through then they didn't deserve to be there anyways. How many god damned times did people bitch about incontrol going 0-5 in groups at mlg because he could not keep up with what was still mostly just other foreign players and a handful of koreans. Limiting how many koreans can play in qualifers and open brackets would only lead to more awkward situations where someone undeserving makes it to groups and gets facerolled. Huk and Sase almost made it to pool play at IPl4 and they took down several koreans to do so. If we redid that open bracket multiple times there's a good chance some of those times they'd get through becuase they've proven capable of consistent high level play. However this time they failed, it's not the end of the world. concern 5. There are more casual fans we deserve to be the biggest voice! * Dosen't matter, especially as tournaments move towards more sustainable revenue types. Hardcore watchers are more likely to pay for HD, vods, multiple cameras so they can watch from a pros pov etc. Being the majority does not make you more important and doesn't even garuntee that you contribute the most to the community despite having more people to do so with. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327880¤tpage=28#548 Here are some actualy numbers, not your opinion based on a vocal part (maybe majority, maybe not) of a site that at most includes 25% of the SC2 viewerbase (probably around 10%, during IPL4 there were 180,000 live views on the streams while only 17,000 people were on TL). | ||
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
But I would definitely like to see at least one major tournament where that rule is applied. Just like an Olympics type of thing. Where people get to cheer for their home country. I definitely had fun watching WCG for SC:BW way back then. Before WCG, I had no clue about players like FroZ or Grrrr... I think it's just a great way to promote players all across the world. | ||
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