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On April 11 2012 00:55 Crushinator wrote:
If you had not taken that quote out of context, you would have realized my preference is not a result of any of those things. I do not dismiss the achievements of Koreans as less worthy or admirable in any way. My reasoning is that a display of foregin ability to compete is better for competetive Starcraft than another display of Korean dominance. Quote mining like that is quite malicious.
If you had a better logical sense, you would realize that no matter what your reasoning, no matter how you try to explain or call what I did "quote mining" (trying to discredit it), the fact still remains that you feel happier when a foreigner wins than when a Korean wins just based on the fact that its a Korean from a Korea and a foreigner from Not-Korea. Your entire arguement was contained in that one quote whether or not you are capable of realizing that.
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On April 11 2012 00:39 RRjr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote:
Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story. Most of them can't. As a westerner... from the moment you turn 18 you simply can't afford to invest the time required to become as good. Our society has no respect and a hell of a lot of prejudices towards progaming and e-sports in general. Hence, there's just no cultural and almost no financial backup. As long as that remains true foreigners will never be as good as Koreans, because this backup is required for skill of such caliber to arise. Therefor when faced with the decision of pursuing progaming or whatever else, there's no choice for 99% of western gamers but to give up on progaming as a serious venture. Western e-sports has to bring about nothing less that a cultural paradigm shift. To pull that off, a lot more money needs to be pumped into western e-sports in general. In order for a lot more money to be invested, the audience needs to grow and pay more. In order for the audience to grow and spend more money on e-sports, tournaments need to be exciting, competitive and rewarding. So yeah... if you let Koreans stomp each and every tournament with all the background they have coming from Korea... SC2 will not grow much more as an e-sport. It's not cool but it's just the way it is, IMO.
The current pros need to get better in order to open the gates for new talent to come through. I'm talking about the pros who live in team houses, are already getting paid to play and are able to commit to hours and hours of practice. If the pro Korean players are putting in 10+ hours of training a day, then the foreign pros should be, too.
The foundation is here for the foreigners, we just have to tip over the first domino.
Current pros practice a few more hours a day > they get better > they eventually get to the level of Korean play > they start winning major tournaments that include top Korean players > eSports is then looked at as a viable option for those who may have questioned its stability in the foreign scene > more people are then playing, trying to become pro > more talented players in the ladder pool/pro pool leads to better practice for foreign players and makes the foreign scene grow.
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Although SC2 is still secondary interest after korean BW leagues; when there is a even match, korean vs foreigner somehow feels more entertaining.
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Telling foreigners to just "work harder" is idiotic. It's like trying to put a hole in a brick wall with one's head. There isn't enough incentive. Foreigners aren't going to work harder unless changes are made, and that's one of the points of this topic: to discuss possible changes.
If the businessmen think that temporary protectionist policies [like limiting Koreans] is the solution, then so be it. But waiting around for foreigners to improve isn't a solution. Suggesting that foreigners "get better" doesn't help and is quite annoying. There has to be more reason to do so, or they just won't.
Unfortunately, I don't see any way to improve the foreigner scene that doesn't involve excluding Korean participation in some significant part. I refuse to consider any solution that ignores foreigners or suggests to just improve marketing Koreans or the like. Korean domination will increase even if nothing is done anyway, so it seems less productive to discuss.
My own very vague suggestion is to use to look at the NBA. Koreans as the NBA players, foreigners as everyone else. By slowly "going global", the NBA has helped improve the quality of play in the league, as well as quality everywhere else, and has made a lot of money in the process. The Korean teams themselves are in fact doing something analogous by partnering with foreign teams, training their players, selling abroad, etc. I think that the teams should just ramp it up more. Or maybe an organization like GOM itself can help. Team competitions where the performance of foreigners is worth double points. Seeding. All the while maintaining reasonable expectations of these players. After all, Koreans will continue to be better as long as the people supporting them invest more in them than the people supporting foreigners do.
[note: Korean participation is "restricted" if foreigners are given preference such as a seed, because it could have been a Korean]
inxs: tdt's post on page 28 is nice.
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I think we should stop looking players based on their nationality. Nationality doesn't mean anything. Some of the best players are from foreign community, some are from Korea. This is why we call the players through IDs, and NOT by their full names (well, it is hard to pronounce some of the names, but oh well you get the idea  ).
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To those who are saying that it doesnt matter where the pros come from:
Do you have a simple understanding of economics?
If the foreigners keep losing becasue they're no smart enough to form a good (korea like) structure (for practice etc.) they'll keep failing.
And you know what comes with constant failing? Right. Nobody will want you to pay or you won't be able to afford things like flight cost or anything else. Therefore more and more people will start dropping that game (or e-sports) in general. And with that the sponsors will go away too.
Consider it before you think that one country dominating is ok.
So either the foreign pro will form team houses and start training effectivly or the e-sports organizations will have to regulate this development.
On the side: My opinion is that people DO care whether a pro is from their country. There is no sport in the world where people dont care about their country. I understand that e-sports is very different in many aspects (like the connectivity it has to different parts of the world) but its just basic psychology: Groups are important to people!!! And just because there are more people in THIS Thread that say otherwise...its normal for the internet: only those who are concerned or feel attacked, are those who say something about it...
*sorry for bad eng.*
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Yeah the get better argument amounts to telling starving ppl someplace to get richer. No can do without tools and eviroment which fosters getting better. Perefct example is north vs south Korea. One wealthy one dirt poor. Same ppl but one was given tools
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On April 11 2012 00:39 RRjr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote:
Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story. Most of them can't. As a westerner... from the moment you turn 18 you simply can't afford to invest the time required to become as good. Our society has no respect and a hell of a lot of prejudices towards progaming and e-sports in general. Hence, there's just no cultural and almost no financial backup. As long as that remains true foreigners will never be as good as Koreans, because this backup is required for skill of such caliber to arise. Therefor when faced with the decision of pursuing progaming or whatever else, there's no choice for 99% of western gamers but to give up on progaming as a serious venture. Western e-sports has to bring about nothing less that a cultural paradigm shift. To pull that off, a lot more money needs to be pumped into western e-sports in general. In order for a lot more money to be invested, the audience needs to grow and pay more. In order for the audience to grow and spend more money on e-sports, tournaments need to be exciting, competitive and rewarding. So yeah... if you let Koreans stomp each and every tournament with all the background they have coming from Korea... SC2 will not grow much more as an e-sport. It's not cool but it's just the way it is, IMO.
Eh...where do you get the idea that the Koreans have some sort of solid backup plan when they decide to go into progaming? A majority of them drop out of middle/high schools to devote full time on starcraft. It's really REALLY hard to get a decent job in the future if you didn't graduate from high school let alone middle school, even more so than it is in Western countries because the Korean culture is downright obsessed with education. They're giving up a lot too. There's a ton of prejudice against progaming over there as well and the vast majority of parents would be adamantly against it if their children tell them "Mom, dad, I want to drop out of school so that I can become a progamer". Many Korean progamers don't succeed, but people naturally don't really notice those guys because all the attention is on the successful ones like Boxer and Nada.
But, they still go into progaming. No matter how high the risk is, it's what they want to do.
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Netherlands2138 Posts
On April 11 2012 00:58 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 00:55 Crushinator wrote:
If you had not taken that quote out of context, you would have realized my preference is not a result of any of those things. I do not dismiss the achievements of Koreans as less worthy or admirable in any way. My reasoning is that a display of foregin ability to compete is better for competetive Starcraft than another display of Korean dominance. Quote mining like that is quite malicious. If you had a better logical sense, you would realize that no matter what your reasoning, no matter how you try to explain or call what I did "quote mining" (trying to discredit it), the fact still remains that you feel happier when a foreigner wins than when a Korean wins just based on the fact that its a Korean from a Korea and a foreigner from Not-Korea. Your entire arguement was contained in that one quote whether or not you are capable of realizing that.
If you truly think that the quote contained my whole argument, it is infact you who is the windowlicker.
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On April 11 2012 00:45 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision". .
Oh give me a break. People trying to compare sitting in front of a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day in a tiny house with 20 other people for years on end with zero payoff and no future is in ANY way shape or form equivilent to being an athlete in any real sport or olympic activity need to wake the fuck up from their fantasy world.
And yes, I would do anything in the world to prevent my kid from such a horrible dead end life.
And the people I enjoy are the winners in this little fantasy world. The thousands of people who lose you never see. Sorta like showing all the winners at a casino while keeping the losers in their adult diapers tucked away out of sight but still playing slots with kid's education fund hoping for the big win.
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On April 11 2012 01:04 Chunhyang wrote:
Telling foreigners to just "work harder" is idiotic. It's like trying to put a hole in a brick wall with one's head. There isn't enough incentive. Foreigners aren't going to work harder unless changes are made, and that's one of the points of this topic: to discuss possible changes.
If the businessmen think that temporary protectionist policies [like limiting Koreans] is the solution, then so be it. But waiting around for foreigners to improve isn't a solution. Suggesting that foreigners "get better" doesn't help and is quite annoying. There has to be more reason to do so, or they just won't.
Unfortunately, I don't see any way to improve the foreigner scene that doesn't involve excluding Korean participation in some significant part. I refuse to consider any solution that ignores foreigners or suggests to just improve marketing Koreans or the like. Korean domination will increase even if nothing is done anyway, so it seems less productive to discuss.
Its all right infront of us in black and white. Koreans put more time into practice and their rankings show it. Its not a mystery as to why Korean players are better. They weren't born with the ability to play Starcraft 2 better than foreign players. They put more time into practice and practice against people of equal or higher skill level and thus are better because of it.
As I stated in an earlier post, foreign teams (entire teams including managers) need to go over to Korea and study the team houses over there. Learn the work ethic, learn how they train, etc... Bring that back to NA/Europe/where ever and model a team house/work enviroment after that. Its the only true way for foreigner teams to get better, (aside from signing Korean players currently playing on Korean teams).
The market is in the foreign scene. All the money and major sponsors are in the foreign scene and that should give the foreigner players more incentive to improve. Sooner or later you are going to start seeing more and more Koreans coming to foreign teams for the money and taking spots that would have been for foreign players.
Take a look at the Korean teams. Many of the B team players on these teams make little to nothing. These B teamers though can come over to the foreign scene, sign with a respectable team, pick up sponsors and make a pretty good living off playing. Over there you're either a Code S/A player or your a practice partner for these teams, getting little to nothing salary wise. Whats the incentive to keep playing over there if you are one of these B team players? To maybe get up to Code A or S in an already huge talent pool? Or maybe signing with a foreign team? What if you don't want to leave Korea to go live in a foreign teams house and be in an alien land? Wheres the incentive there for people like that?
My point being though that the money is here, the sponsors are here, the players want to be here. The incentive is here to get better. Put in a litttle extra practice and start taking out these top Koreans in major tournaments.
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On April 11 2012 01:04 exterminatus wrote:
Although SC2 is still secondary interest after korean BW leagues; when there is a even match, korean vs foreigner somehow feels more entertaining.
Of course it does, when Stephano goes toe to toe with Polt it produces some of the craziest and best ZvT out there. However that is a combination of two players of high level facing off and the foreigners vs korean aspect. Limiting how often a player like Polt would be able to attend tournaments in order to ensure a higher amount of western players does not stop most other western pros from getting destroyed however.
Again
Blizzcon: 14 foreign players all had to win regional qualifiers ( minus substitutions with the chinese players). Top 2 still korean
53 quailified foreigners at wcg. MVP still won with marineking and supernova in the top 8.
Foreigners always outnumber koreans at IEM and local heros get a chance to show off, only once did a non korean win an IEM last year. most of the time they also held the majority of the top spots
We already have multiple tournaments where korean numbers are limited guys, even with a huge numbers advantage western players are generally not winning. On occasion they can be competitve and when they are it's fucking great but skewing the numbers in their favour will not solve the problem of foreign vs korea winrate. It only solves the issue ( if you have one) of how many foreign players you see before the top 4 or so is all korean anyways.
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I dont get the point? You want to chant USA? Its so wrong - the better players are players from GSL the most competetive scene is korean scene the area with teamhouses and even the first real programing cluture is in korea... Korea players deserve their succes and after watching more and more games I got very quickly over the point thinking oh only koreans this is so dumb... its not... its not even less tension in play if you watch korean TVT to a boring foreigner TVT because THEY are much BETTER... also it might not be a question racial prejudice but there must be some reason why people dont like to see koreans win even if they deserve it ... I like a lot of korean players and i think they desever their money and desvere to win foreigners should try to catch up but i think people should get over it start watching GSL and root for a cool korean player... maybe in some month we have tons of former BW players killing foreigner players left and right... also keep in mind Last weekend was a special event that many koreans wont be at all tournaments-.
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On April 11 2012 01:23 murkk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 00:45 sCCrooked wrote:Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision". . Oh give me a break. People trying to compare sitting in front of a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day in a tiny house with 20 other people for years on end with zero payoff and no future is in ANY way shape or form equivilent to being an athlete in any real sport or olympic activity needs to wake the fuck up from their fantasy world. And yes, I would do anything in the world to prevent my kid from such a horrible dead end life.
Similarity: Both athletes and e-athletes train very hard 24/7. Both perform repetitive actions over and over and over again until physical or mental exhaustion kicks in. Exercising and gaming are very similar in this regard, the first 1-2 hours of it is very fun, but 8-10 hours of non-stop exercise or gaming makes it a boring and demanding job.
Difference: Real athletes have HUGE sponsorship. E-athletes have small to medium sponsorship. Every human being on Earth loves to watch athletic gatherings because they are exciting, engaging, and audiences can identify and pride themselves in athletes representing their respective nations doing well. Only a small % of humans watch eSports because in order to even understand it you need to buy expensive video gaming equipment in the first place.
I wouldn't say those two are totally different, but there are similarities and difference between e-athletes and real athletes.
And yes I do agree that most e-athletes (99%) have little next to no future even with sponsors. That 1% that keeps winning everything (MC, Nestea, MVP) at best can make only half a million in their entire career before their wrists burned out or younger competitors start taking their prize. Whereas real athletes, even the mediocre ones get multi million dollar contract just for being bad (i.e. Jeremy Lin) and slightly marketable.
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There is no Korean problem, The simple fact is in any true competitive sport the best will rise to the top. Its up to "the foreigners" to ship up or ship out.
You can visibly see the skill level difference in the play between the foreigners and the Koreans, and any tournament that excluded the best in the world will be the worse for it. Players only get out what they put in and at the moment the foreigners are simply not trying hard enough with the exception of a few that has gone to Korea to train.
Stephano has proved you don't need to travel to a another country to improve, all you need is hard work,determination to be the best you can be, and some natural talent.
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The funny thing is that the Koreans train harder for far less. The teams over there don't have the financial backing to pay their players salaries like they do in the western scene, hence why so many Koreans want to join foreign teams.
It's just a difference in work ethic, straight up. This is why people like Naniwa and HuK do so well, they're the hardest working foreigners.
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On April 11 2012 01:36 Destroyr wrote:
I dont get the point? You want to chant USA? Its so wrong - the better players are players from GSL the most competetive scene is korean scene the area with teamhouses and even the first real programing cluture is in korea... Korea players deserve their succes and after watching more and more games I got very quickly over the point thinking oh only koreans this is so dumb... its not... its not even less tension in play if you watch korean TVT to a boring foreigner TVT because THEY are much BETTER... also it might not be a question racial prejudice but there must be some reason why people dont like to see koreans win even if they deserve it ... I like a lot of korean players and i think they desever their money and desvere to win foreigners should try to catch up but i think people should get over it start watching GSL and root for a cool korean player... maybe in some month we have tons of former BW players killing foreigner players left and right... also keep in mind Last weekend was a special event that many koreans wont be at all tournaments-.
It has nothing to do with race or people not watching it because its only Koreans. Its the fact that these top Koreans own the top foreign players to a tee and by participating in these foreign tournaments, hold down the growth of eSports outside of Korea.
Now you can't just go and ban Korean players from every foreign tournament. Who does that help? No one. The only way to fix this is for the foreign players to improve. Wheres the fun in watching a foreign tournament when you know that the best players in the world were banned from it because they were THE BEST. No fun, man.
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1019 Posts
On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote:
I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant.
Pretty much sums it up
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On April 11 2012 01:38 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:23 murkk wrote:On April 11 2012 00:45 sCCrooked wrote:Why would my playing SC have anything to do with whether or not thousands of Koreans make horrible life decisions in what to do with their time? No need to be defensive Its crap like this that will kill the idea of e-sports before it even begins. Racist biggotry only make you like like an ignorant scrub not worth of attention. The very pros who dedicate their lives to something you see as "making horrible life decisions". I'm an ex-pro athlete and I take that as a statement built to discourage people from trying. I would never tell my child that dedicating their LIVES to something they love is a "horrible life decision". . Oh give me a break. People trying to compare sitting in front of a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day in a tiny house with 20 other people for years on end with zero payoff and no future is in ANY way shape or form equivilent to being an athlete in any real sport or olympic activity needs to wake the fuck up from their fantasy world. And yes, I would do anything in the world to prevent my kid from such a horrible dead end life. Similarity: Both athletes and e-athletes train very hard 24/7. Both perform repetitive actions over and over and over again until physical or mental exhaustion kicks in. Exercising and gaming are very similar in this regard, the first 1-2 hours of it is very fun, but 8-10 hours of non-stop exercise or gaming makes it a boring and demanding job. Difference: Real athletes have HUGE sponsorship. E-athletes have small to medium sponsorship. Every human being on Earth loves to watch athletic gatherings because they are exciting, engaging, and audiences can identify and pride themselves in athletes representing their respective nations doing well. Only a small % of humans watch eSports because in order to even understand it you need to buy expensive video gaming equipment in the first place. I wouldn't say those two are totally different, but there are similarities and difference between e-athletes and real athletes. And yes I do agree that most e-athletes (99%) have little next to no future even with sponsors. That 1% that keeps winning everything (MC, Nestea, MVP) at best can make only half a million in their entire career before their wrists burned out or younger competitors start taking their prize. Whereas real athletes, even the mediocre ones get multi million dollar contract just for being bad (i.e. Jeremy Lin) and slightly marketable.
Wow, and intelligent post. Amazing.
Sure, their are similarities. But the differences are huge. When have you seen a woman begging for a man with a gamers body instead of an athletes. How many job interviews are impressed with "70-100 hours a week" gaming? How many people in the world can even relate to a SC2 player? How many impressive leadership skills have you seen? How many jobs are there in the SC2 former player catagory? Have you seen heard these 12 hour / day korean gamers.
I mean, even the most dedicated athlete has some personal time. However, it seems like every fan wants the players to turn into some sort of 14 hour a day zombie robot that only play SC2. I honestly feel guilty watching these games now.
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On April 11 2012 01:45 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 23:46 RageBot wrote:
I find it hilarious, not a single person of the "pro-korean" posters have said anything about the actual points of the "anti-korean" posters.
You just blame us for being "racist", say stuff like "we should work harder" (while you are never part of that "we" since you are just a guy posting in TL without a hint of SC2 skill), you don't realize that we (the "casual" fans) are the majority (check out the voting on HuK vs Heart on the last MLG).
You also seem to be uncapable of realizing that we don't wish to ban Koreans altogether, we just don't want 30+ Koreans in a tournemant. Pretty much sums it up
Wyatt the White Elephant would find these competitions to be a farce.
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EPT
