Hello there, I just have a pretty simple question.
How much on average, do you think a starcraft 2 pro player spends just playing games each day?
I only ask because I've adopted SC2 as my hobby, and when I'm not working my full time job or partying on the weekends I like to shut in and bang out some SC2 games. I'd like to dedicate a lot of time to this game and see where it takes me.
Just for fun, I played about 20 games today, and I would say the average game time is around 15 minutes or so (that's probably a little conservative), which means I played ~300 minutes or 5 hours.
Is this on par with what a pro player does? Or do I need to ramp it up even more?
They play around there. Maybe an hour more or less. Then they spend like 1-2 hours watching replays, making builds. 1-2 hours playing weekly cups and so i guess.
The general concensus is most pros play around 8 hours a day but a few korean pros apparently play around 12 hours or if they have a specific tourney coming up. 5 hours is enough to get quite good really quickly if its efficient enough, and if you are particularly gifted could get you near pro level, stephano said he used to practice around 4-5 hours before he started winning everything. But at the end of the day if its only a hobby i would play as much as it is fun, and try not to let it consume your life if you dont wish to do it as a career, gl!
On April 09 2012 16:06 Hoodlum wrote: Depends its varies from player to player but EG's Incontrol has talked about 10 to 12 hour practices and such...
EG practice from what I have seen from their stream is 1(or 2) of their players playing and the rest observing. Maybe why they do reasonably long sessions.
Edit: Then again they dont stream constantly, could just be what they do for streaming time.
Estimates vary but the Koreans practice very consistently for many (8ish or more) hours almost every day. I'm not sure what foreigners do but it usually doesn't reach that level. Stephano famously said he only practiced four hours a day but I think that recently he has upped his practice regimen.
I think that "8 hours" of strictly playing every day is a myth. That kind of mental exercise can be draining if you keep it up for long. It's certainly more possible to focus about 8 hours per day on Starcraft overall, including replays, watching other players, discussing strategy with other players who are on or above your level. Even custom games (micro trainer, etc.) can improve your play. I do think it's fine to play/study/practice Starcraft for 10+ hours in one day, but certainly not every day or even most days of the week.
On the other hand, 1-2 hours a few nights per week isn't getting you anywhere.
You should set a bar that feels comfortable for you to the point where you feel like you're working towards getting better, but not so much you get sick of it. If you play too much, start tilting, etcetera, you should absolutely take a break and do something else. Even picking up another game in the same genre (or close enough i.e. MOBAs) can help improve your fundamentals in a way that will rub off on your game long-term.
certainly as a full time college student, i play about 10-15 games each day. however, you can still improve if you do what i do which is watching personal and high level stream (their POV) on ladder or vod. if you think about their decision making and pay closely to build order and timing in particular, you will gain a better understanding of this game. when i started to play this game, i used to play 20-30 games during summer break. it is true that you have to mass games to improve gradually but keep in mind don't stress yourself and have fun importantly!
I imagine it varies greatly. There might be somewhat of an average middle area and then some serious outliers.
Can't know for sure unless you ask the pros individually. Probably ramps up the closer you get to events. But then again on individual might find success if they play less right before an event so... a thread like this is just guesswork.
Well, Stephano structures his practices so he only does around 4-5 hours per day, while on the other end of the extreme you have Koreans who practice the entire day. Then you have other pro players which span the entire spectrum, although most seem to practice around 8-12 hours per day.
It really depends on what you are practicing and whether you have specific goals while you practice. Structuring your practice with clear goals on what you are trying to practice is extremely helpful. I would guess 5 hours is about the bare minimum though.
The article pretty much covers everything i just said; although its more of a debate over the value of a team house, but it does examine how pros practice.
It depends on who your talking about. If its someone thats currently in school I wouldnt expect more than 5-8 hours. Anybody else and it can be anywhere from 10-6 depending on what they are doing and what they are planning to get accomplished. Im not pro but I have goals to get there someday and I practice on smurfs between 6-8 hours a day. on weekends i may get 8-10 if nothings going on.
probably 30-50 games per day to maintain mechanics. other than that alot of analysis, alot of practicing one certain thing (my marine splits are weak, im going to practice them until it's perfect then practice it even more.) alot of certain build practicing vs and doing. etc etc...
On April 09 2012 16:40 Corsica wrote: max is 16 i think, i remember huk saying that if they lose gstl they practice 16 hours, if they win (round) they get treated to a dinneer
NesTea has said he's done some 16 hour practice sessions at PC bangs (with smoke breaks of course)
The average seems to be 20 ladder games and 20 custom games a day. (source = bnet profiles)
On April 09 2012 16:37 DMZ wrote: Well, Stephano structures his practices so he only does around 4-5 hours per day, while on the other end of the extreme you have Koreans who practice the entire day. Then you have other pro players which span the entire spectrum, although most seem to practice around 8-12 hours per day.
It really depends on what you are practicing and whether you have specific goals while you practice. Structuring your practice with clear goals on what you are trying to practice is extremely helpful. I would guess 5 hours is about the bare minimum though.
The article pretty much covers everything i just said; although its more of a debate over the value of a team house, but it does examine how pros practice.
On April 09 2012 16:40 Corsica wrote: max is 16 i think, i remember huk saying that if they lose gstl they practice 16 hours, if they win (round) they get treated to a dinneer
NesTea has said he's done some 16 hour practice sessions at PC bangs (with smoke breaks of course)
The average seems to be 20 ladder games and 20 custom games a day. (source = bnet profiles)
its nestea, he probably altered the fabric of time so he could play more games than its possible in 16 hours, and 16 hours turned in 24 hours...
You can average games per pro by looking at the profiles and it breaks down to 20-30 games a day with about 24 being average.
semi pro or not big pro names sometimes play around 12-15 sometimes less (this is on NA)
All in all NA pros done play as much as they claim as reflected in both custom game counts and ladder games (taking away smurf accounts and other servers) so I would say 10 games a day will show great progress 20 a day if you really want to go far. I have tested this myself and it proves to hold true (8 hour challenge for a week straight)
They have pretty set schedules and I'd love to get my hands on one. We can say they spend their entire day improving. May that be grinding out PvT games, Watching reps, discussing the game. They dedicate 100% of their time to practice. They'll take breaks for food but the highest level pros sneak in as much time as possible. I would say it's more realistic to say 10 hours a day of just SC2 improvement. The main question you should ask yourself is what tier of pro? MKP has practised up to 18 hours in a single day and now he's winning damn near everything. A player like HuK who is one of the most dedicated foreigner players puts in roughly 8-9 hours and is mid-high code S level. Results vary between the players. Some people get to fatigued playing 11 hours straight and that ammount of practice isn't right for them. I myself put in 11 hours a day and don't mind sitting the entire time and taking minimal breaks. My practice partners have to take several breaks through-out our practice sessions. Everyone is different, Play as long as you feel comfortable and what is efficient for you.
P.S. Sorry for the wall of text/ 2:15 AM here and haven't slept in a while.
I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
I've read that most BW teams have like 12 hour mandatory practice, and some people will add 3 hours on top of that. Most sc2 practice isn't that intense, but anything over 8 hours a day is basically standard.
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
Yup, foreign pro's don't practice as much, koreans practice a ton it's why they so gosu :D
MarineKing said he pra tices 18 hours a day, dunno if it's a mistranslation be ause he can't get enough sleep like that. Other pros it probably depends, 8-10?
On April 09 2012 18:05 Coeus1 wrote: Khaldor once said that many foreign pros say they practice alot, but in REALITY they don't practice that much. Lazy bastards.
Of course there are exceptions.
I don't doubt him. If NA pros were playing 10 hours a day or whatever like they claim, they wouldn't be so bad .
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
You are right about that, but with that mindset some things in life just doesn't work out, and being a Starcraft progamer is one of them. You just have to pretty much drop everything in your life and dedicate all your time to practice and the game in general for being successful. You can't just play like 5 hours a day and live a "normal" life because it feels good for you, that won't make you win anything and it shows on every foreigner that isn't grinding this game all day everyday (the only exception would be Stephano?).
On April 09 2012 18:14 Poopi wrote: MarineKing said he pra tices 18 hours a day, dunno if it's a mistranslation be ause he can't get enough sleep like that. Other pros it probably depends, 8-10?
I think he is practicing shopping 18 hours a day because his style is just amazing. but srsly I think its 8-12 but before tournament it can be easily 14-18. even CS players do practice 12h sometimes. You can see how much did Nal_Ra practice in Old boy.
When White-Ra is in practice mode I think I remember him shooting for like atleast 50 or 60 games a day? I don't remember that well since that was many months ago when he was in hardcore practice mode and was streaming atleast half of his games each day.
In reality pro players should be playing no less than 10 hours a day and most Korean pros practice atleast 10-12 hours a day.
On April 09 2012 18:25 Hall0wed wrote: When White-Ra is in practice mode I think I remember him shooting for like atleast 50 or 60 games a day? I don't remember that well since that was many months ago when he was in hardcore practice mode and was streaming atleast half of his games each day.
In reality pro players should be playing no less than 10 hours a day and most Korean pros practice atleast 10-12 hours a day.
For sc2 korean pros that is just a myth. Playing ~50+ games a day is the exception, not the rule, sadly
A lot of the pros actually lie about their hours, im sure of it. This was confirmed to me during the first red bull lan when white ra stated he was disappointed in the way a lot of foreigners couldn't even do more then 30-40 games while him and bomber were doing it np. You can truly see in the play of those who don't practice. But the least amount you would want a day is around 30. In the end though, all that matters are results. There are players like jinro and major who obviously play tons a games but are yet to show major results in a while, and then there are players like stephano who admit to not practicing much yet having excellent play. It all depends. In the end though, people like Flash and even Kobe Bryant didn't become who they are by playing tons of hours, They played till they literally couldn't play anymore for the day.
Less than everybody think. European pros are lazy. We need to change this and teams need to hire coaches to check on players and give them a proper schedule and find practice partners.
On April 09 2012 18:34 aTnClouD wrote: Less than everybody think. European pros are lazy. We need to change this and teams need to hire coaches to check on players and give them a proper schedule and find practice partners.
Yeah if EU pros practiced that much we would see a lot of smurfs coming from several players on top of the GM league like in korea.
I think that a lot of people reading the thread are thinking of practice as constantly playing games. I think that the model of EG obsing, watching, coaching each other, and working on improving is much closer to what the Korean teams likely do than just banging out ladder games. I doubt that they go into any practice match without something specific that they want to work on, and they likely practice against a top-tier practice partner on specific things such as (zerg examples) stopping bunker rushes, dealing with cannons, dealing with early pools, stopping mutas, etc.
It is sad to see that people, who have the possibility to play a videogame as their job are so lazy. Of course you should life healthy etc. but "normal" people somehow manage to work 8hours a day and life healthy - so what is the problem with playing 8 hours a day? Or let's say 6 hours playing + 1 hour pause.
On April 09 2012 18:34 aTnClouD wrote: Less than everybody think. European pros are lazy. We need to change this and teams need to hire coaches to check on players and give them a proper schedule and find practice partners.
You are one of the few pro gamers in Europe. I think you are the only pro gamer from Italy. You are living the dream of many tl.net users I guess. If you want to have a coach etc. then go to korea and practice in a Team House. There you have a lot practice partners, a maid and a coach. Or you just stop being lazy and start realizing how gifted you actually are.
If you play at that rate, OP, you will improve plenty. ATM i only play an hour every week or so, at this rate I'll never hit masters lol (low diamond atm)
Stephano recently stated that he practices 8+ hours a day, although before he used to only practice 3 or 4. I believe it was on the SotG interview. I would imagine an 8 - 10 hour practice schedule would exist for most Korean teams and would involve a lot of the different aspects that have already been stated. Watching replays, strategy discussion, etc. For foreigners, there really isn't the same sort of responsibility. Not saying the players themselves are lazy but that without a regulating body to keep them on task and focused, I believe it very likely foreign pros not only much less, but also much less efficiently.
On April 09 2012 16:40 Corsica wrote: max is 16 i think, i remember huk saying that if they lose gstl they practice 16 hours, if they win (round) they get treated to a dinneer
NesTea has said he's done some 16 hour practice sessions at PC bangs (with smoke breaks of course)
The average seems to be 20 ladder games and 20 custom games a day. (source = bnet profiles)
"smoke break"? WAIT NesTea smokes? As in smoking cigarettes and tobacco, etc. Or is it just an idiom or the term?
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
You are right about that, but with that mindset some things in life just doesn't work out, and being a Starcraft progamer is one of them. You just have to pretty much drop everything in your life and dedicate all your time to practice and the game in general for being successful. You can't just play like 5 hours a day and live a "normal" life because it feels good for you, that won't make you win anything and it shows on every foreigner that isn't grinding this game all day everyday (the only exception would be Stephano?).
My results have gotten much better after i started looking more at other aspects than just practising as much as possible. I think you have no clue tbh. Also, life continues after you stop playing starcraft.
I know most of you think that every foreigner should practise every wake hour he has and that we have no right to do anything else.
I'm not a pro, I'm just a causal gamer who takes sc2 seriously. I tried playing 8-10 hrs for 2 days, and I can tell you that you get exhausted in a extreme way. Your body is aching, your eyes are tired etc. But I think it can be possible if you do some kind of physical exercise & eat healthy. I did some yoga stretches which helped immensely! But it is def. a strain on the body, I think anyone who have played a lot can attest to this? Also, on another related topic isn't it just as important to analyse replays & get "sc2 knowledge"? Any pros have an opinion on this?
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
You are right about that, but with that mindset some things in life just doesn't work out, and being a Starcraft progamer is one of them. You just have to pretty much drop everything in your life and dedicate all your time to practice and the game in general for being successful. You can't just play like 5 hours a day and live a "normal" life because it feels good for you, that won't make you win anything and it shows on every foreigner that isn't grinding this game all day everyday (the only exception would be Stephano?).
My results have gotten much better after i started looking more at other aspects than just practising as much as possible. I think you have no clue tbh. Also, life continues after you stop playing starcraft.
I know most of you think that every foreigner should practise every wake hour he has and that we have no right to do anything else.
As long as you are healthy then the more you practice, the better. The more your brain is exposed to situations in the game, the better chance you can recollect the best choice of action. However, this is assuming that practice well and not just laddering blindly.
On April 09 2012 19:13 SoniC_eu wrote: I'm not a pro, I'm just a causal gamer who takes sc2 seriously. I tried playing 8-10 hrs for 2 days, and I can tell you that you get exhausted in a extreme way. Your body is aching, your eyes are tired etc. But I think it can be possible if you do some kind of physical exercise & eat healthy. I did some yoga stretches which helped immensely! But it is def. a strain on the body, I think anyone who have played a lot can attest to this? Any pros have an opinion on this?
Yes its very exhausting, even moreso if you play at a very high level.
I really think all of the people who have a gigantic mouth here and tell others how and what they should do, please go ahead in practise 12 hours a day for a week and then play a tournament at the end and come back and tell me how it went. In fact, if find it really annoying.
I can't even imagine training for something absurd like 12 hours would be helpful over a "healthy" 6-8 hours a day, which includes all your Sc2 activities like watching replay etc. and not just pure laddering/custom gaming.
I mean there's just a huge payoff at some point. I couldn't imagine something playing a game for 10hours each day for a week without getting seriously awful Starcraft "sleeping withdrawal". With that I mean just not getting the game out of your head because it's gotten so ingrained in your brain that while near-asleep you just keep imaging the game sounds and scenarios.
I mean being healthy and sane is damn important, too.
But then again, I guess I also couldn't argue against the statement, that there are players who DO benefit from extreme sessions like that, so yeh :/
On April 09 2012 16:06 Hoodlum wrote: Depends its varies from player to player but EG's Incontrol has talked about 10 to 12 hour practices and such...
Incontrol even said at some point that he himself was practicing that much. Pretty clear he doesn't as that was during the infamous period of his serial 0-10 group plays of shame at MLG. And if he does really practice that much, then he shouldn't say it out loud, he's basically saying "I'm not talented at all guys, I will keep losing no matter how much I practice".
No, let's be serious here, if you want to look at serious practice, look at Koreans. Some stream for 8 hours in a row, and that's just streaming, it doesn't include special preparation and custom games, build reviewing and such.
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
You are right about that, but with that mindset some things in life just doesn't work out, and being a Starcraft progamer is one of them. You just have to pretty much drop everything in your life and dedicate all your time to practice and the game in general for being successful. You can't just play like 5 hours a day and live a "normal" life because it feels good for you, that won't make you win anything and it shows on every foreigner that isn't grinding this game all day everyday (the only exception would be Stephano?).
My results have gotten much better after i started looking more at other aspects than just practising as much as possible. I think you have no clue tbh. Also, life continues after you stop playing starcraft.
I know most of you think that every foreigner should practise every wake hour he has and that we have no right to do anything else.
Thats the thing with being a progamer, you give up so much when it comes to your future that you kinda have to win alot of money to at least have something when you stop with Starcraft. How do you compete with grinding koreans practicing 10-12 hours a day in a teamhouse with coaches and housekeepers by playing 5 hours a day on EU and spend the rest of the day with your girlfriend etc? Thats a unrealistic picture to have, and you can tell me how much better your results have gotten (you didn't have results before and you have no major results now that can prove your way of practice) but in the end you will never be a champion with the big bucks because your way of thinking and practice doesn't suit Starcraft progaming. You are a really good player, but there are still loooooots of better players out there than you that practice so much more than you, and you will never catch up to them if you don't do the exact same (See: Brood War practice hours, MMA fighers that live and breath training, diet and the sport etc).
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
You are right about that, but with that mindset some things in life just doesn't work out, and being a Starcraft progamer is one of them. You just have to pretty much drop everything in your life and dedicate all your time to practice and the game in general for being successful. You can't just play like 5 hours a day and live a "normal" life because it feels good for you, that won't make you win anything and it shows on every foreigner that isn't grinding this game all day everyday (the only exception would be Stephano?).
My results have gotten much better after i started looking more at other aspects than just practising as much as possible. I think you have no clue tbh. Also, life continues after you stop playing starcraft.
I know most of you think that every foreigner should practise every wake hour he has and that we have no right to do anything else.
Thats the thing with being a progamer, you give up so much when it comes to your future that you kinda have to win alot of money to at least have something when you stop with Starcraft. How do you compete with grinding koreans practicing 10-12 hours a day in a teamhouse with coaches and housekeepers by playing 5 hours a day on EU and spend the rest of the day with your girlfriend etc? Thats a unrealistic picture to have, and you can tell me how much better your results have gotten (you didn't have results before and you have no major results now that can prove your way of practice) but in the end you will never be a champion with the big bucks because your way of thinking and practice doesn't suit Starcraft progaming. You are a really good player, but there are still loooooots of better players out there than you that practice so much more than you, and you will never catch up to them if you don't do the exact same (See: Brood War practice hours, MMA fighers that live and breath training, diet and the sport etc).
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
You are right about that, but with that mindset some things in life just doesn't work out, and being a Starcraft progamer is one of them. You just have to pretty much drop everything in your life and dedicate all your time to practice and the game in general for being successful. You can't just play like 5 hours a day and live a "normal" life because it feels good for you, that won't make you win anything and it shows on every foreigner that isn't grinding this game all day everyday (the only exception would be Stephano?).
My results have gotten much better after i started looking more at other aspects than just practising as much as possible. I think you have no clue tbh. Also, life continues after you stop playing starcraft.
I know most of you think that every foreigner should practise every wake hour he has and that we have no right to do anything else.
Thats the thing with being a progamer, you give up so much when it comes to your future that you kinda have to win alot of money to at least have something when you stop with Starcraft. How do you compete with grinding koreans practicing 10-12 hours a day in a teamhouse with coaches and housekeepers by playing 5 hours a day on EU and spend the rest of the day with your girlfriend etc? Thats a unrealistic picture to have, and you can tell me how much better your results have gotten (you didn't have results before and you have no major results now that can prove your way of practice) but in the end you will never be a champion with the big bucks because your way of thinking and practice doesn't suit Starcraft progaming. You are a really good player, but there are still loooooots of better players out there than you that practice so much more than you, and you will never catch up to them if you don't do the exact same (See: Brood War practice hours, MMA fighers that live and breath training, diet and the sport etc).
Can i hire you as my coach?
No sorry, I'm studying 12 hours a day so I don't have time. Maybe you should ask the manager of your team to fix that for you.
On April 09 2012 16:31 YaTa wrote: certainly as a full time college student, i play about 10-15 games each day. however, you can still improve if you do what i do which is watching personal and high level stream (their POV) on ladder or vod. if you think about their decision making and pay closely to build order and timing in particular, you will gain a better understanding of this game. when i started to play this game, i used to play 20-30 games during summer break. it is true that you have to mass games to improve gradually but keep in mind don't stress yourself and have fun importantly!
On April 09 2012 18:34 aTnClouD wrote: Less than everybody think. European pros are lazy. We need to change this and teams need to hire coaches to check on players and give them a proper schedule and find practice partners.
You are one of the few pro gamers in Europe. I think you are the only pro gamer from Italy. You are living the dream of many tl.net users I guess. If you want to have a coach etc. then go to korea and practice in a Team House. There you have a lot practice partners, a maid and a coach. Or you just stop being lazy and start realizing how gifted you actually are.
What the fuck? I would just like Europe and NA to be on the same level as Korea, what is wrong with it?
Rather heavy weights and low reps instead of light weights many reps... ie make it count.
For me atleast its the quality of training that does it, im not gonna improve if i play 16 hours because ill be too tired and the games will blend togheter. I usually practice maybe 15-20 games a day, Not 2 much not 2 little. I think training is not just playing either, watch streams or thinking is good aswell. Brainstorming with likeminded friends is also great.
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
Yeah I wonder where this idea that Stephano doesn't practice much comes from.
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
Yeah I wonder where this idea that Stephano doesn't practice much comes from.
I believe he said that he only play 4-5 hours a day in some interview like last spring/summer while he was still in school and people still want to believe that he does so because 1. his success becomes more badass because he is foreigner and doesn't grind like koreans and 2. because if he can become so good by only playing 4 hours than there is hope that everyone can too! (-_-)
[B]On April 09 2012 19:30 Gosi wrote: Thats the thing with being a progamer, you give up so much when it comes to your future that you kinda have to win alot of money to at least have something when you stop with Starcraft. do you compete with grinding koreans practicing 10-12 hours a day in a teamhouse with coaches and housekeepers by playing 5 hours a day on EU and spend the rest of the day with your girlfriend etc? Thats a unrealistic picture to have, and you can tell me how much better your results have gotten (you didn't have results before and you have no major results now that can prove your way of practice) but in the end you will never be a champion with the big bucks because your way of thinking and practice doesn't suit Starcraft progaming. You are a really good player, but there are still loooooots of better players out there than you that practice so much more than you, and you will never catch up to them if you don't do the exact same (See: Brood War practice hours, MMA fighers that live and breath training, diet and the sport etc).
I do not think you wasted your life if you do not win money. It is not the best job (I want abetter one) but certainly not the worst. And you have relatively much free time.
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
Yeah I wonder where this idea that Stephano doesn't practice much comes from.
Besides the time he was in the millenium house where he seemed to practice quite a bit, i think he averaged around 10 games/day, so his match history is where it's coming from.
How much should pros practice? Enough so they can handle 22 games from 11am to midnight like Squirtle under tournament conditions against some of the best players in the world. That's how much a pro should train in the current environment.
Wait... if Stephano practices more than most of the Europeans (and I assume North americans), then how much does the foreign community actually practice? When people said the foreigners couldn't keep up with the Koreans due to culture and infrastructure, I thought that was a reasonable argument. Now, it just seems they are incredibly lazy and used culture and infrastructure as an excuse.
On April 09 2012 22:18 Micket wrote: Wait... if Stephano practices more than most of the Europeans (and I assume North americans), then how much does the foreign community actually practice? When people said the foreigners couldn't keep up with the Koreans due to culture and infrastructure, I thought that was a reasonable argument. Now, it just seems they are incredibly lazy and used culture and infrastructure as an excuse.
Stephano said himself he doesn't really practice SC2.
Which means he practices less than most Europeans.
Most professionals practice way more than him, and that's why his success is so interesting.
Culture/infrastruce do play a role, since PC Bangs in Korea really are the spawning pool of eSports.
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
Yeah I wonder where this idea that Stephano doesn't practice much comes from.
I believe he said that he only play 4-5 hours a day in some interview like last spring/summer while he was still in school and people still want to believe that he does so because 1. his success becomes more badass because he is foreigner and doesn't grind like koreans and 2. because if he can become so good by only playing 4 hours than there is hope that everyone can too! (-_-)
This is from an interview while he was in kr for the blizzard cup, just before his matches, where he stated he practiced 4-5 hours for it:
Imo there are other pros like nerchio,mana maybe thorzain amongst others who don't practice much but are less vocal about it, or get less attention because they are not as successful.However just practice hours don't mean much when the quality is much less than the absolute best and much less systematic(without specific plans of improvement).
really it not how long you practice its how you practice. Personaly i think have a small practice group (4 5 6) people and playing for 3 4 hours a day would be fine
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
Yeah I wonder where this idea that Stephano doesn't practice much comes from.
I believe he said that he only play 4-5 hours a day in some interview like last spring/summer while he was still in school and people still want to believe that he does so because 1. his success becomes more badass because he is foreigner and doesn't grind like koreans and 2. because if he can become so good by only playing 4 hours than there is hope that everyone can too! (-_-)
Imo there are other pros like nerchio,mana maybe thorzain amongst others who don't practice much but are less vocal about it, or get less attention because they are not as successful.However just practice hours don't mean much when the quality is much less than the absolute best and much less systematic(without specific plans of improvement).
Well with Nerchio and Mana, I think they both still go to school so they can't practice all the time.
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
How do you know that. Have you asked other pros how many hours/day they practice. And if so, could you give specific exampless?
When that is said, it doesn't surprise me that pros dont practice 8hours/day (efficient hours, meaning they dont chat for 5-10 minutes between games). It just seems to be everytime I watch foreigners play (that is not stephano, HUk, naniwa) that they make so many mistakes, and of similar level that I see at high masters. I would feel that full-time pros would have fixed these leaks by now, but they continue to play at a subpar level.
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
How do you know that. Have you asked other pros how many hours/day they practice. And if so, could you give specific exampless?
..... I don't want to say anything about other pros but I've seen Stephano practicing way more than all the ones I personally know. Also Stephano never stopped playing while every pro had several long or short breaks in the past 2 years.
On April 09 2012 18:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I think most of you overestimate how much pros practise. I also think its more important to be happy and healthy and just feel good in general, than to practise as much as humanly possible.
edit: This is talking about foreigners, koreans practise more in general.
You are right about that, but with that mindset some things in life just doesn't work out, and being a Starcraft progamer is one of them. You just have to pretty much drop everything in your life and dedicate all your time to practice and the game in general for being successful. You can't just play like 5 hours a day and live a "normal" life because it feels good for you, that won't make you win anything and it shows on every foreigner that isn't grinding this game all day everyday (the only exception would be Stephano?).
hahahaha you realize that you are talking to darkforce right? he IS a foreign pro, and with that mindset I would say he is pretty successful! he's shown that he can go toe to toe with koreans in a macro game.
Korean pros will do minimum 8 hours a day and the best of them will do far more (e.g. 12+ hours). This is the reason for the enormous gap between koreans and foreigners.
On April 09 2012 19:41 huehuehuehue wrote: I'm just wondering are there other players like Stephano who are really succesful without practicing that much?
stephano practices more than most pros in europe
How do you know that. Have you asked other pros how many hours/day they practice. And if so, could you give specific exampless?
When that is said, it doesn't surprise me that pros dont practice 8hours/day (efficient hours, meaning they dont chat for 5-10 minutes between games). It just seems to be everytime I watch foreigners play (that is not stephano, HUk, naniwa) that they make so many mistakes, and of similar level that I see at high masters. I would feel that full-time pros would have fixed these leaks by now, but they continue to play at a subpar level.
Being a known SC2 and BW players, I'm sure that ClouD is friends with almost all European pros. He could easily get the practice ties for everyone.
On April 09 2012 19:00 Slightly wrote: Stephano recently stated that he practices 8+ hours a day, although before he used to only practice 3 or 4. I believe it was on the SotG interview. I would imagine an 8 - 10 hour practice schedule would exist for most Korean teams and would involve a lot of the different aspects that have already been stated. Watching replays, strategy discussion, etc. For foreigners, there really isn't the same sort of responsibility. Not saying the players themselves are lazy but that without a regulating body to keep them on task and focused, I believe it very likely foreign pros not only much less, but also much less efficiently.
No, on the SOTG, he said that in Korea he was practicing 8+ hours a day because he had nothing else to do. He said, in that interview, that when in EU he practices 5-6 hours a day and when he was in school it was closer to three. Just last week though, in an interview with HotBid(? -- the TL guy), he said he practices closer to 3 hours a day and then if he's streaming and there are a lot of viewers he'll keep playing (typically for 5 or 6 hours), so go figure. (He said if you don't believe that he practices so little to ask Bling about his practice habits.) Prior to IPL he was practicing irregularly (not practicing on quite a few days) and playing not that long when he did practice - typically 10 to 20 games a day.
When he came back from Korea he definitely was playing his best Starcraft to date IMO so I think that even Stephano would benefit from playing 8-10 hours a day and even more importantly, playing against top competition.
If this was mentioned apologies, but I recall reading that Jaedong typically would practice around 13 hours a day and that Flash would practice up to 20 hours a day when he was preparing for a pro league match. Those are the sorts of practice habits that will make you great. Even with immense talent, you're not going to beat someone who's talented and who prepares both harder and smarter than you do. There are lots of famous examples of this sort of things happening -- Alekhine-Capablanca jumps immediately to mind.
During one of the boot camps last year, I think it was Red Bull Lan, we got to hear some complaints from other pro players about how White-Ra was trying to make them play atleast 40 games a day, and they thought it was too exhausting
In contrast, Naniwa said in an interview with hot_bid that Flash had been playing 60 games of sc2 per day when recovering from his surgery since he wasn't supposed to strain his wrist with broodwar.
Stephano mentions here on SotG in march that he practices 5-6 hours a day and I believe IdrA stated that the korean sc2 houses had a much more relaxed schedule than the bw houses, of "just" 8 hours a day,
On April 09 2012 22:35 Veclada wrote: Pros who say they don't practice much probably practice alot more than they say
This is very possible. Not everyone does this but some people, in order to inflate the importance of their accomplishments and lessen the importance of failures and shortcomings, will tend to understate how hard they work. This sort of thing happened in law school all of the time, at least where I went to school. People were always understating how much they studied for a test or how often they prepared for class even though it was clear, in some cases at least, that they had studied quite hard.
Similarly, if you want to undermine the significance of someone else's achievements, people will say that he or she just works harder than other people in a given field. (See Cloud's comments above about Stephano's praciticing more than most EU pros for example.)
On April 09 2012 16:04 zEnVy wrote: Hello there, I just have a pretty simple question.
How much on average, do you think a starcraft 2 pro player spends just playing games each day?
I only ask because I've adopted SC2 as my hobby, and when I'm not working my full time job or partying on the weekends I like to shut in and bang out some SC2 games. I'd like to dedicate a lot of time to this game and see where it takes me.
Just for fun, I played about 20 games today, and I would say the average game time is around 15 minutes or so (that's probably a little conservative), which means I played ~300 minutes or 5 hours.
Is this on par with what a pro player does? Or do I need to ramp it up even more?
its a full time job everyone who does not consider this as a job is stupid and anyone that considers himself as a pro gamer and has no job or school. and doesn't treats this as a full time job is just a lazy fuck and only abuses the fact that he is not working in a office with a boss behind him.
with that being said i think that you can answer your question by yourself.
All the top pros you see winning these tournaments lately have insane work ethic. People like Alive, MarineKing, MMA, etc all play a lot (at least 12+ hours a day). Even if they say they don't they really do, there's no way to get on the level of a champion without it.
There are foreigner pros who do train hard too. I guarantee IdrA and Huk put tons of hours into the game when they are in their zone (although it seems lately HuK has been missing some days). Some other foreign pros not so much though. I keep queing with Catz/Minigun when I play DotA 2. Aren't they sponsored to play SC2?
On April 10 2012 00:03 The_Darkness wrote: No, on the SOTG, he said that in Korea he was practicing 8+ hours a day because he had nothing else to do. He said, in that interview, that when in EU he practices 5-6 hours a day and when he was in school it was closer to three. Just last week though, in an interview with HotBid(? -- the TL guy), he said he practices closer to 3 hours a day and then if he's streaming and there are a lot of viewers he'll keep playing (typically for 5 or 6 hours), so go figure.
I strongly think a large part of their success is about how they train.
Just spending time doing something DOES NOT make you better (unless you really suck at it) ... you will have a natural limit that is nowhere near your real potential. The trick is getting the most out of your time to get you closer to it.
So I really think that 5 hours playing + 2-3 hours on practise would be FAR more productive.
Moreover you show me someone who is really working 10 hours a day everyday ill show you someone working far less than their best or someone who is about to burnout. 10 hours a day is stupid ... training is about directed intensity.
On April 10 2012 00:43 iYiYi wrote: All the top pros you see winning these tournaments lately have insane work ethic. People like Alive, MarineKing, MMA, etc all play a lot (at least 12+ hours a day). Even if they say they don't they really do, there's no way to get on the level of a champion without it.
There are foreigner pros who do train hard too. I guarantee IdrA and Huk put tons of hours into the game when they are in their zone (although it seems lately HuK has been missing some days). Some other foreign pros not so much though. I keep queing with Catz/Minigun when I play DotA 2. Aren't they sponsored to play SC2?
Catz and Minigun are semi pro at best now a days. I wouldn't be surprised to see if they switched over to a different game full time at some point or just stop playing professionally entirely. I mean really even when I think of pro foreigners catz and minigun barely come to mind.
I'm seeing this as a "how much do you study for school" question. We all know that people like to say they study much less then they actually do. I am 100% sure that stephano does a minimum of 8 hours a day. If you don't practice hard you just don't cut it vs the very best. Every korean that is doing well trains at least 8 hours a day. There is no one with so much talent that they can practice 4 hours a day.
Everything else that is being told is just a lie imo.
On April 10 2012 01:04 MrTortoise wrote: Lots of claims about korean practice sessions
where is the evidence?
I strongly think a large part of their success is about how they train.
Just spending time doing something DOES NOT make you better (unless you really suck at it) ... you will have a natural limit that is nowhere near your real potential. The trick is getting the most out of your time to get you closer to it.
So I really think that 5 hours playing + 2-3 hours on practise would be FAR more productive.
Moreover you show me someone who is really working 10 hours a day everyday ill show you someone working far less than their best or someone who is about to burnout. 10 hours a day is stupid ... training is about directed intensity.
You are wrong. The more games you play the more in-game situations you expose yourself to and the more times you have gotten yourself into X situations the better reaction you will have when you get into that situation again the next time. And by playing Starcraft you will NOT have a limit. Mechanics is something that you will never get perfect and by grinding 10-12 hours a day you improve your multitasking, mouse accuracy, screen switching, reflexes, unit movement better than someone that only play 5 hours. You think someone like Messi got sick ball control by just going to practice a few hours a week? No, it's from constantly playing football all day everyday and hard work.
There just is no shortcut to success, work hard and you will get results.
With Koreans taking most major foreign tournament prize money, there is not much hope for the development of serious foreign talent. If you're a foreign gamer, you can't outpractice the Koreans. And you likely don't have better practice partners. So what's the point in throwing away your life on this game?
I don't know why people keep saying Stephano practices 4h/day when he said himself that he practices a lot more (8h+). That was just when he still had school.
EPT
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