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On April 09 2012 04:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +the point is have you ever seen 2 or 3 battles going on in sc2? hardly most time its ball vs ball no flanking hardly any army split (1 army attacking 1 base and the other army defending the own base) comments like this show you dont watch enough SC2 to criticize it for what you think it doesn't have
possible plz send me links to VODS where i can see such actions
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On April 09 2012 05:30 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:25 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 05:24 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 05:23 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 05:23 Wildmoon wrote: Somehow I find TvT and TvZ in SC2 more fun than in BW. Why for tvt, siege lines. bio and mech are both available in tvt, which makes the game more interesting. Fair enough. Besides what's already come up, are there any TvT's in particular you'd recommend checking out. I think bio mech has been available for bw but it is rarely used in TvT although Sea pulled these bio mech strategy really well and I really wish all bw TvT games would incorporate bio and mech together despite tanks being pretty good at what they do . Sawamura I remember watching a Boxer game vod in which he did some I think bio mech with proxy raxing and than he walled off exits with supply depos and transitioned into tank contain.Do you know the game I mean,can you link me it or PM it I forgot where I found it zzzzzzz wanna see it again.I can't remember who it was against as well sigh.
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On April 09 2012 05:32 TaShadan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:the point is have you ever seen 2 or 3 battles going on in sc2? hardly most time its ball vs ball no flanking hardly any army split (1 army attacking 1 base and the other army defending the own base) comments like this show you dont watch enough SC2 to criticize it for what you think it doesn't have possible plz send me links to VODS where i can see such actions
HUZZAH!
A response in the spirit of the thread.
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Yeah, there's no helping you. Your post is nothing more than a bunch of "I'm not trying to say SC2 is a shitty game, but it is because of these reasons from a year and a half ago." If you've seriously seen every Day9 daily then you've seen SC2 strategy evolve from the one-base cheeses and pushes into what it is today. And if you can't at least appreciate that level of evolution in about two years then I can't help you.
As far as the "battles are too fast," that's like criticizing American Football for having short bursts of plays (the actual downs) followed by pauses (1st down finished, wait to set up 2nd down, 2nd down finished, wait to set up 3rd down). You're just going to have to accept it as a part of the game. I can't make you accept it.
And if you refuse to look for good micro then you're not going to find it. I know you dismissed it, but MKP marine micro is godly, HuK blink micro, and DRG's control are all good examples.
You're looking for 12 years of refinement in a 2 year old game I think. And if you're not, then I don't know what you want. It honestly sounds like a thinly veiled bitch post about SC2 that I'm surprised the mods haven't closed yet for being troll bait.
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and good thing about SC2 is in SC2 unit composition is somewhat more open than in BW.
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Honestly I don't think you're going to get much out of the responses in this thread, even tho your post is very well done and explains the differences of what makes BW exciting for you while not bashing it. But the fan boys can't see through that, sadly.
I agree with you completely, I been a fan of BW since 2000 and i've had my times where i don't really pay too much attention to the scene but I've seen a slow and gradual evolution in the game. SC2 is not going down that path, we won't get slower games with more strategic fights cause SC2 is all Ball vs Ball, sadly. People who think Hots or Legacy will bring that, you're delusional, BW isn't like that cause the game "got figured out" no it was cause the game had different mechanics and a slower pace 4-5 new units from the new expansions won't change that. It will still be mass of stalkers with colossus vs MMM. Unless Blizz does some drastic changes to the game, SC2 will be SC2 and not a clone of BW.
I'm not bashing, I am just as disappointed as any other BW fan about this. I watched GSL ever since it started but around september it got boring for me, so i started watching Pro league again and omg it was so exciting again >.< I couldn't believe it, it was great. All these differences that weren't obvious to me before, are now, which is pretty much what the OP said. I have no idea why I didn't noticed before and there was nothing wrong with SC2, but after I noticed all those details it did become a lot less entertaining.
Something I do miss dearly is all those BW Highlight videos, those were so awesome and such a great display of skill of the players. Those don't exist in SC2, why? cause there is nothing particularly skilful about micro in SC2, any pro or semi pro can do those things, so there is no :O shock factor about seeing some sick micro like it was in BW where only a handful of people could pull it off. Anyone who likes BW and watches BW will understand what I'm talking about, if you haven't i suggest you go check out a few games, they are great fun to watch. Don't just tell me I'm bashing your favourite game just to bash it, if you don't understand BW plz just don't.
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On April 09 2012 04:56 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:51 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote: 6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? all units require good control to maximize their benefit. saying that you can just 1a everything and get maximum benefit from units is just stupid. i played bw since 1998, and all of the blizzard games before then. it was a great game. You misunderstood me. I'm not saying the rest of the units don't shine with good control. They do. But a Blink upgrade or good Force Field control can really turn the tide of battle. The ability and the upgrade takes those units and elavates them way more then their main intended combat use. Day9 explained this it nicely in a daily with values etc. If your opponent has 50 marines and you have 50 banelings it doesn't really matter how much you split. Yes I've seen Foxer, now MKP split insanely and it's nice to watch, but I've seen countless many games where banelings just crash in and Marines fall like dominos. Alternatively, it doesn't matter what you can do with say, Marines versus Fungal Growth. You get Fungalled and you die. That's it. Forcefield is kinda the same, but it is way harder (still not insanely harder) to pull of than a fungal. When Z attacks you with 40 roaches at 12min and when you are only 120 supply as Protoss, those FF need to be really good so that you can survive. And when that's pulled off, that is amazing. There aren't many things like this in SC2. Then again these are my opinions and people are free to believe what they want.
Yeah it's a little hard to understand why a more expensive unit (baneling) which is a heavy to counters the marine, actually counters the marine. And you'll will be so much more cost effective anyways with your micro.
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The problem with threads like this is that almost everyone whiteknighting SC2 have barely watched any BW, and anyone going on about how awesome BW is has probably barely watched any SC2.
BW players will hate SC2 for as long as they expect it to be "BW with better graphics", and not settle for anything different. They are simply not comparable at the current time. They are different games.
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imo the best example's of bw-style play in sc2 all come from korean terrans who were famous from brood war. although they might not be the best their games seem much more thought out from start to finish than the "new" starcraft players. an example would be forgg. he streams a lot and while he mostly cheeses, he always has solid transitions back into normal play and his unit composition and positioning just seem...more intelligent somehow than other terrans.
so myabe the problem isnt sc2, its the current mentality of the people who play sc2
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On April 09 2012 05:30 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:26 Micket wrote:On April 09 2012 05:21 Wildmoon wrote:On April 09 2012 05:19 Micket wrote: I don't know why but even the a move units in brood war aren't boring to watch. Mass roach vs protoss is the most bland strategy ever and literally looks like a move fest. Mass hydra vs protoss in BW is also quite boring, but still tiers above the boringness that is mass roach. I don't know why tbh, maybe its the unit size, unit movement, the graphics, something.
This is pure nostalgia. What if I told you that I only started watching BW after sc2 came out. Then maybe you're just pretentious? You said it yourself, you can't even rationalize your opinion. Perhaps, but I don't have an ulterior motive in my opinion, just simply making an observation. I'm simply saying that the equivalence of the blandest unit in Sc2, is borderline not snoozefest in BW.
I would say that marines are sexier in sc2 though, although that is because of there are more ways to micro them.
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On April 09 2012 05:32 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:30 Sawamura wrote:On April 09 2012 05:25 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 05:24 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 05:23 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 05:23 Wildmoon wrote: Somehow I find TvT and TvZ in SC2 more fun than in BW. Why for tvt, siege lines. bio and mech are both available in tvt, which makes the game more interesting. Fair enough. Besides what's already come up, are there any TvT's in particular you'd recommend checking out. I think bio mech has been available for bw but it is rarely used in TvT although Sea pulled these bio mech strategy really well and I really wish all bw TvT games would incorporate bio and mech together despite tanks being pretty good at what they do . Sawamura I remember watching a Boxer game vod in which he did some I think bio mech with proxy raxing and than he walled off exits with supply depos and transitioned into tank contain.Do you know the game I mean,can you link me it or PM it I forgot where I found it zzzzzzz wanna see it again.
oh it was boxer v hiya
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 09 2012 05:34 Mauldo wrote: Yeah, there's no helping you. Your post is nothing more than a bunch of "I'm not trying to say SC2 is a shitty game, but it is because of these reasons from a year and a half ago." If you've seriously seen every Day9 daily then you've seen SC2 strategy evolve from the one-base cheeses and pushes into what it is today. And if you can't at least appreciate that level of evolution in about two years then I can't help you.
As far as the "battles are too fast," that's like criticizing American Football for having short bursts of plays (the actual downs) followed by pauses (1st down finished, wait to set up 2nd down, 2nd down finished, wait to set up 3rd down). You're just going to have to accept it as a part of the game. I can't make you accept it.
And if you refuse to look for good micro then you're not going to find it. I know you dismissed it, but MKP marine micro is godly, HuK blink micro, and DRG's control are all good examples.
You're looking for 12 years of refinement in a 2 year old game I think. And if you're not, then I don't know what you want. It honestly sounds like a thinly veiled bitch post about SC2 that I'm surprised the mods haven't closed yet for being troll bait.
I haven't seen every daily, just most.
And you're right, i have seen the game evolve. I just still don't enjoy it as much as BW in spite of that evolution.
It's not that i don't look for good micro, it's that i don't see it. Tell me what to look for, and cite games.
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On April 09 2012 05:36 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:32 TheKefka wrote:On April 09 2012 05:30 Sawamura wrote:On April 09 2012 05:25 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 05:24 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 05:23 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 05:23 Wildmoon wrote: Somehow I find TvT and TvZ in SC2 more fun than in BW. Why for tvt, siege lines. bio and mech are both available in tvt, which makes the game more interesting. Fair enough. Besides what's already come up, are there any TvT's in particular you'd recommend checking out. I think bio mech has been available for bw but it is rarely used in TvT although Sea pulled these bio mech strategy really well and I really wish all bw TvT games would incorporate bio and mech together despite tanks being pretty good at what they do . Sawamura I remember watching a Boxer game vod in which he did some I think bio mech with proxy raxing and than he walled off exits with supply depos and transitioned into tank contain.Do you know the game I mean,can you link me it or PM it I forgot where I found it zzzzzzz wanna see it again. oh it was boxer v hiya + Show Spoiler + Hahah yea that's the one thanks^^
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On April 09 2012 05:28 antiRW wrote: Many people have said it already, but as someone who previously watched and played SC:BW and now watches and plays SC2, I have to stress that I think your first point, "lack of strategy", is simply not true. It might have been more true months ago, when the game seemed to be a lot more rock-paper-scissors-based and strategies as well as game understanding was not as developed. I am not really sure how to convince you on this point thought. But as an example, take your description of the recent Fantasy vs Flash game. You will find similar early push into containment into timely retread vs tech into map positioning etc. scenarios in many high level TvTs, PvPs and to some extent in PvTs. One thing that (I think) is really still lacking in SC2 is commentators pointing out these things correctly. Some do a good job at this, but many will not commentate on the crucial strategic decisions happening in the background. I often find myself thinking and/or appreciating things that I would not understand if i was not playing the game myself.
Your points 2) and 3) I feel are somewhat valid. But SC2 seems to be improving on both fronts as time goes by as well. The rather boring no action into 200vs200 army battle-style games are much less common now. The overall easier macro in SC2 and the higher rate of unit production/larger armies probably reduce the effects of micro of individual units. The make the overall army positioning extremely important though, and don't away from the fact that high APM will increase your skill and the effectiveness of your army.
Again, if you think it's untrue, i would appreciate VODS. Remember, i want to be wrong. [/QUOTE]
I know you said that you want to "be wrong" and I do not think I have implied otherwise. In my opinion one finds the same kind of strategy in SC2 that you described in BW. Maybe I just don't fully understand what you think is missing. Thus I am not sure what kind of games to use as examples. Maybe the MMA vs MVP GSL finals? MMA designed his aggressive and versatile overall game strategy to specifically counter MVPs play. Or Kiwikaki vs Stephano on Shattered Temple - not sure from which tournament - where Kiwikaki uses the mobility granted by mothership vortex to control Stephano's economy with hit-and-run tactics until he is ready for the final push (even though I hate how this game concludes).
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On April 09 2012 05:03 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:02 WArped wrote:On April 09 2012 04:55 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:53 WArped wrote: Did you see the GSTL final game between MKP and Parting last night? Did you watch the GSL finals last season and the season before that? The finals at Blizzcon and the final between Mvp and MMA? Every season of the GSL Code S you find great games between top players that are back and forth, nail biting and extremely close. The GSTL has some great series' that are also very back and forth, have well calculated cheese and close defensive games with great come-backs. I am also a fan of BW but I have never even thought of comparing the two because they are very different. Trust me, I've seen very boring games of broodwar and games that you find play that is just very lackluster. There are more games of SC2 to watch so of course you will find unexciting games from time to time. I haven't seen those games, and I'm hesitant to pay to watch SC2 at this point. Are there any other games you would recommend? The Blizzard Cup final, GSL May Semi final between sCfou and NesTea and the GSTL May final between SlayerS and Mvp. DRG vs MMA game 7 in their final...
The whole series is epic and it defines what the OP is looking for.
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MKP vs Parting, regame yesterday. MKP fights a templar heavy protoss without ghosts, his splitting and movement is insane.
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On April 09 2012 05:36 MCXD wrote: The problem with threads like this is that almost everyone whiteknighting SC2 have barely watched any BW, and anyone going on about how awesome BW is have barely watched any SC2.
BW players will hate SC2 for as long as they expect it to be "BW with better graphics", and not settle for anything different. They are simply not comparable at the current time. They are different games.
Though I will say that the BW community is heck of a lot better than the SC2 community. All you have to do is compare the IPL/GSL LR threads to the OSL/SPL LR threads.
This is an excellent post, up until the third paragraph. Why bring such a point up in here? Is your assumption that he does not enjoy SC2 as much because of the community. If that is not your argument, then let us try not to start a BW vs SC2 community discussion in here (whether or not your are right).
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Wait, so OP doesn't like SC2, and he wants us to change his mind by posting VOD's of pros playing really well? Is that it?
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On April 09 2012 05:43 mynameisgreat11 wrote: Wait, so OP doesn't like SC2, and he wants us to change his mind by posting VOD's of pros playing really well? Is that it?
And claims it is NOT his intent to create a SC2 vs. BW thread, yes.
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just because bw is better than sc2 doesn't mean sc2 is a bad game.
they both are really good games. just one is considered by a lot of rts fans to be better than the other. nothing wrong with that.
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