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On April 09 2012 05:43 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Wait, so OP doesn't like SC2, and he wants us to change his mind by posting VOD's of pros playing really well? Is that it?
OP doesn't like SC2 half as much he likes BW. He discusses why he feels this way, and is asking for VODs that demonstrate things he feels are missing in SC2 are in fact there.
So essentially, yes.
EDIT - Also, emphasis on wanting to have my mind changed. It's not a challenge, it's a request.
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Actually, I've just thought of something. Just watch the Koreans play and not the NA players or Europeans. EU players just sit and turtle (or 2 base all in), send blobs in and the game is over. NA players are just slightly worse versions of the EU players (but some have funky styles if you are in to that). The koreans (especially T) are the true entertainers of starcraft 2.
Personally, I find EU and NA players entertaining to watch as well, but I'm probably more easily pleased that you are.
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Don't watch it then.
You say yourself that just as sports use a similar shaped ball it isn't the same sport and different spectators like it for different reasons.
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On April 09 2012 05:46 MVTaylor wrote:
Don't watch it then.
You say yourself that just as sports use a similar shaped ball it isn't the same sport and different spectators like it for different reasons.
With BW on the outs, i'd like to be able to watch SC2 and have a good time. If i didn't, i wouldn't have posted.
On April 09 2012 05:44 HorsemasterK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:43 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Wait, so OP doesn't like SC2, and he wants us to change his mind by posting VOD's of pros playing really well? Is that it? And claims it is NOT his intent to create a SC2 vs. BW thread, yes.
And we've more or less managed to do so for 8 pages now. When you keep things civil you can have good discussions, even on the internet.
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No amount of VODs is going to change anyone's mind.
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The Light vs Tempest game is bad example... stalker vs marine is pretty much the same.
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On April 09 2012 05:43 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Wait, so OP doesn't like SC2, and he wants us to change his mind by posting VOD's of pros playing really well? Is that it?
Basically. Terrible thread.
They're both great games, and each of them have their own positives & negatives.
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On April 09 2012 05:48 EndOfTime88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:43 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Wait, so OP doesn't like SC2, and he wants us to change his mind by posting VOD's of pros playing really well? Is that it? Basically. Terrible thread. They're both great games, and each of them have their own positives & negatives.
Well then, what positives of SC2 do you feel i am not appreciating?
On April 09 2012 05:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
No amount of VODs is going to change anyone's mind.
I'm pretty sure there's at least one person out there who didn't want to watch SC2 till a friend showed them vods. I want my mind to be changed, give it a go.
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You're being very polite but if you don't like SC2 nobody is going to say anything that will convince you otherwise. Play and watch it more if you want to give it more of a chance.
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On April 09 2012 05:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
You're being very polite but if you don't like SC2 nobody is going to say anything that will convince you otherwise. Play and watch it more if you want to give it more of a chance.
I'm not interested in playing it, and I've watched it since it came out. And again, it's not that i don't like SC2, only that i like it much less than i like BW. I'm open to the possibility that i may not be fully appreciating the game, and am asking people to help me do so.
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The OP just seems like a veiled attempt to bring down SC2 and bait SC2 fans into arguments that the OP feels he can win. The reasons he gives that he doesn't like SC2 are inherent in SC2's game design and there's obviously no changing or disputing it. For example there's obviously no way to convince the OP that SC2 has more micro than BW, and he knows that. For him to demand that we provide SC2 VODs that refute his arguments is just him saying "na na, you can't do it." If the OP has been watching SC2 since early beta, and even has watched most Dailies, he clearly is familiar with all the BW vs SC2 arguments and talking points. There are no arguments that are going to come up in this thread that haven't already been discussed ad nauseum on TL.
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On April 09 2012 05:35 Gobe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:56 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:51 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? all units require good control to maximize their benefit. saying that you can just 1a everything and get maximum benefit from units is just stupid. i played bw since 1998, and all of the blizzard games before then. it was a great game. You misunderstood me. I'm not saying the rest of the units don't shine with good control. They do. But a Blink upgrade or good Force Field control can really turn the tide of battle. The ability and the upgrade takes those units and elavates them way more then their main intended combat use. Day9 explained this it nicely in a daily with values etc. If your opponent has 50 marines and you have 50 banelings it doesn't really matter how much you split. Yes I've seen Foxer, now MKP split insanely and it's nice to watch, but I've seen countless many games where banelings just crash in and Marines fall like dominos. Alternatively, it doesn't matter what you can do with say, Marines versus Fungal Growth. You get Fungalled and you die. That's it. Forcefield is kinda the same, but it is way harder (still not insanely harder) to pull of than a fungal. When Z attacks you with 40 roaches at 12min and when you are only 120 supply as Protoss, those FF need to be really good so that you can survive. And when that's pulled off, that is amazing. There aren't many things like this in SC2. Then again these are my opinions and people are free to believe what they want. Yeah it's a little hard to understand why a more expensive unit (baneling) which is a heavy to counters the marine, actually counters the marine. And you'll will be so much more cost effective anyways with your micro.
But there are so many of these situations in SC2 where it feels like "Oh okay, so he's made that unit and I don't have X, I'm most likely dead OR my units will be useless against that unit". Immortal vs armored, Marauder vs armored, Colossus versus pretty much anything on ground, Thors against Mutalisks, Blue flame hellions against lings etc. the list goes on you get the idea. So much rock, paper, scissors.
For example Irradiate, a spell cast from a flying spellcaster unit of Terran in BW is the Muta killer (since Zerg players clump their Mutalisks to the maximum to attack in the most efficient and safe way as possible) One Irradiate and the clump takes a lot of damage, BUT, a good Zerg player will remove the affected Mutalisk from the group before the whole stack is doomed and continue with the harrass.
You got caught clumped against a couple Thors? You lose that Mutalisk pack and there's nothing you can do but preemptively spit the unit, which makes it more vulnerable to a thousand many things and is boring to watch. It is beautiful to watch great Mutalisk control in BW, a cloud of mutalisks clumped on a single point darting in and out, spewing destruction on anything they can bite.
A couple of spider mines can kill probably something like 20 Zerglings in one shot (perhaps even more, not that knowledable about the rate of stacking of Zerglings in a close bunch, have to check) BUT, Zerg player can bring an overlord to spot them and pick them off with Hydralisks.
Lurkers decimate Marines. It's even worse than Banelings, it's basically a Baneling launcher attacking in a straight line, but it stays where it is and keeps attacking instead of dying when it does its thing. BUT, Terran players can scan, bring a Science Vessel for detection, and try their luck with better splitting.
It is this dynamic "This can hurt but maybe I can get around it with this if I control well" is what makes BW really good to watch. By comparison, if you get caught against a big bunch of blue flame hellions with zerglings, unless you outnumber them heavily, there's almost nothing you can do. Those Zerglings will die. You either need roaches (brings us back to rock-paper-scissors), something flying, or Spine Crawlers (or Ultralisks  ) Spine crawlers are immobile, and if you don't already have Mutalisks, you can't do shit with just ling/bling.
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I've always felt that bw is substantially better to watch while sc2 is a lot more fun to play. Most bw games have me on the edge of my seat from start to finish. Very few sc2 matches have put me on the edge of my seat, and when they have its just for a few moments. There aren't that many magical moments in sc2 right now but I have high hopes that Blizzard will improve on this in future expansions. My biggest beef with sc2 is the unit clumping, I will never approve of it. It's one of the many reasons bw is substantially better to watch as a spectator. I agree with the sentiments of the OP, well written.
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On April 09 2012 05:51 Doodsmack wrote:
The OP just seems like a veiled attempt to bring down SC2 and bait SC2 fans into arguments that the OP feels he can win. The reasons he gives that he doesn't like SC2 are inherent in SC2's game design and there's obviously no changing or disputing it. For example there's obviously no way to convince the OP that SC2 has more micro than BW, and he knows that. For him to demand that we provide SC2 VODs that refute his arguments is just him saying "na na, you can't do it." There are no arguments that are going to come up in this thread that haven't already been discussed ad nauseum on TL.
Do you honestly think I'd put this much effort into a thinly veiled trolling attempt? Trust me, i have better things to do with my life than annoy people on the internet.
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On April 09 2012 05:53 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:51 Doodsmack wrote:
The OP just seems like a veiled attempt to bring down SC2 and bait SC2 fans into arguments that the OP feels he can win. The reasons he gives that he doesn't like SC2 are inherent in SC2's game design and there's obviously no changing or disputing it. For example there's obviously no way to convince the OP that SC2 has more micro than BW, and he knows that. For him to demand that we provide SC2 VODs that refute his arguments is just him saying "na na, you can't do it." There are no arguments that are going to come up in this thread that haven't already been discussed ad nauseum on TL. Do you honestly think I'd put this much effort into a thinly veiled trolling attempt? Trust me, i have better things to do with my life than annoy people on the internet.
I don't believe you.
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I honestly believe as it is, the spectator value of SC2 is exponentially smaller than BW. I have become so bored with watching SC2 I don't even bother checking up on games anymore unless there's a particular player or team I want to see play.
The game itself barely attracts my attention anymore.
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On April 09 2012 05:55 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:53 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 05:51 Doodsmack wrote:
The OP just seems like a veiled attempt to bring down SC2 and bait SC2 fans into arguments that the OP feels he can win. The reasons he gives that he doesn't like SC2 are inherent in SC2's game design and there's obviously no changing or disputing it. For example there's obviously no way to convince the OP that SC2 has more micro than BW, and he knows that. For him to demand that we provide SC2 VODs that refute his arguments is just him saying "na na, you can't do it." There are no arguments that are going to come up in this thread that haven't already been discussed ad nauseum on TL. Do you honestly think I'd put this much effort into a thinly veiled trolling attempt? Trust me, i have better things to do with my life than annoy people on the internet. I don't believe you.
Why
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look at nestea vs stephano on ipl u will see micro
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On April 09 2012 04:54 TaShadan wrote:
@zuor
you seem to care cause you replied
Well, if I wasn't clear enough: I don't. Stay in the BW section please, no one is interested in your stupid, ignorant comments here.
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On April 09 2012 05:57 Acertos wrote:
look at nestea vs stephano on ipl u will see micro
I have it on, but for now I'm more focused on trying to keep the discussion in this thread civil. So far, by continuously posting polite comments I've kept things productive, but i suspect that if i stop things will go downhill. I've gotten some good recommendations so far, and I want to keep them coming.
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EPT
