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On April 09 2012 04:57 DeepElemBlues wrote:
SC2 units that benefit from positioning and control: all of them.
examples would be zergling surrounds, blink micro, splitting marines, getting a concave with ranged units, burrowed banelings, mutalisk control, siege tank positioning, moving roaches right beside enemy units so you dont have half your roaches milling around doing nothing behind the front line, flanks in ZvT and TvT, keeping broodlords over high ground wherever possible, etc.
These are just examples of general unit control and positioning. I'm talking about upgrades or ways of control that takes a unit's value and multiplies it. Blink as I've said, as an upgrade, is a good example. Good blink usage could get you out of situations with victory, where you would die to roaches on open ground without it. I'm not talking about general unit control, what you are saying is basic RTS play and most of them are common sense.
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On April 09 2012 05:02 WArped wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:55 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:53 WArped wrote:
Did you see the GSTL final game between MKP and Parting last night? Did you watch the GSL finals last season and the season before that? The finals at Blizzcon and the final between Mvp and MMA? Every season of the GSL Code S you find great games between top players that are back and forth, nail biting and extremely close. The GSTL has some great series' that are also very back and forth, have well calculated cheese and close defensive games with great come-backs. I am also a fan of BW but I have never even thought of comparing the two because they are very different. Trust me, I've seen very boring games of broodwar and games that you find play that is just very lackluster. There are more games of SC2 to watch so of course you will find unexciting games from time to time. I haven't seen those games, and I'm hesitant to pay to watch SC2 at this point. Are there any other games you would recommend? The Blizzard Cup final, GSL May Semi final between sCfou and NesTea and the GSTL May final between SlayerS and Mvp.
DRG vs MMA game 7 in their final...
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This is going to end the same way as all the other posts. BW is not the same game as sc2. If you're trying to enjoy sc2, stop comparing them using such umbrella terms. Let me sum up your post for you:
I want to enjoy sc2, but I feel bw is the better game because sc2 1) lacks strategy 2) the battle are too fast 3) lacks micro
If you wanted someone to persuade you, you wouldn't have created so many examples with vods in your post. You sound like you're looking for an argument in areas that can't be argued. Micro is more important in bw than sc2. I can't think of anyone who disagrees with that. So what are you looking for? You ended your post with "please, try to prove me wrong by addressing these points that sc2 lacks" rather than "please, tell me what you guys find exciting in sc2" There are 0 vod links or mentions of games you find entertaining or things you like from the game.
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On April 09 2012 05:03 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:02 WArped wrote:On April 09 2012 04:55 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:53 WArped wrote:
Did you see the GSTL final game between MKP and Parting last night? Did you watch the GSL finals last season and the season before that? The finals at Blizzcon and the final between Mvp and MMA? Every season of the GSL Code S you find great games between top players that are back and forth, nail biting and extremely close. The GSTL has some great series' that are also very back and forth, have well calculated cheese and close defensive games with great come-backs. I am also a fan of BW but I have never even thought of comparing the two because they are very different. Trust me, I've seen very boring games of broodwar and games that you find play that is just very lackluster. There are more games of SC2 to watch so of course you will find unexciting games from time to time. I haven't seen those games, and I'm hesitant to pay to watch SC2 at this point. Are there any other games you would recommend? The Blizzard Cup final, GSL May Semi final between sCfou and NesTea and the GSTL May final between SlayerS and Mvp. DRG vs MMA game 7 in their final...
Thank you, i will check those out.
On April 09 2012 05:03 phiinix wrote:
This is going to end the same way as all the other posts. BW is not the same game as sc2. If you're trying to enjoy sc2, stop comparing them using such umbrella terms. Let me sum up your post for you:
I want to enjoy sc2, but I feel bw is the better game because sc2 1) lacks strategy 2) the battle are too fast 3) lacks micro
If you wanted someone to persuade you, you wouldn't have created so many examples with vods in your post. You sound like you're looking for an argument in areas that can't be argued. Micro is more important in bw than sc2. I can't think of anyone who disagrees with that. So what are you looking for? You ended your post with "please, try to prove me wrong by addressing these points that sc2 lacks" rather than "please, tell me what you guys find exciting in sc2" There are 0 vod links or mentions of games you find entertaining or things you like from the game.
Why do you doubt my claim that i want to be persuaded to watch SC2? Why would i have kept watching Sc2 casually or spend several hours writing this post if i didn't? And of course i don't link vods of SC2, thats the point of the thread.
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Sincerely, after watching the proleague finals and most of the IPL tournament, i'm certain SC2 will never have the deepness of Broodwar. There's no better game tha BW, sadly, it is what it is. Kespa is dropping BW, and the only game in RTS town is SC2.
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Only thing I can recommend you is that you should open yourself to SC2 and don't assume that if it's not 100% the same as BW it won't be fun. I myself was casual BW follower before and now I enjoy SC2 very much.
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On April 09 2012 05:04 legaton wrote:
Sincerely, after watching the proleague finals and most of the IPL tournament, i'm certain SC2 will never have the deepness of Broodwar. There's no better game tha BW, sadly, it is what it is. Kespa is dropping BW, and the only game in RTS town is SC2.
You realize that there are 2 expansions and about 8 years time to go before it is even fair to make that comment right 
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On April 09 2012 05:02 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:58 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:56 TheKefka wrote:On April 09 2012 04:49 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? Please for the love of God don't do this. Nothing will ruin this thread faster than turning it into a SC2 v BW debate, which is exactly the opposite of what i intended. K guy listen.You want help to appreciate sc2 so you made a post saying what attracts you about BW and what is missing in sc2 for you to understand and enjoy it.So you started a SC2 vs BW debate yourself. Here's my simple advice: Go here http://www.ign.com/ipl/tv?screens=ignproleague(twitch),ignproleague2(twitch)&f=starcraft-2If after watching this tournament till the end you feel bored than its highly probable that you don't like the game of sc2 and there is nothing wrong about it.You aren't obligated to like lol.There are plenty of games and sports out there that can peak your interest and deserve your attention,If you looking for what BW gave you in sc2 than I'm sorry to inform you but it won't happen.The things that happened today at the PL finals and the level of intensity is long away from being achievable in sc2 if ever. 1) Like i at the beginning of the post, i didn't do this to start a debate, only to provide a basis for discussion. 2) Like i said in the middle of the post, i had IPL on when i was writing it, and it's still on right now. I know but what discussion?Its about what you as individual like,no one can make you like apples if you like oranges more instead.If something interests you just go with it and don't try to overthink.No one gave you a motivational speech about why you should watch BW,you just liked the game and started watching it no?Do the same thing here.
Exactly what I was trying to say, just a lot more well-written lol.
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These are just examples of general unit control and positioning. I'm talking about upgrades or ways of control that takes a unit's value and multiplies it. Blink as I've said, as an upgrade, is a good example. Good blink usage could get you out of situations with victory, where you would die to roaches on open ground without it. I'm not talking about general unit control, what you are saying is basic RTS play and most of them are common sense.
well if you want examples and then dismiss the examples based on specious reasoning please don't even ask for them
if you honestly think the examples i gave dont multiply a unit's value then you're incapable on a different level of having this discussion, but the level you're on is trash SC2 at all cost
people like you are why it is impossible to have this kind of discussion
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Kind of stating the obvious here, but maybe SC2 isn't the right game for you. Plain and simple.
And you shouldn't wait for balanced and serious discussion when your first point is:
Lack of Strategy – When I say “lack,” I mean relative to BW.
Doesn't mean I can't understand the general direction you're coming from, but there is a reason why threads about religion are practically banned on TL. And this here has a nice religious touch.
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SC2 still hasn't got xpac yet too. Imagine SC1 without medic,lurker,dt.
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try watching grubby's stream, expecially his pvts. people talk about how sc2 is all just massing a big army and going out to fight the other big army at the end of the game but grubby has shown that this doesnt have to be standard. a lot of time's he'll fly in a warp rpism, warp in 2-4 hts to make archons and a wave of zealots and assualt an expansion, meanwhile hes's on the other side of the map harassing with dts and poking with his remaining army at the front trying to find a weak spot once the terran has split their army to deal with all the harassment
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On April 09 2012 05:06 hegeo wrote:Kind of stating the obvious here, but maybe SC2 isn't the right game for you. Plain and simple. And you shouldn't wait for balanced and serious discussion when your first point is: Doesn't mean I can't understand the general direction you're coming from, but there is a reason why threads about religion are practically banned on TL. And this here has a nice religious touch.
You're right, it might not be the game for me. The point of this thread is to give it an honest shot.
Also, did you read how i defined strategy? I'm talking about things like maneuver and space control that i don't see as much in SC2.
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Honestly I'm in the same boat. Except I enjoy watching SC2 more than I enjoy watching BW (As I never watched professional BW before SC2 came out) and the game I'm trying to enjoy watching more (at all) is LoL. So I feel your pain.
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Starcraft 2 Pros aren't as good at Starcraft 2 as Brood War Pros are at Brood War.
This is mainly due to the fact that SC2 hasn't been around as long as Brood War, which means
- The game hasn't been balanced as well
- The players haven't had as long to practice/learn the game
When new generations of BW players turn up, they learn from the previous generation.
This is pretty much the first generation of SC2 players, so they're finding everything out from scratch.
Strategies and tactics will evolve.
You either like how SC2 is played, or you don't. It's not a "comparision with Brood War". They are essentially different games. You either like SC2 as a game or you don't. If you do, then great. Stick around. If you don't then that's just too bad, there are other games to enjoy.
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O and btw thanks for that Light vs Tempest video link I never saw that game lol so great.
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On April 09 2012 05:08 Gowerly wrote:
Starcraft 2 Pros aren't as good at Starcraft 2 as Brood War Pros are at Brood War.
This is mainly due to the fact that SC2 hasn't been around as long as Brood War, which means
- The game hasn't been balanced as well
- The players haven't had as long to practice/learn the game
When new generations of BW players turn up, they learn from the previous generation.
This is pretty much the first generation of SC2 players, so they're finding everything out from scratch.
Strategies and tactics will evolve.
You either like how SC2 is played, or you don't. It's not a "comparision with Brood War". They are essentially different games. You either like SC2 as a game or you don't. If you do, then great. Stick around. If you don't then that's just too bad, there are other games to enjoy.
Again, it's not an issue of liking it or not. It's me trying to like it more, to see depth i currently don't notice, and asking you guys to help me do so.
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It's a good post, I think a lot of people will agree with most of your points. But I think I could sum up the general response with 'we know, we've known since just after the beta, we wish something could be done about it, we hope blizzard will listen, but we still love sc2.'
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On April 09 2012 05:08 Gowerly wrote:
Starcraft 2 Pros aren't as good at Starcraft 2 as Brood War Pros are at Brood War.
This is mainly due to the fact that SC2 hasn't been around as long as Brood War, which means
- The game hasn't been balanced as well
- The players haven't had as long to practice/learn the game
When new generations of BW players turn up, they learn from the previous generation.
This is pretty much the first generation of SC2 players, so they're finding everything out from scratch.
Strategies and tactics will evolve.
You either like how SC2 is played, or you don't. It's not a "comparision with Brood War". They are essentially different games. You either like SC2 as a game or you don't. If you do, then great. Stick around. If you don't then that's just too bad, there are other games to enjoy.
further to this. watching sc2 evolve from mostly one based, shitty play to what it has become today is just amazing to see. you are watching "strategy" evolve rather than seeing a polished product like sc:bw.
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Balls?
no problem, see MarineKing's games against curious in gstl final and ipl4 against stephanos.
+ Show Spoiler +but non korean terrans suck
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EPT
