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On April 09 2012 04:49 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? Please for the love of God don't do this. Nothing will ruin this thread faster than turning it into a SC2 v BW debate, which is exactly the opposite of what i intended.
K guy listen.You want help to appreciate sc2 so you made a post saying what attracts you about BW and what is missing in sc2 for you to understand and enjoy it.So you started a SC2 vs BW debate yourself.
Here's my simple advice:
Go here http://www.ign.com/ipl/tv?screens=ignproleague(twitch),ignproleague2(twitch)&f=starcraft-2
If after watching this tournament till the end you feel bored than its highly probable that you don't like the game of sc2 and there is nothing wrong about it.You aren't obligated to like it lol.There are plenty of games and sports out there that can peak your interest and deserve your attention,If you'r looking for what BW gave you in sc2 than I'm sorry to inform you but it won't happen.The things that happened today at the PL finals and the level of intensity is long away from being achievable in sc2 if ever.
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On April 09 2012 04:51 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? all units require good control to maximize their benefit. saying that you can just 1a everything and get maximum benefit from units is just stupid. i played bw since 1998, and all of the blizzard games before then. it was a great game.
You misunderstood me. I'm not saying the rest of the units don't shine with good control. They do. But a Blink upgrade or good Force Field control can really turn the tide of battle. The ability and the upgrade takes those units and elavates them way more then their main intended combat use. Day9 explained this it nicely in a daily with values etc.
If your opponent has 50 marines and you have 50 banelings it doesn't really matter how much you split. Yes I've seen Foxer, now MKP split insanely and it's nice to watch, but I've seen countless many games where banelings just crash in and Marines fall like dominos. Alternatively, it doesn't matter what you can do with say, Marines versus Fungal Growth. You get Fungalled and you die. That's it. Forcefield is kinda the same, but it is way harder (still not insanely harder) to pull of than a fungal. When Z attacks you with 40 roaches at 12min and when you are only 120 supply as Protoss, those FF need to be really good so that you can survive. And when that's pulled off, that is amazing. There aren't many things like this in SC2.
Then again these are my opinions and people are free to believe what they want.
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SC2 units that benefit from positioning and control: all of them.
examples would be zergling surrounds, blink micro, splitting marines, getting a concave with ranged units, burrowed banelings, mutalisk control, siege tank positioning, moving roaches right beside enemy units so you dont have half your roaches milling around doing nothing behind the front line, flanks in ZvT and TvT, keeping broodlords over high ground wherever possible, etc.
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@mrtomjones
stasis is a bad expample cause aslong the units are in stasis they cant be killed and its possible to rescue them by securing the position
and dark archon is so expensive that he is hardly used
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On April 09 2012 04:55 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:53 WArped wrote:
Did you see the GSTL final game between MKP and Parting last night? Did you watch the GSL finals last season and the season before that? The finals at Blizzcon and the final between Mvp and MMA? Every season of the GSL Code S you find great games between top players that are back and forth, nail biting and extremely close. The GSTL has some great series' that are also very back and forth, have well calculated cheese and close defensive games with great come-backs. I am also a fan of BW but I have never even thought of comparing the two because they are very different. Trust me, I've seen very boring games of broodwar and games that you find play that is just very lackluster. There are more games of SC2 to watch so of course you will find unexciting games from time to time. I haven't seen those games, and I'm hesitant to pay to watch SC2 at this point. Are there any other games you would recommend?
If you don't watch the matches live, then this is a major problem because GomTV dominates the korean SC2 scene. GomTV VODs are paid, except the first match of the series.
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On April 09 2012 04:55 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:53 WArped wrote:
Did you see the GSTL final game between MKP and Parting last night? Did you watch the GSL finals last season and the season before that? The finals at Blizzcon and the final between Mvp and MMA? Every season of the GSL Code S you find great games between top players that are back and forth, nail biting and extremely close. The GSTL has some great series' that are also very back and forth, have well calculated cheese and close defensive games with great come-backs. I am also a fan of BW but I have never even thought of comparing the two because they are very different. Trust me, I've seen very boring games of broodwar and games that you find play that is just very lackluster. There are more games of SC2 to watch so of course you will find unexciting games from time to time. I haven't seen those games, and I'm hesitant to pay to watch SC2 at this point. Are there any other games you would recommend?
It can be found on twitchtv. I don't remember the chanel but I think it was the IPL channel so it should be on there.
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On April 09 2012 04:53 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:25 FuRRyChoBo wrote:
It's a really rough transition to make because as a Brood War fan (I played BW semi-religiously from 1998-2010), you expect SC2 to match, or at least come close to, what Brood War meant to you. Not only does SC2 not have the history, but the dynamics of the game are different:
1) Economic harass is much less effective since workers return fewer minerals per trip and can be replenished much more quickly.
2) Splash damage is much more prevalent, and micro-negating spells are unavoidable.
3) Both macro and micro are easier, but coming from the same approach that you seem to be, even "incredible" micro in SC2 does not come anywhere near how watching a BW legend feels, even on a bad day.
4) The BW term "strategic play" has become "cheese," and it isn't punished nearly as hard as it is in BW because of inject/chrono boost/mules.
This is how I felt about the game when I first transitioned after finding it impossible to play BW on my new PC. I've developed these opinions a little bit more and I still conclusively feel that BW is, and will always be, the better game, but SC2 is a pretty good replacement if there has to be one. Apparently marine splitting can't compare? This post is just so wrong on so many levels. There is no limit to how good marine splitting can get just as one example. No human will ever be able to reach perfect splitting. How about the Dark archon and arbiter having micro-negating spells that were just as unavoidable as a fungal growth? Stop looking at your favorite game with rose coloured glasses.
The arbiter had stasis, which didn't allow damage to be taken. The Dark Archon was almost completely unused in professional games because it was simply implausible to incorporate it given how much other multitasking was needed and how useless the unit was after one Maelstrom. Compare that to fungal, which not only negates micro but also causes damage, or forcefield, which potentially traps units completely and allows stalkers to outrange them, leaving you completely powerless. There are worlds of difference between how the spells act in each game, so it's not just wearing "rose coloured glasses."
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the point is have you ever seen 2 or 3 battles going on in sc2? hardly most time its ball vs ball
no flanking hardly any army split (1 army attacking 1 base and the other army defending the own base)
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On April 09 2012 04:56 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:49 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? Please for the love of God don't do this. Nothing will ruin this thread faster than turning it into a SC2 v BW debate, which is exactly the opposite of what i intended. K guy listen.You want help to appreciate sc2 so you made a post saying what attracts you about BW and what is missing in sc2 for you to understand and enjoy it.So you started a SC2 vs BW debate yourself. Here's my simple advice: Go here http://www.ign.com/ipl/tv?screens=ignproleague(twitch),ignproleague2(twitch)&f=starcraft-2If after watching this tournament till the end you feel bored than its highly probable that you don't like the game of sc2 and there is nothing wrong about it.You aren't obligated to like lol.There are plenty of games and sports out there that can peak your interest and deserve your attention,If you looking for what BW gave you in sc2 than I'm sorry to inform you but it won't happen.The things that happened today at the PL finals and the level of intensity is long away from being achievable in sc2 if ever.
1) Like i at the beginning of the post, i didn't do this to start a debate, only to provide a basis for discussion.
2) Like i said in the middle of the post, i had IPL on when i was writing it, and it's still on right now.
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the point is have you ever seen 2 or 3 battles going on in sc2? hardly most time its ball vs ball
no flanking hardly any army split (1 army attacking 1 base and the other army defending the own base)
comments like this show you dont watch enough SC2 to criticize it for what you think it doesn't have
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On April 09 2012 04:49 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? Please for the love of God don't do this. Nothing will ruin this thread faster than turning it into a SC2 v BW debate, which is exactly the opposite of what i intended.
Are you serious?
You made a topic that essentially downplays every aspect of SC2 while glorifying BW, and you want people to tell you how SC2 can become as enjoyable to you as BW is.
How would you go about that without comparing the two?
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This thread is just going to grow into a hate/bashing thread. Honestly we shouldn't have to convince you on how to appreciate SC2 more. I just believe that it should come naturally. I watched a lot of tournaments and streams when I transitioned to SC2. It took some time to become familiar with the game, and when I did I grew to appreciate the game that much more. Basically what I'm saying is just try it out and decide for yourself.
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On April 09 2012 04:58 TaShadan wrote:
the point is have you ever seen 2 or 3 battles going on in sc2? hardly most time its ball vs ball
no flanking hardly any army split (1 army attacking 1 base and the other army defending the own base)
You cleary don't know what you are talking about.
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On April 09 2012 04:57 TaShadan wrote:
@mrtomjones
stasis is a bad expample cause aslong the units are in stasis they cant be killed and its possible to rescue them by securing the position
and dark archon is so expensive that he is hardly used
Just because it is rarely used doesn't change the fact that there are movement impairment spells in BW too. That guy made it seem like BW was perfect which is ammusing to me. Neither is flawless.
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Battles don't really end instantly in SC2. Death balls are becoming less and less prevalent, and you're seeing more and more positional play, or multiprong attacks, or multi-location harass while battles are being fought. BW forced you to have to spread out your units, and micro more thanks to bad unit pathing and small control groups. A lot of players in SC2 have used the better AI and control groups as a crutch, and even though they CAN spread out and have their units all over the map, they don't. Some, however, are doing stuff just like that.
Also, you have maps coming out that are more and more positioning-dependent for the outcome of battles. Cloud kingdom has been an excellent example of that, and it's produced some very different games. While BW and SC2 do have some differences, I think people are too quick to say that some of the things that made BW engagements great are gone in SC2. A lot of this stuff is still here, it's just not something players are FORCED to do. I'd also like to point out that the top tier of SC2 players have looked like they were playing a completely different game than everyone else. But then people caught up, and then the new top tier again changed the way people looked at how the game is played. Last october, no one would have even thought that you could manage baneling bombs effectively by predicting where your opponent burrowed them, then sending single marines out and shooting your own marine with tanks to take out the burrowed units without wasting a scan before you moved your units. But Jjakji did it last december during a GSL finals. And look at Marineking last night in the GSTL finals, and today in the IPL4. This guy is an absolute monster. He just does things that other people don't think to do, or don't have the physical ability to. You're dealing with a guy who, on a variety show Gom ran stutter step microed his marines without a keyboard. And it looked normal. EVEN THOUGH HE DID NOT HAVE AN "A" KEY TO PRESS. If you want to look at the game SC2 is becoming, even before the anti-deathball, space control units of HOTS provide, watch that guy. ST_Parting is a great protoss example, and MVP_Dongraegu is a good zerg one, if you're interested in seeing what this stuff looks like for other races. But as good as they are, marineking, right now, looks like he's in another league. He looks like the future.
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On April 09 2012 05:00 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:58 TaShadan wrote:
the point is have you ever seen 2 or 3 battles going on in sc2? hardly most time its ball vs ball
no flanking hardly any army split (1 army attacking 1 base and the other army defending the own base) You cleary don't know what you are talking about.
Yah... I see flanks in almost every game I watch. Huk and Parting have even been doing HT flanks in IPL 
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On April 09 2012 04:58 TaShadan wrote:
the point is have you ever seen 2 or 3 battles going on in sc2? hardly most time its ball vs ball
no flanking hardly any army split (1 army attacking 1 base and the other army defending the own base)
i saw it yesterday on IPL. many times actually.
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On April 09 2012 04:59 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:49 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? Please for the love of God don't do this. Nothing will ruin this thread faster than turning it into a SC2 v BW debate, which is exactly the opposite of what i intended. Are you serious? You made a topic that essentially downplays every aspect of SC2 while glorifying BW, and you want people to tell you how SC2 can become as enjoyable to you as BW is. How would you go about that without comparing the two?
No, i made a thread that highlights what i enjoy most about BW, and haven't seen in SC2. These were not criticisms, only observations.
You can't prove me wrong without comparing the two games, however you can do so without criticizing them.
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On April 09 2012 04:58 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:56 TheKefka wrote:On April 09 2012 04:49 deafhobbit wrote:On April 09 2012 04:47 Bleak wrote:On April 09 2012 04:46 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2012 04:43 Bleak wrote:
6) There are tons more positional units and more units that can be increased in value with good micro. Aside from Sentry and Blink stalkers, there's really no Unit in SC2 that rewards good control.
do you even play sc2? what kind of stupid comment is this.... If you count carpet fungalling or stutter step as really things that reward good control, then as I've said, you really haven't watched BW enough (or any). Perhaps you would like to elaborate on what other units you think are there in SC2 that you can increase its value hugely with good control? Please for the love of God don't do this. Nothing will ruin this thread faster than turning it into a SC2 v BW debate, which is exactly the opposite of what i intended. K guy listen.You want help to appreciate sc2 so you made a post saying what attracts you about BW and what is missing in sc2 for you to understand and enjoy it.So you started a SC2 vs BW debate yourself. Here's my simple advice: Go here http://www.ign.com/ipl/tv?screens=ignproleague(twitch),ignproleague2(twitch)&f=starcraft-2If after watching this tournament till the end you feel bored than its highly probable that you don't like the game of sc2 and there is nothing wrong about it.You aren't obligated to like lol.There are plenty of games and sports out there that can peak your interest and deserve your attention,If you looking for what BW gave you in sc2 than I'm sorry to inform you but it won't happen.The things that happened today at the PL finals and the level of intensity is long away from being achievable in sc2 if ever. 1) Like i at the beginning of the post, i didn't do this to start a debate, only to provide a basis for discussion. 2) Like i said in the middle of the post, i had IPL on when i was writing it, and it's still on right now.
I know but what discussion?Its about what you as individual like,no one can make you like apples if you like oranges more instead.If something interests you just go with it and don't try to overthink.No one gave you a motivational speech about why you should watch BW,you just liked the game and started watching it no?Do the same thing here.
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On April 09 2012 04:55 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:53 WArped wrote:
Did you see the GSTL final game between MKP and Parting last night? Did you watch the GSL finals last season and the season before that? The finals at Blizzcon and the final between Mvp and MMA? Every season of the GSL Code S you find great games between top players that are back and forth, nail biting and extremely close. The GSTL has some great series' that are also very back and forth, have well calculated cheese and close defensive games with great come-backs. I am also a fan of BW but I have never even thought of comparing the two because they are very different. Trust me, I've seen very boring games of broodwar and games that you find play that is just very lackluster. There are more games of SC2 to watch so of course you will find unexciting games from time to time. I haven't seen those games, and I'm hesitant to pay to watch SC2 at this point. Are there any other games you would recommend?
The Blizzard Cup final, GSL May Semi final between sCfou and NesTea and the GSTL May final between SlayerS and Mvp. Theres plenty more games, and that's all from just one year of SC2, the second year the game is even released. Go figure.
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EPT
