EPTSeconded, this can't be a good idea.
Trayvon Martin 17yo Kid Shot to Death - Page 76
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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
Seconded, this can't be a good idea. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:29 Defacer wrote: Is this the same witness that believed Traydon was yelling for help, but was inadvertently corrected by police? dont think so. this guy saw certain of the events unfold. he didnt just hear it. | ||
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SpiffD
Denmark1264 Posts
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Mallard86
186 Posts
On March 25 2012 01:49 stokes17 wrote: um, explain to me how admitting to following and confronting someone with a gun=;/= initiating the encounter expecting violence. Because I certainly think they do, and since Zimmerman has admitted to doing both..... And no, a standard self defense would not apply here. Self defense laws vary state by state, some say you cannot use force in excess of what is being used against you (can't bring guns to knife fights in NJ) And in any state without a stand your ground, self defense applies only after following a duty to retreat. Zimmerman literally did the opposite of retreating. I certainly do think that Zimmerman had a false sense of authority that the stand your ground law reenforced. He called 911 46 times from Jan 1st to the day he killed Martin. The neighborhood collectively says he has a fixation on young black males. He got his gun and chased after an unknown young man who he thought was acting suspicious; you don't do that if you have a duty to retreat instead of stand your ground. And there is only a sole unidentified witness named "john" who supports zimmerman's story. Since he won't release his name or appear on camera there is absolutely no way to judge the veracity of his claim (he could literally be a Sanford officer trying to save his department--which is fucked btw) And being bloodied is certainly not enough to prove self defense. The one mistake everyone is making is that they are looking the series of events leading up to the climax in the perspective of what is eventually going to happen. This causes everyone to completely skew each action with respect to the end result. To put things in perspective, I will relate some anecdotes from my teenage years. I was born and raised in a neighborhood that consisted of mostly seniors. I, being the mischievous teenager that every teenager is to an old person, would be frequently harassed by my neighbors, especially if I were out after dark. Occasionally I was guilty of some minor offense like minor vandalism or the dreadful act of swimming in the community pool after hours. My community was on the water so I would sometimes also be guilty of sneaking into someones backyard to fish at their dock. Most of the people who lived in my neighborhood didnt care what I did because 95% of it was innocent and the remaining 5% was essentially harmless but there were a few who did care. In my 4-5 years of "terrorizing" the neighborhood I had been chased dozens of times, yelled at, had the police called and even been detained by one of these citizen police until my parents bailed me out (with some choice words uttered at my apprehender). These couple of people were relentless in their pursuit and persecution of myself and fellow teenagers. Undoubtedly, Zimmerman was one of these with some apparent mission from god to protect the community. One thing I noticed was that adults can intimidate teenagers very well. Teenagers have not yet learned how to really stand up for themselves so an adult can usually confront a teenager and cause them to back down. So how does this relate to the incident? Zimmerman was most likely on yet another crusade against suspicious persons like he had done 46 times since January 1st of this year. Lets imagine for a moment that Zimmerman did not end up shooting Martin. Truly ask yourself how outrageous and sinister his act was for following this hooded stranger and calling the police. I will admit it is quite silly but frankly it is not anything terrible. It has happened to me several times. It has happened to my friends. It happens every day in communities across the country. Im sure that nearly everyone here knows "that guy" who does stuff like that and always calls the police about the most asinine stuff and we all (including the police) just roll our eyes at him. Lets take our hypothetical one step further. Imagine instead that the series of events played out exactly as we believe they had except that Zimmerman did not have gun this time. We know that the confrontation led to a physical altercation. We know also through eye witness accounts and evidence of bruises and blood on Zimmerman's head that Martin probably was winning the fight. If Martin had finished with Zimmerman and left the scene, the headlines would not read that a 17 year old black child (insert picture of Martin when he was probably 10 like the one they show on the news) had been stalked by neighborhood watchdog and forced to defend himself. No it would read more like black male assaults man and everyone would agree that this Martin guy was a punk and should be sent to juvee. As you can see, the ultimate outcome of the incident greatly influences your opinion of the things leading up to end result. A lot is made of the fact that Zimmerman was armed. That he was armed was not a big deal. I have a couple friends with concealed carry permits. They carry their gun everywhere they legally can. The possession of a gun does not necessarily influence their actions. If the possession of the gun was such a large factor leading up to him finally shooting then why didnt it play a factor in the 46 other times since January 1st of this year (and probably many times before then) when Zimmerman displayed similar actions. The reality is this time was different because of the physical altercation. This means we have to put aside everything else that happened and look only at that. Martin was not a child. He was a young man. He was 6ft and 140 pounds. Zimmerman is short and overweight. He may be out of shape. It is not inconceivable that a young man of 6ft and 140 pounds could overpower and beat up a man shorter than him even if he had a 110 pound weight disadvantage. If you are on the ground and someone is over you and hitting you, you are in threatening situation. Furthermore, you are not in a position to retreat. If Zimmerman had been overpowered by Martin and was being beaten by Martin, then legally he had every right to defend himself. Ultimately it comes down to intent and how the physical altercation progressed. Unless Zimmerman approached the situation with the intent to provoke an altercation and/or Zimmerman was not under reasonable threat from Martin's actions he cannot be convicted. We cannot prove that Zimmerman had intent and the evidence does not conflict with Zimmerman's claim that he was threatened by Martin. Morally Im not giving Zimmerman a pass. What he did was irresponsible. At the same time I cannot consider Martin to be free from guilt. The evidence indicates that he willingly participated in the altercation. He apparently showed poor judgement. Once again, though, you cannot convict someone for being irresponsible. You can only convict someone for breaking a law and we have no evidence that a law was broken. The Sanford police are probably getting too much of a bad rap in this case. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:35 SpiffD wrote: How can anyone in all seriousness defend Zimmerman? how can anyone in all seriousness make an informed judgment without knowing all the facts? | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:31 Freddybear wrote: Corrected to say that it was Zimmerman who was yelling "Help, help" and not Traydon Martin? He got the names wrong but the description of the person right. He thought said Martin was the fat guy in the red sweater, when Zimmermann was wearing the red sweater, that was the correction, it wasn't like they changed his story or anything. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:38 NotSorry wrote: He got the names wrong but the description of the person right. He thought said Martin was the fat guy in the red sweater, when Zimmermann was wearing the red sweater, that was the correction, it wasn't like they changed his story or anything. Where are you getting that from? So far I have yet to see anything that says which witness was being corrected, only that they were corrected that the yelling for help was Zimmerman and not Martin, not which guy was which. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:41 Fyrewolf wrote: Where are you getting that from? So far I have yet to see anything that says which witness was being corrected, only that they were corrected that the yelling for help was Zimmerman and not Martin, not which guy was which. I'm not sure any more there have been so many sources posted with so much contradiction between them that I've lost track at this point. | ||
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Jepsyn
Canada364 Posts
Now i know people are going to argue stiuational semantics so go ahead but I KNOW I am right and I KNOW that justice will be seved.....one way or antoher | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:44 Jepsyn wrote: People weigh silly things far too much into this what is really impotant is what happened an INNOCENT BOY was senselessly murdered. EVEN IF it did go the way zimmerman is saying (which is so obviously untrue) Shooting Martin was not justified. It doesnt matter what backwards dixie law protects you killing someone who you "deem" suspicious is not right. Now i know people are going to argue stiuational semantics so go ahead but I KNOW I am right and I KNOW that justice will be seved.....one way or antoher Have you not read anything at all? | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/witness-trayvon-martin-attacked-zimmerman-before-shooting | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:44 NotSorry wrote: I'm not sure any more there have been so many sources posted with so much contradiction between them that I've lost track at this point. http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T2ZSwREgdM4 "Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help." The corrected witness was a woman. | ||
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Freddybear
United States126 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:38 NotSorry wrote: He got the names wrong but the description of the person right. He thought said Martin was the fat guy in the red sweater, when Zimmermann was wearing the red sweater, that was the correction, it wasn't like they changed his story or anything. That's about what I figured. | ||
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Freddybear
United States126 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:44 Jepsyn wrote: People weigh silly things far too much into this what is really impotant is what happened an INNOCENT BOY was senselessly murdered. EVEN IF it did go the way zimmerman is saying (which is so obviously untrue) Shooting Martin was not justified. It doesnt matter what backwards dixie law protects you killing someone who you "deem" suspicious is not right. Now i know people are going to argue stiuational semantics so go ahead but I KNOW I am right and I KNOW that justice will be seved.....one way or antoher I hope you're being sarcastic. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:46 Fyrewolf wrote: Well that narrows it down a bit more thenhttp://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T2ZSwREgdM4 "Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help." The corrected witness was a woman. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:44 Jepsyn wrote: People weigh silly things far too much into this what is really impotant is what happened an INNOCENT BOY was senselessly murdered. EVEN IF it did go the way zimmerman is saying (which is so obviously untrue) Shooting Martin was not justified. It doesnt matter what backwards dixie law protects you killing someone who you "deem" suspicious is not right. Now i know people are going to argue stiuational semantics so go ahead but I KNOW I am right and I KNOW that justice will be seved.....one way or antoher so, i guess we have one person at least supporting the New Black Panthers call to violence. | ||
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phoenix`down
49 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:29 dAPhREAk wrote: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story Black Panthers offering $10,000 reward for capture of Zimmerman. This will just lead to more violence and hatred; people really need to wait until the investigation finishes and all the facts are out before they decide that Zimmerman deserves punishment. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:46 dAPhREAk wrote: another article on the John testimony. also, Black Panthers are apparently threatening Zimmerman's life. http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-spokane/witness-trayvon-martin-attacked-zimmerman-before-shooting If they happen to get shot and killed in self-defense then so be it. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
![[image loading]](http://ironicsurrealism.com/files/2012/03/nbpp-zimmerman-wanted-dead-or-alive-poster.jpg) | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On March 25 2012 03:41 Fyrewolf wrote: Where are you getting that from? So far I have yet to see anything that says which witness was being corrected, only that they were corrected that the yelling for help was Zimmerman and not Martin, not which guy was which. I think the 'corrected witness' was the short-haired, blonde woman who has been in the news and on Youtube bitching about it. However, the fact is, she insisted the screaming for Help was Trayvon's voice, when she didn't 'see' who was screaming, but rather only assumed it was Trayvon. Her assumption of who was screaming was 'corrected' because quite simply, she couldn't be a witness to anything other than, 'I heard someone screaming for help', perhaps describing the voice, but she simply wasn't in a position to assign it to one or the other. The police had other information, specifically Zimmerman had told them he was screaming for help, but nobody helped him. Also, the evidence that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman punching him lends credence to Zimmerman being the one calling for help, rather than Trayvon. This blond chick. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/ | ||
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