EPTTrayvon Martin 17yo Kid Shot to Death - Page 55
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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
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enslaved[t]
Norway46 Posts
As far as I understand; Zimmerman was the guy who made chase and probably started the confrontation. Also, is it legal in America for a "self-appointed neighbourhood watch volunteer" to carry guns out on the street? | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 23 2012 17:42 Atoissen wrote: This story has now reached Norway's biggest news paper VG: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10079789 It basically tells the same story every other news paper tells, only thing extra I noticed is that the Police Chief now has left he's postition because they did not arrest Zimmerman(?). Btw; Zaqwe: Why are you not seeing this also from Trayvon's position? Your a 17 year old kid walking alone, this big guy(Who looks rather intimidating tbh) starts following you, after he have stalked you for a couple of minuts he starts talking to you, askin questions, looking suspicious and threatening? You decide to SYG and punch him, he punches back, you understand that if this big guy getts on top of you, you are dead, you manage to pinn him to the ground, then he shoots and kills you. If this is what happened, you dont think he should be arrested and investigated for murder? If im out buying Skittles, I better not defend myself against stalkers as they might shoot me and call it self defence themselfs... zzz Big guy? Trayvon was 6'3", Zimmerman is 5'2". Trayvon dwarfs Zimmerman. Maybe you have only seen Trayvon's child pictures, before he grew up. Here are some more recent photos: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1w9MA.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WOFyf.jpg) And no, attacking someone for no reason is not at all rational behaviour, nor is it legal. You can't just attack people and pummel them in the head because they were "askin' questions". If you pin someone down and beat on them they should, and currently do in the State of Florida, have the right to defend themselves. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 23 2012 17:43 Defacer wrote: So I can stalk a guy, bait him into a fight, and shoot him? Last time I checked, nope. However, if you get jumped and pinned to the ground while your face is getting beaten you can defend yourself. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On March 23 2012 17:54 Zaqwe wrote: Big guy? Trayvon was 6'3", Zimmerman is 5'2". Trayvon dwarfs Zimmerman. Maybe you have only seen Trayvon's child pictures, before he grew up. Here are some more recent photos: + Show Spoiler + And no, attacking someone for no reason is not at all rational behaviour, nor is it legal. You can't just attack people and pummel them in the head because they were "askin' questions". If you pin someone down and beat on them they should, and currently do in the State of Florida, have the right to defend themselves. He is talking about weight, reports indicate that he was 6'3 and weighed 140 pounds http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/22/10814211-trayvon-martin-case-is-young-black-and-wearing-a-hoodie-a-recipe-for-disaster). The reports of Zimmerman's weight are upwards of 200 pounds (can't find exact number) The only advantage height brings in a fight is bigger reach, there is a reason they split boxing divisions up based on weight not height, and it's because generally (disregarding actual skill in combat) being heavier is an advantage. On March 23 2012 17:56 Zaqwe wrote: Last time I checked, nope. However, if you get jumped and pinned to the ground while your face is getting beaten you can defend yourself. Honestly are you trolling? Where is it stated anywhere that Zimmerman was 'jumped' by Trayvon? Where is it stated anywhere that Trayvon initiated the combat? You are not only exaggerating the facts you are simply making up bullshit on the spot. Edit: The only facts are that Zimmerman got out of his car and pursued Trayvon, and that Zimmerman himself told police Trayvon was running from him, and that there was a fight and Trayvon ended up dead and Zimmerman wounded, how can you just assume Trayvon was the one who started it? Edit: Lol, you actually went and specifically made (another?) account just so you could come and troll 74 posts worth in this one topic? I think the fact you did this answers my trolling question. | ||
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TheToaster
United States280 Posts
The 911 operator even specifically told him "We don't need you to pursue him anymore" and the guy still went after the kid. Anyone who disregards a trained emergency response personnel like that obviously had massive blame in his side of the court. I'm actually a local from central Florida, and to be honest the cops tend to be complete idiots in general. That obviously has nothing to do with the case and sounds like stirring up trouble, but it's absolutely true. Wish I had this link to a local study that was done a while ago. It basically showed central Florida has some stupidly skewed results compared to other urban racially-mixed Florida cities, such as Jacksonville or Miami. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 23 2012 18:00 Ryder. wrote: He is talking about weight, reports indicate that he was 6'3 and weighed 140 pounds http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/22/10814211-trayvon-martin-case-is-young-black-and-wearing-a-hoodie-a-recipe-for-disaster). The reports of Zimmerman's weight are upwards of 200 pounds (can't find exact number) The only advantage height brings in a fight is bigger reach, there is a reason they split boxing classes up based on weight not height, and it's because generally (disregarding actual skill in combat) being heavier is an advantage. Honestly are you trolling? Where is it stated anywhere that Zimmerman was 'jumped' by Trayvon? Where is it stated anywhere that Trayvon initiated the combat? You are not only exaggerating the facts you are simply making up bullshit on the spot. Edit: The only facts are that Zimmerman got out of his car and pursued Trayvon, and that Zimmerman himself told police Trayvon was running from him, and that there was a fight and Trayvon ended up dead and Zimmerman wounded, how can you just assume Trayvon was the one who started it? Short and fat people aren't very intimidating. And that's odd how if Zimmerman was a physical threat to Trayvon he ended up pinned on his back while being punched in the face. Zimmerman has clearly stated he was jumped by Trayvon. His story is consistent with eyewitnesses. There's no evidence he is lying. If Trayvon were attacked he would have wounds other than just the gun shot. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
Any suggestions offered by dispatch does not have any legal force because as noted, they are not police. What IS telling is that not too long before this incident, police community relations officers in a meeting with the neighborhood watch advised the watchmen upon observing suspicious activity to call the police and continue observing. That is, to be in place so as to be able to feed responding officers intel (who is going where, appearances, actions etc). Any information officers have upon getting to the scene is better then none. So you've got a uniformed officer in a face to face meeting telling him to do exactly what he did, vs a civvy dispatcher following the script and everybody cries because he didn't do what the "police" told him to do. Except he was. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On March 23 2012 18:10 Zaqwe wrote: Short and fat people aren't very intimidating. And that's odd how if Zimmerman was a physical threat to Trayvon he ended up pinned on his back while being punched in the face. Zimmerman has clearly stated he was jumped by Trayvon. His story is consistent with eyewitnesses. There's no evidence he is lying. If Trayvon were attacked he would have wounds other than just the gun shot. 1. You need autopsy reports to see if he had other wounds. There is none yet because the police didn't even deem it worthwhile to investigate this case until people kicked up a stink. 2. Just because somebody has an advantage in a fight/seems to be the greater physical threat doesn't mean they will win... 3. You are taken a statement by the accused as fact? You do realise that he probably doesn't want to go to jail for the rest of his life, and is probably willing to say anything to keep himself out? How you can claim this as objective evidence is mind boggling. 4. His story isn't consistent with eyewitnesses, for starters one eyewitness stated police had altered her statement and demanded the police retract that statement. I have the link in one of my previous posts. And there has been not a single eyewitness who saw who started the fight, they simply saw it mid way through. 5. Who or who isn't intimidating is your opinion, I would argue that a lanky, scrawny teenager is less intimidating than a heavily build adult. I'm not even going to bother replying to you anymore, you clearly created a new account simply to troll this topic and I think I've wasted enough time on you already | ||
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Cytokinesis
Canada330 Posts
I can't think of a single up-side to the law at all except for the fact it gives the illusion of safety, but it instead provides the opposite. | ||
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swiftazn
United States36 Posts
SECOND a 140 lb teenager can easily overcome a person who isn't trained in hand to hand fighting and is also out of shape regardless of size. anyone seen the opening picture of the kid in the youtube video? i see a football jersey.... aka athletic. Third if u disagree with the second go take on some chinese martial artist that is probably 6 inches shorter than you and anywhere from 50 to a hundred pounds less and have some fun kicking his ass =) Fourth I don't agree with zimmerman's acts he definitely was asking for trouble when by following the kid and this doesn't fall under stand your ground. however he did act in self defense in the end. whether or not that holds up in court thats up to the legal people. I'm merely a mathematics and physics major and keep to myself. However is someone is beating the shit out of me on the ground you bet i'm gonna grab my p229 and put a bullet in them. I avoid fights and confrontations at all costs so if they are threatening my life then they are really asking for it. | ||
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rhs408
United States904 Posts
Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but they (CNN) said Zimmerman has made 46 calls to the police since 2001, the vast majority of calls were him reporting suspicious behavior of black people in his neighborhood. | ||
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Niz
Canada90 Posts
- Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin who he believed was suspicious with no justifiable reason to believe so. - Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon even with Martin spotting him. At this point, you would assume a person "upto no good" would atttempt to flee the scene. He did not. - Zimmerman then left his vehicle in an attempt to follow Martin, who at this point decided to attempt to make distance between the two. The above is all evidenced by Mr. Zimmerman's 911 call. At this point we can already declare Zimmerman as the aggressor and/or at the very least declare Martin as attempting to retreat. From this point on, Martin is "protected" under the Stand Your Ground law, to defend himself. The only way this can change, is if Martin is able to close the gap and overpower Zimmerman and gain control of the situation. I find it hard to imagine, that a kid roughly half the weight of Zimmerman was not only able to close the gap and overpower, but to do so against an armed man, who we can assume was prepaired based on his own previous assumption that Martin was "suspicious". You don't approach a "suspicious" individual without caution, even if you are dumb enough to leave your vehicle and pursue the "suspicious" individual in the first place. None of these assumptions really matter though because of the eyewitness accounts. There are numerous eyewitness (as fragmented as some maybe be) accounts of Zimmerman being ontop of Martin attacking him. There is ONE account of it being the other way around with Martin on top attacking Zimmerman. The police did not canvas the area looking for witnesses immediatly after the incident. The "witness" supporting Zimmerman's story was no exception, he was not interviewed by the police. We also have both Trayvon Martin's father and mother confirming it was their son's voice screaming for help. We also have several witnesses confirming it was a "young", "almost childish" voice screaming for help. There is ONE account claiming the voice was coming from a man. The ONE account supporting Zimmerman's story was by the same "witness" who apparently saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. We have no witnesses which saw Zimmerman and/or Martin at the time of the shooting. We have several witnesses which after the shooting saw Zimmerman on top of the already dead Martin. Martin was face down and Zimmerman was on top with his hands on Martin's back. Once again all of the above can and should be considered as evidence. There are no assumptions which need to be made to paint a relatively accurate picture of the events which occured that night There are of course some major holes in the case which should be mentioned: - The police did not do routine drug/intoxication screening on Zimmerman. - The police did not canvas the area looking for witnesses. - The police allowed Zimmerman to leave the station in the same clothes he was wearing during the incident, which is against standard homicide procedure. This destroys/invalidates any forensic evidence which could be obtained from the clothing. - The police have attempted to "correct" a witness in favour of Zimmerman's story. - The police claim Tayvon Martin's father confirmed it was not his son's voice. - The police allowed a possible murder to leave the station and resume every day life without reviewing any evidence. They essentially took Zimmerman's story as fact and released him. It is pretty sad when the media has done a better job of investigating the incident than the police have. As demonstarted above, the media has uncovered numerous witness accounts which create a pretty realistic and probable interpretation of what happened. I do want to note that no mention of race was considered in any of the above analysis of the evidence. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10180 Posts
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 23 2012 18:55 Niz wrote: + Show Spoiler + Common sense would lead to a pretty realistic interpretation of what indeed happened that night. We can't let assumptions put a man behind bars, so really all we can do is look at the facts. - Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin who he believed was suspicious with no justifiable reason to believe so. - Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon even with Martin spotting him. At this point, you would assume a person "upto no good" would atttempt to flee the scene. He did not. - Zimmerman then left his vehicle in an attempt to follow Martin, who at this point decided to attempt to make distance between the two. The above is all evidenced by Mr. Zimmerman's 911 call. At this point we can already declare Zimmerman as the aggressor and/or at the very least declare Martin as attempting to retreat. From this point on, Martin is "protected" under the Stand Your Ground law, to defend himself. The only way this can change, is if Martin is able to close the gap and overpower Zimmerman and gain control of the situation. I find it hard to imagine, that a kid roughly half the weight of Zimmerman was not only able to close the gap and overpower, but to do so against an armed man, who we can assume was prepaired based on his own previous assumption that Martin was "suspicious". You don't approach a "suspicious" individual without caution, even if you are dumb enough to leave your vehicle and pursue the "suspicious" individual in the first place. None of these assumptions really matter though because of the eyewitness accounts. There are numerous eyewitness (as fragmented as some maybe be) accounts of Zimmerman being ontop of Martin attacking him. There is ONE account of it being the other way around with Martin on top attacking Zimmerman. The police did not canvas the area looking for witnesses immediatly after the incident. The "witness" supporting Zimmerman's story was no exception, he was not interviewed by the police. We also have both Trayvon Martin's father and mother confirming it was their son's voice screaming for help. We also have several witnesses confirming it was a "young", "almost childish" voice screaming for help. There is ONE account claiming the voice was coming from a man. The ONE account supporting Zimmerman's story was by the same "witness" who apparently saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. We have no witnesses which saw Zimmerman and/or Martin at the time of the shooting. We have several witnesses which after the shooting saw Zimmerman on top of the already dead Martin. Martin was face down and Zimmerman was on top with his hands on Martin's back. Once again all of the above can and should be considered as evidence. There are no assumptions which need to be made to paint a relatively accurate picture of the events which occured that night There are of course some major holes in the case which should be mentioned: - The police did not do routine drug/intoxication screening on Zimmerman. - The police did not canvas the area looking for witnesses. - The police allowed Zimmerman to leave the station in the same clothes he was wearing during the incident, which is against standard homicide procedure. This destroys/invalidates any forensic evidence which could be obtained from the clothing. - The police have attempted to "correct" a witness in favour of Zimmerman's story. - The police claim Tayvon Martin's father confirmed it was not his son's voice. - The police allowed a possible murder to leave the station and resume every day life without reviewing any evidence. They essentially took Zimmerman's story as fact and released him. It is pretty sad when the media has done a better job of investigating the incident than the police have. As demonstarted above, the media has uncovered numerous witness accounts which create a pretty realistic and probable interpretation of what happened. I do want to note that no mention of race was considered in any of the above analysis of the evidence. Wow that's a lot of inaccuracies. There is only one witness to the beating and he clearly identified the shooter was the one who was pinned to the ground being pummeled in the faced with fists while screaming for help. Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation "The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point." http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation There's really no way to avoid the fact that Zimmerman was on his back being beaten and screaming for help when he fired the shot. | ||
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woody60707
United States1863 Posts
On March 23 2012 18:55 Niz wrote: Common sense would lead to a pretty realistic interpretation of what indeed happened that night. We can't let assumptions put a man behind bars, so really all we can do is look at the facts. - Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin who he believed was suspicious with no justifiable reason to believe so. - Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon even with Martin spotting him. At this point, you would assume a person "upto no good" would atttempt to flee the scene. He did not. - Zimmerman then left his vehicle in an attempt to follow Martin, who at this point decided to attempt to make distance between the two. The above is all evidenced by Mr. Zimmerman's 911 call. At this point we can already declare Zimmerman as the aggressor and/or at the very least declare Martin as attempting to retreat. From this point on, Martin is "protected" under the Stand Your Ground law, to defend himself. The only way this can change, is if Martin is able to close the gap and overpower Zimmerman and gain control of the situation. I find it hard to imagine, that a kid roughly half the weight of Zimmerman was not only able to close the gap and overpower, but to do so against an armed man, who we can assume was prepaired based on his own previous assumption that Martin was "suspicious". You don't approach a "suspicious" individual without caution, even if you are dumb enough to leave your vehicle and pursue the "suspicious" individual in the first place. None of these assumptions really matter though because of the eyewitness accounts. There are numerous eyewitness (as fragmented as some maybe be) accounts of Zimmerman being ontop of Martin attacking him. There is ONE account of it being the other way around with Martin on top attacking Zimmerman. The police did not canvas the area looking for witnesses immediatly after the incident. The "witness" supporting Zimmerman's story was no exception, he was not interviewed by the police. We also have both Trayvon Martin's father and mother confirming it was their son's voice screaming for help. We also have several witnesses confirming it was a "young", "almost childish" voice screaming for help. There is ONE account claiming the voice was coming from a man. The ONE account supporting Zimmerman's story was by the same "witness" who apparently saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. We have no witnesses which saw Zimmerman and/or Martin at the time of the shooting. We have several witnesses which after the shooting saw Zimmerman on top of the already dead Martin. Martin was face down and Zimmerman was on top with his hands on Martin's back. Once again all of the above can and should be considered as evidence. There are no assumptions which need to be made to paint a relatively accurate picture of the events which occured that night There are of course some major holes in the case which should be mentioned: - The police did not do routine drug/intoxication screening on Zimmerman. - The police did not canvas the area looking for witnesses. - The police allowed Zimmerman to leave the station in the same clothes he was wearing during the incident, which is against standard homicide procedure. This destroys/invalidates any forensic evidence which could be obtained from the clothing. - The police have attempted to "correct" a witness in favour of Zimmerman's story. - The police claim Tayvon Martin's father confirmed it was not his son's voice. - The police allowed a possible murder to leave the station and resume every day life without reviewing any evidence. They essentially took Zimmerman's story as fact and released him. It is pretty sad when the media has done a better job of investigating the incident than the police have. As demonstarted above, the media has uncovered numerous witness accounts which create a pretty realistic and probable interpretation of what happened. I do want to note that no mention of race was considered in any of the above analysis of the evidence. Do you have a link for any of that? As you see, half the poster here say a lot of that didn't happen. The part about the police lying about the father saying it was his son is a big point for me, and should be easy to prove. Either the police are lairs, or the family are lairs and shouldn't be believed. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
On March 23 2012 18:29 swiftazn wrote: dont know if this has been mentioned recently or not but i'm sick and tired of people saying that getting punched over and over and attacked by an unarmed 140lb teenager isn't worth enough of a reason for self defense. FIRST OF ALL you can easily kill someone with your fists. there are stress points on the human body that one can injure. how about collapsing a windpipe eh? No. You can't murder a person, especially not a child, because they are hitting you. Let alone if you have been following them around and harassing them. Maybe in the states this reasoning somehow makes sense at the time but it's incredibly shortsighted and if everyone thought like that the human race would exterminate itself in a matter of decades. Us Europeans can't even fucking believe it. Here, anyone carrying a gun in public is normally considered a lunatic and a potential murderer. You don't "defend" yourself by killing an unarmed person. Kids get into fights all the time. An average high school yard sees several fights a month. The purpose of a fight isn't to kill someone, most of the time it's not even to injure them it's just to settle a score or put them in their place. The purpose of firing a gun is exclusively to end a person's life. This is a grown man who shot an unarmed child. Everything else is moot and the SYG law in itself is ridiculously retarded. You can't solve violence by legalizing murder. How does this stop anyone from harassing a person constantly until they flip out and then killing them in "self defense"? I'd like a honest answer because this seems completely feasible under such laws and a foolproof way of getting away with premeditated murder. | ||
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woody60707
United States1863 Posts
On March 23 2012 19:19 Kickboxer wrote: No. You can't murder a person, especially not a child, because they are hitting you. Let alone if you have been following them around and harassing them. Maybe in the states this reasoning somehow makes sense at the time but it's incredibly shortsighted and if everyone thought like that the human race would exterminate itself in a matter of decades. Us Europeans can't even fucking believe it. Here, anyone carrying a gun in public is normally considered a lunatic and a potential murderer. You don't "defend" yourself by killing an unarmed person. Kids get into fights all the time. An average high school yard sees several fights a month. The purpose of a fight isn't to kill someone, most of the time it's not even to injure them it's just to settle a score or put them in their place. The purpose of firing a gun is exclusively to end a person's life. This is a grown man who shot an unarmed child. Everything else is moot and the SYG law in itself is ridiculously retarded. You can't solve violence by legalizing murder. How does this stop anyone from harassing a person constantly until they flip out and then killing them in "self defense"? I'd like a honest answer because this seems completely feasible under such laws and a foolproof way of getting away with premeditated murder. There is such a gab of understanding that you should start a another thread for it. No matter your personal thought on it in this case you do have to understand that (and I say this to be funny, but it's also 100% true) it's his God given right to carry a weapon in public. It's also in no way illegal to just confront and ask someone questions. These points are not illegal and as such can in no way be used against him. | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
On March 23 2012 18:29 swiftazn wrote: dont know if this has been mentioned recently or not but i'm sick and tired of people saying that getting punched over and over and attacked by an unarmed 140lb teenager isn't worth enough of a reason for self defense. FIRST OF ALL you can easily kill someone with your fists. there are stress points on the human body that one can injure. how about collapsing a windpipe eh? SECOND a 140 lb teenager can easily overcome a person who isn't trained in hand to hand fighting and is also out of shape regardless of size. anyone seen the opening picture of the kid in the youtube video? i see a football jersey.... aka athletic. Third if u disagree with the second go take on some chinese martial artist that is probably 6 inches shorter than you and anywhere from 50 to a hundred pounds less and have some fun kicking his ass =) Fourth I don't agree with zimmerman's acts he definitely was asking for trouble when by following the kid and this doesn't fall under stand your ground. however he did act in self defense in the end. whether or not that holds up in court thats up to the legal people. I'm merely a mathematics and physics major and keep to myself. However is someone is beating the shit out of me on the ground you bet i'm gonna grab my p229 and put a bullet in them. I avoid fights and confrontations at all costs so if they are threatening my life then they are really asking for it. Your second point says that a person who weighs less can beat up a person who weighs more Your third point says that a person who weighs more can beat up a person who weighs less If Martin is 140lbs and Zimmerman is 50-100lbs less, Zimmerman would be anywhere from 40-90lbs. wat. | ||
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Zaqwe
591 Posts
On March 23 2012 19:19 Kickboxer wrote: No. You can't murder a person, especially not a child, because they are hitting you. Let alone if you have been following them around and harassing them. Maybe in the states this reasoning somehow makes sense at the time but it's incredibly shortsighted and if everyone thought like that the human race would exterminate itself in a matter of decades. Us Europeans can't even fucking believe it. Here, anyone carrying a gun in public is normally considered a lunatic and a potential murderer. You don't "defend" yourself by killing an unarmed person. Kids get into fights all the time. An average high school yard sees several fights a month. The purpose of a fight isn't to kill someone, most of the time it's not even to injure them it's just to settle a score or put them in their place. The purpose of firing a gun is exclusively to end a person's life. This is a grown man who shot an unarmed child. Everything else is moot and the SYG law in itself is ridiculously retarded. You can't solve violence by legalizing murder. How does this stop anyone from harassing a person constantly until they flip out and then killing them in "self defense"? I'd like a honest answer because this seems completely feasible under such laws and a foolproof way of getting away with premeditated murder. "Child"? Are you kidding me? He was a 6'2" football playing young man who sold cannabis. Seriously, "child"? It's almost like you are aware you have no argument and have to resort to this emotionally charged absurdity. Here are some more recent photographs than what the media has been showing: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZJswb.jpg) In a way you are right. You can't murder someone who has you pinned to the ground and is beating you in the face because that is clearly self defense, not murder. | ||
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