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The subject of this thread is not a license to roll out your inaccurate, misinformed, poorly conceived, tired, and downright offensive theories about race relations. |
On March 09 2012 09:24 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:22 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 09:15 SovSov wrote:On March 09 2012 09:10 Rorschach wrote:On March 09 2012 09:02 Utinni wrote:On March 09 2012 08:57 figq wrote:
Playing games on ladder is a personal matter, not a public matter, and should not be in any way related to what you do in your esports professional activities, because it's not a professional activity in itself. Obviously Orb is nether racist, nor homophobic, he just reaches for whatever derogatory word comes to mind when he wants to offend a stranger on the ladder.
The further accusation of him "trying to cover it up", I have no idea if it's true, but seriously if it was true - it's also not that shocking. Orb has a history of being very vulnerable to personal accusations, to the point that he really becomes extremely defensive and loses his calm.
Above all, Orb is the best single (non-tandem) SC2 caster in the world; his style of casting is very polished and professional, his understanding of the game and in-depth analysis is at the level of only Artosis and active progamers. He is a very intelligent person, with the odd flip-side that he can be verbally offensive on ladder. That part about him is not new, he's always been famous about it, and people have been teasing him about it since beta. It complements perfectly his otherwise highly professional behavior, and frankly is just a personal matter of his, and shouldn't be for the public to control. He was put in a professional position and lied to EG about his raging past. It is a public matter when the public knows about it. It would be the same as if a newscaster did the same thing and it was filmed at a bar or public event. It may have not been for the world to see but the world did see it and he will be punished accordingly. OMG "lied about his raging past". Sir (pulls down shades) you've been convicted of a rage crime. Come with us.... Also people please quit saying Orb is racist! You're all retarded if you think he is actually racist (just as I would be if thought you were all literally retarded) TL is starting to make me as sick a the reddit community... Take Person A: He doesn't say anything. Person B: Uses the word nigger. Who is it safer to assume is racist? Are people retarded for thinking Person B is racist? I would think him using that word ups his chance for being an actual racist. So I fail to see how people are retarded who assuming he is racist when he uses a word associated with racism. You don't know Orb. You have never met him personally, you don't know what his personality is, what his political views are, what his views on race are. You don't know whether he's actually racist or not. Just because he threw out the N-word on his stream a few times does not make him a racist. If he goes up to black people and calls them the N-word or a coon to their face, that's a different story. So in summary, no it's not safe to assume Person B is a racist. Actually, given that you know nothing about the person, the safest thing to assume is that Person B is racist. All else is equal, the only thing that isn't is the word nigger being inserted.
Um...what? So we should ignore context entirely and just go ahead and assassinate Person B's character?
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On March 09 2012 09:25 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:19 Razuik wrote:On March 09 2012 09:12 VirgilSC2 wrote:Just for the fun of it, I went to the search function on TeamLiquid and used these parameters: Search Content: faggot Search: Content Only Username: IdrA got something like 23 results from 22 threads. If Orb DOES get fired, they better justify it via the "lying to management" part, and not the content part. I'll even go as far as to quote IdrA here. On February 10 2007 02:18 IdrA wrote:
common useage has basically made fag interchangeable with any other standard insult, 99% of the time a person using it that way has no homosexual-related intentions, its no different than any other insult except it pisses overly sensitive people off a bit more once in a while. Nobody cares if you say "faggot" anymore. This shouldn't have even been drama in the first place, and I personally don't think Orb should have even had the chance to lie about this to someone. Keep doing a great job of ruining great casters' opportunities Reddit. I vote you go for DJWheat next, he seems like a nice guy. The last line is the most interesting part. You think reddit logged on to his account and said all of these things? No, he did. People should always receive the consequences for the things that they did.. Do you disagree with a statement like that? Yeah, I do. If you want to persecute every single person who's ever used an inflammatory comment on their stream, or while being played on someone else's stream, or on TeamLiquid I think you'll find yourself left with no foreign scene whatsoever. Honestly, some crimes aren't worth persecuting. Look at Wal-Mart and CVS, they lose millions a year in petty theft, but they'd lose even more if they persecuted everyone who steals a pack of gum.
I agree with Virgil here. He should be outed for lying to his bosses and the community not for saying things on the ladder like this. A lot of people rage and everyone who does rage does it in their own way. I think if he hadn't lied about it then he should be given the opportunity to keep doing what he's doing. However, it seems like he's been caught in a lie and that's something that you don't want to get caught up in.
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what happens on reddit/battle.net stays on battle.net. If blizzard doesnt take action against him for saying nigger why should we. What is the difference between someone saying nigger and bitch? There is no difference, actually bitch might be worse since it insults most females instead of just black people. Censoring this shit is beyond stupid. Choose whether or not you want to listen to it yourself, dont shove it down my throat.
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On March 09 2012 09:25 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:23 Shiori wrote:On March 09 2012 09:19 sam!zdat wrote:On March 09 2012 09:17 Rorschach wrote:
For the love of god please close this thread! What are the people who are calling for this thread to be closed really afraid of? My guess is it's that they're afraid they might have to actually examine the way they use language themselves and not just go around the world like idiot children repeating any inanity that comes in through their ear-holes. Maybe you should examine the soundness of an argument which seeks to demonstrate personal, directed hatred on the basis of what a person says when they're feeling angry and frustrated. When you're angry, you're not TRYING to be polite or keep things under control. You've lost control! That's what being pissed off means! God, why is this so hard to understand? Orb didn't just go up to someone and say 'hey, you, yeah, you: you're a nigger." This is honestly the stupidest thread I've ever read on these forums (and that's saying a lot). This is a storm in a teacup, and I'm sick of this holier-than-thou presumption from people like you. Stop trying to allude to high concepts like philosophy of language (when what you want is psychology or sociology, by the way) or morality or history or whatever. This is a trivial event, and the only people that are offended are people like you who think they need to be offended on behalf of the people that these words are supposed to offend. If you resort to calling someone a "nigger" when you're pissed off, what does that mean? It isn't like "faggot" where 99% of people between 10-25 use it every single day, it's the kind of word that using in real life gets you smacked in the face.
It doesn't mean anything. It could mean that you have a deep-seated hatred for black people, but it's not nearly enough evidence to make that conclusion. Whether or not people hit you in real life for using it is irrelevant; as far as I'm concerned, hitting people is never justified to begin with.
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On March 09 2012 09:07 Bayyne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:06 Orracle wrote:
I don't watch his stream, nor do I like him, but I don't give a shit what some one says. Every other game on battle.net, regardless of win or lose, a person generally PMs me with something such as "ez u faget". This is no different. If you don't like his language, don't watch his stream, but making drama threads like this is uncalled for. No different than Jessica calling out Dragon publicly. Brother, you and I are in the small minority. I agree with you, but I think this is too late.
This is the truth but Orb isnt some random guy anymore. Im black and while i am not offended to the point of raging i have lost some respect for him.
1. If you make racist jokes (which i do) you do them in private with people that actually know your not racist.
2. Calling someone a jew for being cheap or black for listing to hip hop a shitton is different than calling someone a stupid kike / fucking nigger when your pissed at them and are trying to be intentionally demeaning. That is inexcusable.
3. If you dont understand the context of black people using the n word around each other then get out. I NEVER use the n word and i dont like it, but a black person saying IS different from another race saying it for a reason. Trying to justify its use by saying i hear black comics and rap artists saying it is stupid. Iv heard white comics make black jokes and they were well received context and reputation matter ALOT.
If he said "lol my friends so jewish he didnt pick up the tab" its poking fun at racial stereotypes in the right environment.
If he said "fucking jewish piece of shit nigger strat" (which is pretty much what he did) its much different.
As little as this actually offends me, reading the responses/rationale of people in this thread leads my to one conclusion.
TL is full of young white kids that are either to immature to understand whats going on or people really take racism too lightly.
I make gay/black/asian jokes and i dont think someone should be crucified for a private statement, but a gay/black/asian jokes (even if it is stereotype based) is much different than calling someone a fucking nigger/jew/faggot for no reason other than to demean/offend them. And when you represent the community shit like this doesn't fly.
I still dont think he is racist but he has lost alot of my respect if he needs to resort to racial slurs every time he loses. It seems pretty immature. Destiny is the same for me and since i dont watch either of their streams i dont really care since i can ignore it. But he represents SC2 and EG so i do have a problem with it.
TLDR: Race shit is always touchy, if you a public figure you cant EVER do it without expecting backlash so be careful. I dont think orb and destiny are racist but i dont have alot of respect for people that try to defend using racial/sexual slurs to crush someone spirits. Race jokes im ok with but calling someone a fucking (insert racial term) when your mad at them is ridiculous. Calling someone a jew for begin cheap is alot different than calling someone a piece of shit kike because your pissed at them. Additionally, sponsors care so you cant just run your mouth when your're attached to a company
Edit: I think alot of people are overreacting, but alot of people are also under reacting
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On March 09 2012 09:23 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:22 VirgilSC2 wrote:On March 09 2012 09:16 sam!zdat wrote:On March 09 2012 09:12 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I'll even go as far as to quote IdrA here. So your go-to guy on the philosophy of language is idra? I happened to have found that quote when I hit the search button, and thought it was extremely appropriate for my stance on the matter, especially since this concerns Evil Geniuses. I suspect Orb will be getting fired for lying to EG management about this, but should they fire him for his use of offensive language in the past, in his private life, I certainly will find that very extreme, and completely two faced. That's all. Really, that quote from February 2007, 5 years ago, before Idra was even a member of Evil Geniuses. Super relevant.
The quote from IdrA was to demonstrate the colloquial use of the term "faggot" which, frankly was relevant in 2007, and is relevant now.
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Saying "witch hunt" only adds damage multipliers to whatever you are trying to refute.
Saying the things he said in the screenshot isn't racist... it's just ragist.
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On March 09 2012 09:18 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 08:57 figq wrote:
Playing games on ladder is a personal matter, not a public matter, and should not be in any way related to what you do in your esports professional activities, because it's not a professional activity in itself. Obviously Orb is nether racist, nor homophobic, he just reaches for whatever derogatory word comes to mind when he wants to offend a stranger on the ladder.
The further accusation of him "trying to cover it up", I have no idea if it's true, but seriously if it was true - it's also not that shocking. Orb has a history of being very vulnerable to personal accusations, to the point that he really becomes extremely defensive and loses his calm.
Above all, Orb is the best single (non-tandem) SC2 caster in the world; his style of casting is very polished and professional, his understanding of the game and in-depth analysis is at the level of only Artosis and active progamers. He is a very intelligent person, with the odd flip-side that he can be verbally offensive on ladder. That part about him is not new, he's always been famous about it, and people have been teasing him about it since beta. It complements perfectly his otherwise highly professional behavior, and frankly is just a personal matter of his, and shouldn't be for the public to control. This is patently untrue. It's not a personal matter. If you rape a goat in the middle of the street how is that in any way shape or form just your personal business? He did it in a public forum, he streamed it so that people could see it. Objectively speaking, using the word nigger as a derogatory term is considered highly inappropriate. He's probably not racist, he's probably not a homophobic person either, though quite frankly I've never met someone who regularly uses the word nigger or faggot who didn't have an incredibly, inherent, guttural, instinctual distaste for both of the groups they're referring to. The problem is that when the derogatory word that comes to mind is nigger, or faggot, it shows a certain level of immaturity and uselessness. Maybe I'm some super human holy shit impossible to tilt person, but even at my highest peaks of anger most of it is pointed towards myself, my tools, my cards, my mouse, but never the other person. It's not their fault I lost to begin with. I swear a lot for sure, but almost exclusively never towards another person and I sure as shit have, genuinely, in my entire life ever angrily called someone a faggot or a nigger. Even in my deepest fits of rage it's very easy to choose other words. For sure, there is a lot of stupidity in this thread revolving around what's going wrong. But ignoring the parties involved, I find it highly suspect that anyone would claim that using nigger as a derogatory word is an acceptable thing. Note that there's a difference between accepted and acceptable. It's widely accepted because people have become desensitized to the 14 year olds on Xbox Live (or, counter-strike 1.6 days) shouting the words in their prepubescent rage, but it shouldn't be accepted by any community that claims to be even remotely intelligent or civilized. It's not about some utopian nice-guy attitude that everyone should have (which, granted, they should. It's not like it's hard to not get mad at things, it's actually kind of hard to get mad in the first place if you have any semblance of self-control).
Thank you for this. I feel like this entire situation and some of the responses here has made me deeply depressed about some people's concepts of language use. Maybe I spent too much time in university.. but it's shocking..
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It's so easy to say you're offended. What people NEVER try to do is to try to not be offended by things. Literally will make you a better person and let you enjoy things you wouldn't normally enjoy otherwise. Personally, if it was me, it would be much easier to just not be offended by anything than to complain about how something offended me. I understand people don't think that way, but maybe they should, because they'd be a lot more productive.
Instead of jumping on bandwagons, maybe try and consider adapting yourselves to "offensive words." Seriously think about a world where no "bad words" exist. All it takes is to tell yourself "I'm not offended by that; that word means nothing significant." So many problems could be saved from this, but people don't think that way ever.
Everyone talking about this hurting esports? You're hurting esports by starting this discussion. You're hurting esports by not watching orb anymore. You're hurting esports by completely trashing a guy who is exceptional at his job.
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On March 09 2012 09:27 Nortac wrote:
Everyone who is judging and making insane accusations please know that you have raged before and said things you didn't mean, and that you did not want the public to see. He raged, said some bad things, and that's that. Hopefully he'll learn his lesson, and no one should judge him based off of these since everyone has done the same.
I've never called anyone a "nigger," online or off.
It's so easy to say you're offended. What people NEVER try to do is to try to not be offended by things. Literally will make you a better person and let you enjoy things you wouldn't normally enjoy otherwise. Personally, if it was me, it would be much easier to just not be offended by anything than to complain about how something offended me. I understand people don't think that way, but maybe they should, because they'd be a lot more productive.
Instead of jumping on bandwagons, maybe try and consider adapting yourselves to "offensive words." Seriously think about a world where no "bad words" exist. All it takes is to tell yourself "I'm not offended by that; that word means nothing significant." So many problems could be saved from this, but people don't think that way ever.
I'm not offended that he used "nigger," I'm offended that he used inappropriate and unprofessional language, lied about it when he got called out instead of apologizing, and then went around bitching at everyone who didn't instantly believe his lies.
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I don't think that the fact that he is raging is the problem, more the fact that he is defending himself by calling other people liars by lying. Poor class. If you are a stupid racist asshole, at least own up to it like idra, destiny, psy, etc. They all rage and it's ok cause they own up to it.
Lying about it is not ok. /lostrespect for orb.
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On March 09 2012 09:27 Nortac wrote:
Everyone who is judging and making insane accusations please know that you have raged before and said things you didn't mean, and that you did not want the public to see. He raged, said some bad things, and that's that. Hopefully he'll learn his lesson, and no one should judge him based off of these since everyone has done the same.
No not everyone has done the same. Not everyone is in the same position he is.
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On March 09 2012 09:29 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:23 Kich wrote:On March 09 2012 09:22 VirgilSC2 wrote:On March 09 2012 09:16 sam!zdat wrote:On March 09 2012 09:12 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I'll even go as far as to quote IdrA here. So your go-to guy on the philosophy of language is idra? I happened to have found that quote when I hit the search button, and thought it was extremely appropriate for my stance on the matter, especially since this concerns Evil Geniuses. I suspect Orb will be getting fired for lying to EG management about this, but should they fire him for his use of offensive language in the past, in his private life, I certainly will find that very extreme, and completely two faced. That's all. Really, that quote from February 2007, 5 years ago, before Idra was even a member of Evil Geniuses. Super relevant. The quote from IdrA was to demonstrate the colloquial use of the term "faggot" which, frankly was relevant in 2007, and is relevant now.
Not to mention that people seem to want to use the n-word quotes from Orb's stream when at the time he wasn't even part of EG
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On March 09 2012 09:29 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:24 Roe wrote:On March 09 2012 09:22 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 09:15 SovSov wrote:On March 09 2012 09:10 Rorschach wrote:On March 09 2012 09:02 Utinni wrote:On March 09 2012 08:57 figq wrote:
Playing games on ladder is a personal matter, not a public matter, and should not be in any way related to what you do in your esports professional activities, because it's not a professional activity in itself. Obviously Orb is nether racist, nor homophobic, he just reaches for whatever derogatory word comes to mind when he wants to offend a stranger on the ladder.
The further accusation of him "trying to cover it up", I have no idea if it's true, but seriously if it was true - it's also not that shocking. Orb has a history of being very vulnerable to personal accusations, to the point that he really becomes extremely defensive and loses his calm.
Above all, Orb is the best single (non-tandem) SC2 caster in the world; his style of casting is very polished and professional, his understanding of the game and in-depth analysis is at the level of only Artosis and active progamers. He is a very intelligent person, with the odd flip-side that he can be verbally offensive on ladder. That part about him is not new, he's always been famous about it, and people have been teasing him about it since beta. It complements perfectly his otherwise highly professional behavior, and frankly is just a personal matter of his, and shouldn't be for the public to control. He was put in a professional position and lied to EG about his raging past. It is a public matter when the public knows about it. It would be the same as if a newscaster did the same thing and it was filmed at a bar or public event. It may have not been for the world to see but the world did see it and he will be punished accordingly. OMG "lied about his raging past". Sir (pulls down shades) you've been convicted of a rage crime. Come with us.... Also people please quit saying Orb is racist! You're all retarded if you think he is actually racist (just as I would be if thought you were all literally retarded) TL is starting to make me as sick a the reddit community... Take Person A: He doesn't say anything. Person B: Uses the word nigger. Who is it safer to assume is racist? Are people retarded for thinking Person B is racist? I would think him using that word ups his chance for being an actual racist. So I fail to see how people are retarded who assuming he is racist when he uses a word associated with racism. You don't know Orb. You have never met him personally, you don't know what his personality is, what his political views are, what his views on race are. You don't know whether he's actually racist or not. Just because he threw out the N-word on his stream a few times does not make him a racist. If he goes up to black people and calls them the N-word or a coon to their face, that's a different story. So in summary, no it's not safe to assume Person B is a racist. Actually, given that you know nothing about the person, the safest thing to assume is that Person B is racist. All else is equal, the only thing that isn't is the word nigger being inserted. Um...what? So we should ignore context entirely and just go ahead and assassinate Person B's character?
The context is of no consequence. Him playing video games and being mad, it still doesn't have any effect on his racism.
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That kind of behaviour is not acceptable, you can forgive somone once or twice, but when they show the same conduct over and over again ...
If you dont enjoy the game go play something else, stop being such a jerk.
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On March 09 2012 09:22 Vandalman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:16 NuclearJudas wrote:
So he made a bad remark on ladder, who the fuck cares? Seriously, it's not like he called MMA a faggot for using Terran during a cast. Sure, it's not really appropriate behaviour, but he was playing on his own time. What's the big deal here? The big deal is that he lied to the community and to EG, which then backed him. The community and EG then found out he lied and everything blew up. He should have just been honest and it would have been a lot easier for EG to not get as invovled as they will have to now.
I agree that what transpired after he was called out was handled extremely poorly, and after it I can understand him eventually being let go, due to him being a liar about it and acting generally odd. But the raging on the ladder must be something people are used to. Idra, Lalush and probably many more has written some really bad stuff, but it hasn't had much of a reaction. In fact, EG are quite fine with marketing Idra as a "bad guy".
He should have just apologised about it or something and moved on, and the community probably would have done the same. Hopefully he'll still be casting for ESV after this. ;o I for one really like his casting.
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On March 09 2012 09:22 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:21 Apex wrote:
This is a pretty big witchunt going on here. Not to say orb's behavior is excusable but it should be handled between EG and him. No need to make a whole entire thread about it.
I mean, you see these kinds of insults so often in the gaming community and claiming that orb is racist because he says nigger is jumping to conclusions. Just because he uses the word does not mean he means it in racist terms. It's a stupid conclusion. But this is a moot point.
The main thing is he raged. Disappointing, certainly. To get all up in arms over when you see this often (especially when you have known ragers like Idra)? Overblown.
Riddle: What is the difference between a witch and a racist? Answer: Sometimes a person is actually a racist.
By witchunt I would mean "overblown" controversy. I admit I'd have been better off picking a better word but my point still stands. This entire issue is getting out of hand.
Just as you can say "You don't know Orb. He can be racist for all we know!", people can also argue the same thing and say he isn't racist with the same argument. Whether he is racist or not is a non-issue.
Raging then trying to lie about it is the true issue. It is an issue, but that issue is better off handled between EG and him as I've said before. EG will do what it sees fit and that'll be that.
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On March 09 2012 09:29 Spicy_Curry wrote:
What is the difference between someone saying nigger and bitch? There is no difference, actually bitch might be worse since it insults most females instead of just black people.
Oh my dear lord.
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Saying racist things in SC2 chat is not SO bad.... its stupid, childish and mean however.
That's if just your opponent see's it.
If you stream it, and if you stream it while you also represent and organization. Then your simply doomed if it gets too much attention.
This is too much attention.
Its over. Orb gave his haters a chance to take him down, he gave them all the ammo they needed, and they took it.
Any organization that he represents, is going to have to hire him knowing this history. Since they know about this, they'll have to defend it and so will their sponsors. They don't want this..... and Orb isn't special enough to warrant business professionals risking their investments and partnerships.
If he were more well liked, maybe he wouldn't have been piled on like this.... but honestly its his own fault. The punishment is going to be harsh, but he reaped what he sowed.
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On March 09 2012 09:27 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 09:25 VirgilSC2 wrote:
If you want to persecute every single person who's ever used an inflammatory comment on their stream, or while being played on someone else's stream, or on TeamLiquid I think you'll find yourself left with no foreign scene whatsoever.
Honestly, some crimes aren't worth persecuting. Look at Wal-Mart and CVS, they lose millions a year in petty theft, but they'd lose even more if they persecuted everyone who steals a pack of gum.
It's not persecution. The criminal is irrelevant; the crime is important. Your analogy is stupid.
.....calling someone a "nigger" or a "faggot" isn't a crime.
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EPT
