EPTWhy do people hate Random players ? - Page 17
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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MrASAP
United Kingdom63 Posts
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liberal
1116 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:18 Roblin wrote: I have never lost to a random player the last 3 seasons, then again, I don't play all that much so I rarely actually face random players, but I would say that those 3 seasons equal about 10 or 15 vsR games and I repeat, I have not ever lost vs random since last summer. so I welcome random players, they are shitty with all races instead of good with 1 race, thus I pretty much always win because I play safe. What league/rank are you? If you welcome random players, I'd be happy to put an end to your perfect record, and I'm sure I could do it too, because I'm not shitty with all races, I'm pretty good with all races. You play "safe" and I'll play greedy. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:23 tztztz wrote: so if PvR is broken, why don't blizzard fix it? Because less then 5% of people play random at Master level, genius. It basically means in itself that Random is in fact, not imbalanced. If it was, people would play it way more. It's just that some situations are freaking frustrating in some matchups, which could be easily be dealt with if the random's race was displayed on the loading screen. | ||
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AndreiDaGiant
United States394 Posts
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bouhko
193 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:50 UmiNotsuki wrote: Look, you don't need data for the point to be obviously true. It's obviously true that most players have builds that deviate from each other depending on their opponent's race before they might want to scout. That makes it obvious that they either have to scout earlier than they would like to (which is sub-optimal) or just pick a build that's either acceptable against all three races (but not particularly good against one, which is bad because our opponent is only playing one race) or pick one that is good against a specific race and hope their opponent spawned as that race. That makes it obvious that it's unlikely that a non-random player will go into a game as strongly as they would if they were against the same race, but knew that before hand. There's an innate advantage to decision making that knowing your opponent's options can bring. Not to mention how obvious it is that it's almost impossible to effectively cheese a random player because there are effectively no cheeses that work against all three races. This removes the fear of cheese from a random player and allows them to be greedier than normal, or even to cheese themselves without their opponent necessarily knowing what they're going to do beforehand. It is all pretty obvious... The reason pros don't play random is because depth beats breadth, but for the more casual ladder player far too many games can be won by a random player cheesing. Actually, for the casual ladder player, far too many game can be won by any player cheesing. You easily go to diamond with only all-ins. So should we forbid cheese alltogether ? | ||
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Supercilium
Sweden308 Posts
On February 23 2012 22:53 -Trippin- wrote: PvR is fucking retarded. If the random player randomed zerg, you are behind. If they randomed Protoss and you took the precaution to make a gateway at your ramp, you're vulnerable. Random should show your race upon startup. Well, with random you need to learn three times as many match-ups, give some credit to the random player instead. Send a faster scout vs a random and play a little bit safer, since he probably doesn't know the match-up as well you can afford to play a bit safer. I agree though that random players cheese more, but all races cheese much in lower leagues. | ||
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bouhko
193 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:08 Doctorasul wrote: I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players. Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it. You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone. One of the best post in this thread so far... | ||
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PeggyHill
1494 Posts
On February 23 2012 22:55 Teoita wrote: Because random doesn't show the race at start. As a protoss player, that's annoying as hell. This. It's so frustrating to not be able to FFE on a map that is perfect for it, and then getting behind because of that. | ||
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primebeef
United States140 Posts
People bm/rage all the time at all levels, although I have never had anyone raged at me when they asked me what race I got and I tell them, if they lose even with that info, it is their own fault. But you choose your own playstyle, it isn't just random players that gets raged at for being random, a lot of people just rage vs match ups they do bad against. Just don't mind them because it will probably ruin your day. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers. on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random. personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
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kcbgoku
Poland156 Posts
 Don't feel too special, when people loose they tend to say stuff like this no matter what race you play. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote: People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds. I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:08 Doctorasul wrote: I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players. Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it. You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone. This is ... not an intelligent response. And it's condescending, to boot, but where would an unintelligent internet post be without a healthy dose of condescension? If you do not know the race your opponent is, and your opponent does know your race, and your opponent is even remotely competent, you are at a disadvantage. Saying that your opponent is then disadvantaged and is therefore entitled to claim other unfair advantages because he is not as good as you is absurd. That's basically saying that if I play a lower-ranked player I should be required to give him some advantage to "make it fair." Playing random does not put you at a "disadvantage," because putting yourself at a "disadvantage" implies that you are deliberately handicapping yourself for that game. Playing random doesn't disadvantage you because you are just worse at the game for it. You don't learn timings, or builds, how to deal with various pressures or cheeses, you don't solidify the macro mechanics of your race. You are simply not as good. Random is not a race. You do not random into a random race. You do not pick a new strategy for a not-race. You random into T, P, or Z, and your opponent HAS to play the game as though you are T, P, or Z. Good players play each of those matchups differently, and begin those matchups with the knowledge of what race their opponents are. Playing a game without that basic knowledge makes that game silly. The point that people are trying to make that you seem to be doing your best to ignore is that if you took two players, one of whom had some quantified level of skill X at only one race, and one of whom had the same quantified level of skill X at all 3 races, and allowed the latter player to play random, he would be at an advantage. The player who picked his race would not be able to execute a proper opening build versus the race that the latter player spawned as. I'm not saying this is a realistic situation - randoming sets you back from where you could be, almost universally, as I (and others) have previously mentioned, but this is the hypothetical they're trying to get across to you to make you understand that randoming could be strong. So I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusions, as you didn't explain or back them up at all, but you are, sadly, simply wrong. | ||
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MVTaylor
United Kingdom2893 Posts
Three Rax all in, 4 gate, 7 Roach Rush Past the lower leagues the annoyance with Random players is that it forces their opponent to play a generic and safe build order until they scout their opponent. Imagine you spawn as Terran on Tal'Darim Altar. Your opponent is random so you go 12 rax, 13 gas and scout after depot. You find your opponent in the last spawn position and they've gone nexus first, YAY. It's pretty hard to go for a kill move on the nexus when you've gone 12rax, 13 gas so you either have to go with whatever you've got and hope to get the kill or chuck down the expo and be behind economically. If the Terran player had known it was Protoss from the start they could have happily have gone gasless FE and scouted after barracks and even though they'd have gone nexus first you'd be in a far better economic situation as you haven't wasted time getting and mining gas and having an SCV mining a bit longer instead of scouting. If the random player instantly announces their race upon the game starting then everyone is happy. But a random player who doesn't announce race, on tal'darim, is in the last location you scout and plays super greedy is one of the most annoying things. | ||
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Enearde
France265 Posts
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
I'm very interested in this post as I'm a Random player myself, basically in the exact same situation than the person who created that post (TOP 20 Plat EU and really willing to reach Master at some point). I didn't have time to read all the debate going on around here but I still gave it a good look and I think there is something most people don't talk about which is the disadvantages you get from being random. I'm not talking about having to play 9 match ups or having a less deep knowledge of each race, I'm talking about how people react to random players and how this affects our openings too. Let's take the example of an RvT game where the Random players spawns as Protoss. There are several maps where a regular PvT would allow the Protoss players to go Nexus first or some kinds of really FE. This makes sense on TDA for example where the Terran player is much likely hisself to go for a FE (maybe CC first or gazless 1 rax) knowing he is facing a Protoss opponent. Know let's put this back in the situation where the match up is still a PvT but, the Protoss player actually picked random. Would any Terran player go for this kind of build against an opponent who's race is unknown? I highly doubt it ... My point here is that by playing Random (whatever the reason for this choice may be), a player kind of forces hisself into having a 1 base tech ready soon in the game. Of course it's possible for a Random player to Nexus first or FFE against a Zerg player, and it's very likely to happen on most 4 players maps. But there are some scenarios (like that RvT turning into PvT) in which the Random player just won't have much choice but to start some kind of 1 base tech before expanding or going for an early aggression. In the end, Random players choose to play Random, may it be because they like the 3 races, because they want to cheese a lot, or because their grandma told them "RANDOM IS THE WAY". But before starting to generalize with things such as "All random players are cheesing noobs" you migh also consider that as random players, our number of choices in early game is also diminished. Not as much as for a Z/P/T players facing a Random one (he won't be able to choose a clear opening before he knows he's opponent's race), but still, we don't have that much choices either. | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:21 romelako wrote: One of the big problems with playing against a Random player is the lack of information that we're used to having at the beginning of the game. For a Zerg player, this can be quite problematic because a 15h is usually viable against Terran, risky versus Zerg and game-ending for Protoss. However, opening 14/14 can put you behind in economy if your Protoss opponent opens with an FFE or a confident Z opens up 15h. Also, 14/14 puts you in a weird position vs. 2-rax/bunker pressure because creep is nonexistent in the natural until later, meaning a spine crawler isn't an option. All in all, it sucks to play against a random player because you have to forego your economy just to figure out who you're up against. Do you like scout with like all your drones? | ||
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rycho
United States360 Posts
On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote: This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking. i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like: They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. when the first sentence of the post you quoted is: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated. | ||
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